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EPA vs. race cars, if you race and/or build cars, read this. #2008592
02/09/16 03:34 PM
02/09/16 03:34 PM
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Fulton County, PA
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CMcAllister Offline OP
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First of all, I know political discussions are frowned upon, BUT this has the potential to ruin the hobby, people's livelihood, aftermarket manufacturers, the entire sport. All of us could become criminals, simply for doing what we do.

https://www.sema.org/news/2016/02/08/epa-seeks-to-prohibit-conversion-of-vehicles-into-racecars

I suggest you read this and contact your representatives to express you thoughts on the matter.

Moparts, I try to respect the rules. Not trying to start a $%^& storm. This needs to be confronted head on. Thanks.

Last edited by CMcAllister; 02/10/16 01:29 PM. Reason: More specific title

If the results don't match the theory, change the theory.
Re: If you race and/or build cars, read this. [Re: CMcAllister] #2008599
02/09/16 03:46 PM
02/09/16 03:46 PM
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Nebraska
72Swinger Offline
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Only cure for this level of control is chronic lead poisoning to the morons in the EPA. They would rather the population be standing in a food line addicted to Opioids than be free to build whatever they want.


Mopar to the bone!!!
Re: If you race and/or build cars, read this. [Re: CMcAllister] #2008626
02/09/16 04:24 PM
02/09/16 04:24 PM
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North Central, Indiana
Roughbird72 Offline
pro stock
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*!%@#$ mad
The Employment Prevention Agency is at it again


72 Plymouth Roadrunner 11.08@123.25
Re: If you race and/or build cars, read this. [Re: Roughbird72] #2008655
02/09/16 04:56 PM
02/09/16 04:56 PM
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Between a rock & a hard place
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cudadoug Offline
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Here's my first question:

Based on this: QUOTE: "sale of certain emissions-related parts for use on converted vehicles illegal".

How will the EPA know if my new sheet metal intake and dominators are for a converted passenger car or my dragster??

So it seems that it's real impact would be on the chassis guy who does a back half and cage for a passenger car???? So then it would be illegal to build a Pro Street, Pro touring or show car, too???

Wow...the EPA is nuts. However, all of the gross polluting refineries in the area here can PURCHASE environmental "credits" for the appropriate amount of pollution they disburse.

Re: If you race and/or build cars, read this. [Re: CMcAllister] #2008658
02/09/16 05:05 PM
02/09/16 05:05 PM
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Canada
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CTD5.9 Offline
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These are the best quotes I can find that people have found in the proposed legislature, this is a huge document to go through.

Quote:
EPA is proposing in 40 CFR 1037.601(a)(3) to clarify that the Clean Air Act does not allow any person to disable, remove, or render inoperative (i.e., tamper with) emission controls on a certified motor vehicle for purposes of competition.


and

Quote:
Certified motor vehicles and motor vehicle engines and their emission control devices must remain in their certified configuration even if they are used solely for competition or if they become nonroad vehicles or engines”. 80 Fed. Reg. 40138, 40565 (July 13, 2015).


Wouldn't this still allow you to race a non emissions certified car? and possibly a purpose built car like a pro mod or a dragster?

I would guess that they are attacking chips and cat removal mods.

Re: If you race and/or build cars, read this. [Re: CMcAllister] #2008673
02/09/16 05:32 PM
02/09/16 05:32 PM
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Las Vegas
Al_Alguire Offline
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I am pretty sure removing any federally mandated emissions control equipment is already illegal in the first place. Stuff like this is why you should support SEMA and its member organization. Oh yeah that includes the NHRA


"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."

"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
Re: If you race and/or build cars, read this. [Re: CMcAllister] #2008950
02/10/16 12:08 AM
02/10/16 12:08 AM
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Oregon
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AndyF Offline
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EPA would lose that lawsuit. They don't have jurisdiction once the car isn't on a Federal roadway. The current EPA admin is trying very hard to expand their control. They have lost almost every lawsuit so far and will continue to lose them as long as the Supreme Court membership stays the same. We'll see what happens with the next admin. Could get worse or could get better.

Re: If you race and/or build cars, read this. [Re: CMcAllister] #2009205
02/10/16 01:43 PM
02/10/16 01:43 PM
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Fulton County, PA
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CMcAllister Offline OP
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Link to a good article in one of the online trade publications...

http://theshopmag.com/news/epa-seeks-prohibit-conversion-vehicles-racecars

This will be finalized in July. Sign petitions if you like, but you must call or email your congress person NOW.


I appreciate everyone keeping this thread civil and on subject. Let's not say anything to get it axed.


If the results don't match the theory, change the theory.
Re: If you race and/or build cars, read this. [Re: CTD5.9] #2009209
02/10/16 01:47 PM
02/10/16 01:47 PM
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Fulton County, PA
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CMcAllister Offline OP
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Fulton County, PA
Originally Posted By rednuck


Wouldn't this still allow you to race a non emissions certified car? and possibly a purpose built car like a pro mod or a dragster?

I would guess that they are attacking chips and cat removal mods.



Chips and "test pipes" were addressed years ago. This goes way beyond that.


If the results don't match the theory, change the theory.
Re: If you race and/or build cars, read this. [Re: Al_Alguire] #2009242
02/10/16 02:52 PM
02/10/16 02:52 PM
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Fulton County, PA
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CMcAllister Offline OP
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Fulton County, PA
Originally Posted By Al_Alguire
I am pretty sure removing any federally mandated emissions control equipment is already illegal in the first place. Stuff like this is why you should support SEMA and its member organization. Oh yeah that includes the NHRA


As I understand it, modifications to or removing emissions control equipment is illegal for vehicles registered and driven on public roads. Always has been. But there has always been a "legal for off road use only" exemption for race cars and other off road competition and recreational use vehicles that were once federally certified, but are no longer used on public highways, and the parts and pieces used to build such vehicles. That was Congress' intent. EPA intends to eliminate that exemption.

Think no more big blocks in slant six Dusters, Stockers or Super Stockers that were not factory race cars, fast "street" cars built on OE bodies, etc. In other words, your '73 Dart or '82 Camaro or '89 Fox body Mustang has to remain as it was built and certified for federal emissions.

I have no idea of what they think will happen to all of the cars this will affect. Anyone who has dealt with trying to get a car inspected that had the AIR pump or the cat removed or failed an emissions inspection and had to either fix it, junk it or pay some kind of penalty, can use their imagination. I can assure you, dealing with the EPA will not be like dealing with your buddy down at the shop when you get your state inspection done.


If the results don't match the theory, change the theory.
Re: If you race and/or build cars, read this. [Re: CMcAllister] #2009254
02/10/16 03:01 PM
02/10/16 03:01 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,304
Las Vegas
Al_Alguire Offline
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I understand the issues believe me. Removing that equipment has always been a federal violation period. Taking off an air pump, transplanting a Bb where a SB was. Building a HP motor and putting it in a newer car, all those things have been federally illegal for ions. That is nothing new. This does go quite a bit further but also echoes much of the standing law already. I also second what Andy says, these cases routinely get thrown our of court as the EPA oversteps its authority. In many states Smog inspections are state administered at state facilities so no good guy deal there. Most also have a cap on dollar amounts needed to receive a waiver. The key is these are state administered programs not federally run programs.


Like I said before this is the biggest reason to support SEMA and its member organizations. They are the lobbying body for this kind of legislation. Calling your Congressman or Senator is a good idea too, but not sure it will matter given how things are done in this city anymore.
I have had to deal with the EPA directly for years in my job working in and for the USAF. There is no reasoning with them, it is there way or the highway, meaning their interpretation of the law as they choose to read it at that particular time by that particular inspector. One of the reasons they loose so many suits is the inherent overstepping of their authority. Very well known in industries that deal directly with the EPA that they rule the world or at least feel they do.


"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."

"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
Re: If you race and/or build cars, read this. [Re: CMcAllister] #2009362
02/10/16 05:32 PM
02/10/16 05:32 PM
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Ontario, Canada
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Stanton Offline
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It seems to me that the EPA could make a bigger dent in emissions if they passed a law to cancel the annual Superbowl. How much fuel is consumed by people travelling to the game, travelling to other locations to watch the game, etc, etc..

Re: If you race and/or build cars, read this. [Re: Stanton] #2009406
02/10/16 06:16 PM
02/10/16 06:16 PM
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Northern OH
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rapom Offline
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Give an inch and they'll take a mile.

Re: If you race and/or build cars, read this. [Re: rapom] #2009427
02/10/16 06:55 PM
02/10/16 06:55 PM
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Mt. Vernon, Ohio
dartman366 Offline
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and of course they have no clue how many job's that they would kill if they succeed in making these decision's stick,,,where do they find these people anyway. shruggy


Light travels faster than the speed of sound,,,this is why some people seem bright untill you hear them speak.
Re: EPA vs. race cars, if you race and/or build cars, read this. [Re: CMcAllister] #2009440
02/10/16 07:31 PM
02/10/16 07:31 PM
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Posts: 149
It's Complicated
HDNMOPERS Offline
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It's Complicated
Yeah you can bet everyone at the EPA is driving electric cars. Wearing hemp cloths made by hand not from some textile sweatshop powered by burning old tires in some foreign country. They raise hell about nuclear power plants. But they sure don't care about 6000 servicemen on a nuclear powered aircraft carrier. Where they work and live around the reactor 24hrs a day. Its like PEETA pee ons. What the hell do those people eat and drink. You can't tell me there ain't one of them hasn't sneaked off in their leather shoes and as a hamburger. With a EPA guy driving them to the Mcdonald's in a diesel truck with a tuner on it. LOL

Last edited by HDNMOPERS; 02/10/16 07:32 PM.
Re: If you race and/or build cars, read this. [Re: dartman366] #2009441
02/10/16 07:32 PM
02/10/16 07:32 PM
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fullmetaljacket Offline
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Divide and conquer.
First the newbies(anything made during the so called emissions era) and then they'll group the oldies into a corner like cattle and try and slaughter them.
"People shouldn't be afraid of their Government, Governments should be afraid of their people"

Re: If you race and/or build cars, read this. [Re: CMcAllister] #2009450
02/10/16 07:53 PM
02/10/16 07:53 PM
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Carson City, Nevada
Biginchmopar Offline
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OK ladies and gentlemen for one you should always be concerned if the EPA gets involved in any matter. I work for the State of Nevada Bureau of Air Pollution Control. We work with the Clean Air Act daily and are in constant contact with EPA.
Like Al said by supporting SEMA and NHRA you are doing a lot if you add a call to your local Senator and Governor you will help the cause even more.

Do what you can to get your voice heard! We all love the sport of drag racing and modifying cars, if you want to keep your freedoms call, vote, and most of all pay attention. Taking action on these kind of matters help win lawsuits against the EPA and believe me we need a lot more wins.

Re: If you race and/or build cars, read this. [Re: CMcAllister] #2009478
02/10/16 08:46 PM
02/10/16 08:46 PM
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western pennsylvania
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Not to worry guys,The Supreme Court struck down the EPA and Obama Administration's ability to enforce the New Clean Air Act yesterday. I doubt if this part of the law will be able to survive their scrutiny either. http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/10/us/pol...tions.html?_r=0

Re: If you race and/or build cars, read this. [Re: CMcAllister] #2009567
02/10/16 11:23 PM
02/10/16 11:23 PM
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Las Vegas
Al_Alguire Offline
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FWIW Emissions controls started on 1967, so don't think this would only apply to later model stuff...Just saying


"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."

"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
Re: If you race and/or build cars, read this. [Re: b1dartsport] #2009575
02/10/16 11:33 PM
02/10/16 11:33 PM
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Illinois
gearhead01 Offline
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Originally Posted By b1dartsport
Not to worry guys,The Supreme Court struck down the EPA and Obama Administration's ability to enforce the New Clean Air Act yesterday. I doubt if this part of the law will be able to survive their scrutiny either. http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/10/us/pol...tions.html?_r=0


That case/issue was regarding coal burning for electric generation.

Different law than the racecar issue.

The EPA has more rules/regulations in multiple layers it is near impossible to keep up what they are doing.

That is how SEMA missed it initially. Buried in non related paragraphs to camouflage it.

John


1971 Satellite Sebring Plus - 14.46 @ 95.43
1977 Road Runner - N/B 11.02@ 119 Drag Radials
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