If the regular pressure is high will that cause
the shift points to be high.. I think it does being
that the governor has to match that pressure plus
this has the throttle pressure added on to the regulator
pressure ... also being this is a stock VB but with the
shift improver kit for the 518 it doesnt like to down shift
even when I come to a full stop.. I have to manually pull
it into low then push the shifter up into drive... thanks
for any help....anyone want to BUY a car

When you raise the line pressure the throttle pressure also rises. Since the governor pressure has to overcome throttle pressure in order for the upshift to occur, raising the line pressure will raise the shift points (all else being the same).

Failure to downshift at a complete stop can be either a stuck shift valve or a faulty governor....only to tell is to hook up a test gauge to the governor pressure test port; anything over 2 psi at a standstill is a faulty governor.

Thanks John.. I figure as much on the line pressure..
as to the governor.. I thought for sure its clean and
not stuck.. but that might be on the other trans I have..
if the governor is stuck why is it shifting.. but I do
have to lift off the throttle to shift..I will put the
gauges on it tomorrow

The governor may not be fully retracting and is letting some pressure bleed through.

As a funny FYI - a local trans shops fix for a sticky 518 governor was to put one of the snake oils in the fluid, and "rattle" the governor by tossing it into park at about 10MPH. I'm guessing that particular step wasn't included in the shift kit instructions.

All Ive ever had by stuffing any trans into park
at low speed was the ratcheting of the parking paw
till it locked into park.. I dont understand what
would be accomplished by that.. other than ripping
the park gear or the paw apart.. I might try the
snake oil if I do show 2+ psi at the port... I had
this trans gone over by a shop AFTER I went through
it.. just to be safe since I've had so much of a issue
with these.. this was the first one I did myself.. the
guy said everything looked great but he felt the regulator
spring was way high.. he guessed it would be about 200#
as a guess.. all that went into the trans was a shift
improvement kit from trans-go.. I do remember a spring change
but didnt think it was the regulator pressure spring.. so
I'm not sure since I myself didnt put it in

Mike is this the 2nd trans? Same valve body, different trans, same problem?

If so points to the valve body doesn't it?

I'm loosing track of whats what.. 3 trans from you
and then I bought another.. it didnt have drive(if I remember
right) then this one I did and had it checked.. this one is
the one that was the original but I went through so its
the same VB... I can swap in the other stock VB.. but I
have a couple of things to try first... when you changed
the stuff in the VB.. what spring did you change.. was that
the regulator spring or ?.. if it was then I might just
change the spring from the stock VB or change the whole VB

That would be very high for line pressure in a forward gear. Although the Griner valve bodies I used allowed over 200 psi, I ran mine at 165 psi. For what you are doing, I would think 120-140 would be high enough?

Thanks Jim.. I'm gonna put the gauges on it

Yup. Think of where the park gear and the governor body is located. Both the parking pawl gear and the governor body are a part of the output shaft. The vibration from the ratcheting of the pawl teeth is what "rattles" the sticky governor, along with the snake oil. You don't let it grind to a stop - it's a quick in and out. I'm not blaming anybody for not wanting to try it - just saying I've seen it done, and it worked. Like I said - I doubt if you will see that tip in any manual, but I know of several techs that swear by it. Sure is easier to try than ripping out a t/case and the O/D extension housing. If it doesn't work, it had to come apart, anyways.

Glad somebody finally brought up the "park trick". I'm guilty as charged and have seen it work more times than I care to think about. Trans tech showed me in my early years.

I did the park thing YEARS ago as a young wrench BUT it was
more of a OH damn.. then pulled it out.. but there wasnt
anything wrong with the trans... I guess its worth a try
if it is stuck for a last chance before pulling it... but
I am looking elsewhere right now.. I think I'm gonna pull
the whole VB today and put in my other one and try that

I have heard from a trans guy that if you have
the car (on the hoist) running in forward gear
then hit reverse it will spike the pressure and
free up a stuck governor... any true to this or
has anyone tried it...(about 20-30 MPH in forward)
EDIT
I am giving thought to cutting the chassis in the
drive shaft loop area so I can pull the tailshaft
off to get at the governor... then I will set it
up so I can pin it back on... but I'll leave it off
till I have it all figured out then put it back on

That is one of those "tech tips" you post, knowing that you will probably get beaten up over. Sorta like the old dumping water down the carb to get rid of cylinder carbon deposits - some people cringe at it, others swear by it.

Mike, as to the "rattling" of the governor - about 10MPH, toss in park for a quick one thousand one count, then back into a forward gear. Too fast and the pawl just skims over the teeth, too slow and it will engage and lock the tires.

I have the Rampage up on the hoist... I was thinking
about cutting some tubes to get the tail shaft off...
thats not gonna happen.. there isnt enough room to
slide it back to get it off.. so I'll have to try the
park or reverse thing to see if it'll free up... if
it doesnt... I pull the engine/trans AGAIN... this is
getting REAL OLD.. I am gonna change valve bodies
tomorrow to see if it helps the up shift... this thing
is getting closer to the burn pile
EDIT
does anyone know of a trans dyno in the Detroit area

If you need to pull the motor/trans again I would be done with the OD deal. Put a 727 in it and don't sweat the RPM.

My junk knocks down 13-14MPG spinning 3500RPM on drag week for 4 years now. Its quieter and feels more "happy" then it does at lower RPM. If I put an overdrive in I would just have to drive faster lol(not that it would be a bad thing).

Too late for that.. I would have to cut out a bunch of
tubes to relocate the trans mount... I have all the gears
its just the upshift and downshift.. if I want to down
shift I can pull the shifter... the upshift I think is
the valve body but way too high of rpms

You need to assess your situation from outside of the box you're stuck in. First, yes. Try the valve body. But if you need to pull the trans again, change what needs to be changed to get the trans out on its own. You have the skill, the equipment and the time to do it.
You can't tell me that after all you've been through, that it would not be worth some extra time to make things easier on yourself.
Sorry for the tough love, but damn...

That ISNT gonna happen.. I would have to cut the WHOLE interior
out and start over.. plus I would have to cut part of the
dash(lower part) then cut out my seat mounts and the drive
shaft loop and the X-bracing on the chassis... I built this
thinking I wouldnt be pulling the trans... IF I could move
the whole interior I wouldnt have room for myself.. hell I
had to move the engine/trans over 1" to the right to give me
just a bit of room..... so NOPE none of that is gonna happen..
if needed I'll pull the engine/trans one again.. but I
will find a trans dyno to test it before it goes back in..
I can see you have never built a SMALL car... I deal in
.010" for clearance on a lot of the stuff

I put a gauge on the governor port today.. it shows
zero pressure in gear at zero speed... as I increased
the speed it shows the pressure going up.. I brought
it back to zero speed.. showed zero pressure.. as I
brought it up in speed again it showed zero pressure this
time... whats going on here.. also what port can I
read the regulator pressure.... thanks for any help

I would put a manual valvebody in it and never look back.

Clicking gears is no bother on the street and gives me something to do when driving around.

I have a stock VB that I'm gonna put in it.. but
I want to know whats going on with the governor
pressure first... the VB in it now has a Transgo
shift improver kit .. other than that its stock

Line pressure test port is the plug in the middle "hump" on the passenger side.

Thanks John... what kind of pressure should I see..
and I assume that is the regulator pressure... in my
book it doesnt show a pressure for the front servo port
also.. any idea why my test didnt repeat itself.. just
came up with zero pressure

Dang that sux, I hope you get a handle on it.

So do I.. or I'll burn this thing to the ground...
John stated that it should be zero pressure with
zero speed.. it is but the pressure didnt climb
the second and third times I tried.. I dont understand
that it doesnt repeat

Mike can you get the trans tailshaft extention housing off while in the car? if you can then take it off and disassemble the govenor and clean it, sounds like it's sticking or it's got a piece of trash in it, and you don't want to hear what a trans shop told me how to fix it with out taking it apart,,,it worked but not reccomended. LOL

No way in hell to get it off... I spent a hour trying
to get a fitting into the governor port today and found
it couldnt be done.. I ended up pulling the carpet and
drilled a 1" hole in the tunnel so I could get my readings..
I did do the drive to park and drive to reverse thing...
nothing changed(I assume that is what you were gonna say
about the fix)

LOL yep, scared the bejeezus out of me, the only other thing I could suggest is dump a can of Sea Foam trans cleaner in it and drive it, that stuff will help clean them up and take any varnish and gunk out of them, had a Aries wagon once with the 2.2 auto in it and had some issues with it shifting and not shifting into 1st at a traffic light,put that stuff in and drove it for about 250-300 miles and never looked back, still worked good when I sold it 2 years later.

Sent a pm.
Gov pressure port for 518 is high/back

I didnt get your PM

Any other suggestions to what might be wrong with
this thing.. I'm gonna change the VB today with
the stock one I have
EDIT
Whats the correct procedure to adjust the TP cable
just so I know

I just got off the phone with John Cope.. glad
I talked with him... I was gonna put this other
VB on which is a non lock up trans.. the one in
the car is a lock up style that I changed out the
pump and input shaft on.. well the non lock up VB
wont work on a lock up case... so that takes care
of me changing the VB.. he suggested a trick on
freeing the governor which I will try today.. its
blowing air into the governor test port while the
engine is running.. it works sometimes if its just
small trash... but as he also said.. if its eating
itself up and putting trash in there it will just
happen again(which I knew).. so for today I'll put
the gauge on the accumulator port and get some readings
and try the air pressure on the governor port.. I think
I will drop the pan to check for trash.. I have a drain
plug but I want to see whats on the magnet... he also
said that A&A makes a manual shift VB for these.. so if
it doesnt have trash in it and the VB just doesnt want
to work right I will order the manual shift VB so it
eliminates the need for the governor
EDIT
Thanks John for the info

Mike,
If there is no pressure coming out of the governor at speed, it's because the governor weights are stuck blocking the flow completely.

From looking at the flow diagrams, the rear clutch feed in the case is the same circuit as the governor feed. Meaning if the governor didn't have any flow going to it, the rear clutch wouldn't apply either.

The problem does not appear to be in the valve body.

Didn't this thing have a stuck/burred governor weight in it the last time we took it apart? I remember you taking it home to fix before we put it back together. Is this the same trans, or the junk yard trans now in the car? (Easy way to tell... is it painted black? Or did you paint the junk yard trans black?)

If the governor pressure doesn't rise with speed, it won't make the automatic 1/2 shift like it should.

This is the one you did originally.. yes it had
a stuck/burred governor which I did fix.. I know
it moved freely.. I made damn sure of it...both
trans are black.. I painted the JY one also after
I cleaned it up

The "no repeat" on the governor pressure test is baffling, don't have a clue to a cause.

The front servo test port will only show pressure when the trans is in 3rd gear and should be the same as line pressure or a little lower. Line pressure will vary with the throttle, 50-100 psi....you can disconnect the linkage and operate the TP lever by hand to raise/lower the line pressure at idle.

Right now I've spent a hour and a half trying to
get a fitting into the accumulator port to get a
reading on the line pressure.. so far I havent
got the fitting in.. I had to take a break before
I burn that thing.. my hand and my foot have cramped
up... a word to people... DONT BUILD LITTLE CARS..
Im getting ready to pull the pass header just to help
getting to the port

....and people laugh when I tell them the main purpose of going to a tube K member, rack steering, coil overs, and removable section of floor is because I'm just that lazy and it makes the car a breeze to work on! Sounds like a real bear P!

It dont F-ing matter.. it has to come out..I
pulled the pan.. its got a pile of crap in it..
4 miles on it...........its getting torched

Mike sorry to hear that thing is still giving you fits. Hope you get it figured out so you can enjoy it. Like they say, if it was easy everybody would do it.

if your not using a manual valve body i'd look at the kickdown linkage. i've had this problem before and it was always a kickdown adjustment.

After thinking about this.. I believe I have brought
this on myself.. I never had the conv cleaned out and
all my problems seem to be trash getting into the
system... I have all the gears right now but trash is
sticking stuff(VB and gov).. I chanced it the first time
and didnt have it cleaned out... its the same conv in all
of the builds

Hopefully this will be my last question...the
trans I have on the bench is the JY one that I
changed the pump on.. that trans didnt have reverse..
now when I opened it up I see that both of the nylon
rings on the input shaft were torn up... would this
be the cause of no reverse.. I think it is but I want
to ask and make sure.. everything looks like new in
it.. all the fibers and steels.. everything... I opened
up the OD and those look great also... so am I correct
to think the nylon rings would be the reverse issue...
thanks much guys... Im sending out the conv to have it
checked and cleaned.. I will clean out the cooler and lines

Anyone?

do they seal the supply for the front clutch?

I've always used the steel stepped rings.

Yes the rings will cause no rev. and 3rd ask me how I know lol.
P.S check the 3rd gear clutch pack to make sure it didn't burn the fibers.

I think they do.. but I would have to grab my book
in the shop and follow the hyd path

Exact dactly!

Thanks... the clutch looks like new.. still has
the writing on them
EDIT
I only drove it about 50 feet when I seen it didnt
have reverse

If you are talking about the small rings (about 1" in diameter) that are on the input shaft, they are the feed for the rear clutch that is used in all forward gears, not reverse. If you are talking about the larger rings that go on the pump, those feed the front clutch which is used in high and reverse.

I'm talking the 1" or so on the front of the input
shaft... I thought that ended up messing up reverse..
I was sure I seen this same thing on a 727.. but I
dont know much

Mike, the 2 sealing rings that you describe on the input shaft seal on the inside of the front pump housing and are for the rear clutch, which is applied in all forward gears but not in reverse. There are 2 rings mounted on the front pump housing that seal to the inside of the front clutch drum which apply the front clutch in direct, O/D, and reverse. In reverse, the front clutch and the rear band is applied.

You should be able to check both clutches sealing rings and both drums piston seals by air checking the front pump and drum assembly on the bench.

Right now all I know is it didnt have reverse and
the only thing I seen wrong is the 2 nylon seal
rings... I'll look tomorrow what the part name is

Sorry I thought you where talking about the stator support

Nope... the 2 seals on the input shaft.. the
reaction shaft support has 2 metal locking rings
which is on the back of the pump..they are fine..
looks like these 2 seals, seal on the ID of the
reaction shaft support

if you changed frt drums and frt pump from originals and mis-matched parts-like we used to do, you could have problems. we used to disassemble trans and save parts and would use a front/rear drum or stator support without checking to be exact same part. we shot ourselves in foot. now we check all parts by measuring individual parts or using all parts that are kept together. john kunkel had/has a pictorial reference of parts that is very good at determining correct parts.get it if you can. also we now air check parts on bench before putting in trans. somethings to remember are very hard but jk's pictorial is very good at helping determine correct parts. would like to see jk put together and sell picture book. would be great reference material. we have also talked to john cope and rick allison on odd ball stuff and those fellows are both gentlemen and very knowledgable. thanks to both and also john kunkel.

Mike, check out the replacement pump.

Years ago my dad had a 727 rebuilt for his truck. The builder was a low buck trans guy, who replaced the "worn out" pump. When we got it installed, it didn't have reverse. It seems to me IIRC it also needed a lot of throttle input to get it to move in forward gears. The builder couldn't find anything wrong with it and basically told us we were SOL. We tore that trans apart at least a half dozen times, and everything looked right, until I noticed the front drum was lightly rubbing the back of the reaction shaft support. It turned out that either the builder ordered a lock up pump for a non lock up trans, or the pump was incorrectly boxed and he didn't catch it or know the difference. We found a used pump in our stash, put it in, and the trans works to this day.
I know yours is a lock up. I'm just wondering how our experience would play out in reverse if your pump was actually for a non lock up trans. Could be worthwhile looking in to.

Figure anything out yet, Mike?

Just got the final parts today... I'm putting it back together
tomorrow.. but I am sending out the conv to Ultimate in a few
days to have it cleaned out and looked at
EDIT
I think I have this figured out.. I think with the
rings on the input shaft messed up that it had just
enough pressure to go forward(but I never left the
drive way) but not enough pressure for reverse

As we discussed earlier - the 2 small sealing rings that install on the input shaft, that seal the input shaft to the inside of the pump, CAN NOT cause a reverse apply failure, simply because they are the seals for the rear clutch, which is not applied in reverse.

If the 2 rings on the outside of the reaction shaft that seal to the inside of the direct clutch (front) drum fail to seal fail, the front clutch won't apply properly, and you will lose reverse, direct (3rd) and O/D.

I air check my clutch applies both as a rear/front clutch/pump assembly, and again once the pump is in but before I install the V/B.

I was measuring the end play yesterday and I didnt
like what I had.. the spec is .022-.091.. I was at
.085... I wanted to get back to about .045 or so..
I have the thickest thrust washer on the back of
the pump.. I am going to change the triangled shape
one on the front of the intermediate shaft.. with
that one I can tighten it up by .020... this would
put me at about .065 end play.. I can deal with that
I have the hardest time to get all the clutches to
line up when I drop the forward drum in.. I spent
over a hour to get the last disc to line up... it
need to drop down a little farther into the lugs..
what a PITA

I found some issues today... with the help of Scott..
the pump support(stator support was the wrong size for
the input shaft rings... the input shaft is 1.175" and
the support ID is for a 1.240 input shaft... but I had
already planned to go back with all the stock components
from this trans.. so I might not have understood WHY it had
issues.. but measuring it I now think I know why... the input
shaft seal ring didnt come close to sealing.. and when the
sealed blew out I had enough pressure to roll forward but not
enough pressure for reverse.. it had enough pressure to barely
roll in forward... at least this is what I think.. all I did
on this trans was change the pump assm... but didnt know there
was 2 different input shaft sizes... now I am learning that
the early 518(non lock up) which was from 88-91 COULD have
either input shaft.. in 92 they went with the lock up conv
and they changed to the larger input with the hole down the
middle for the conv.... still learning... anyways.. I put it
back together today with the original stock pump.. plus Scott
informed me he thought I had to have the output shaft on to
measure input in play.. he was right.. now I'm on the low end
of the spec.. which will be fine...tomorrow I will sit down
and go through the valve body step by step to clean it.. the
conv goes out Monday

My sources say the larger shaft and 1.245" sealing rings started in '94.

Ok... thanks John

What's strange is that I saw a non lock up pump with my own eyes today at Mikes with a 1.245" reaction shaft. Not sure how a 94+ pump made it into non lock up form.

Weird...

Scott... I pulled it all back apart so I could do
a final assm on it... I didnt have the low band
bracket in it from the beginning... so back apart and
I ended up pulling the OD back apart being it didnt
want to line up.... total time for the reassmbly of every
thing was 1 hour and 10 minutes including the OD tear down
and back together... I'm becoming a pro on this junk.. now
to figure out issues that cause problems

splines in the OD units often did that when you'd remove them...... always hated that.



Did you find anyplace with a trans dyno?



Did you tear that shifter down and "fix" it so the detents would line up?

I found the one and ONLY dyno in Mich.. but they
wont dyno any trans that they dont build.. plus
their dyno is pretty limited for what it will do..
I will look at the shifter.. but it was working
right... but I'm thinking of buying a new shifter
with a lower shift arm.. I would like a real short
one.. this one is new but its a old unit thats obsolete
now

I pulled the trans apart that was in the car last
time that didnt like to up shift or down shift...
this is the one that I had a shop check over for
me... it had all sorts of rust on the steel parts..
like there was about a 1/2" to 3/4" of water in it..
I know damn a well it wasnt like that when I put it
together... well that was a waste of money and time