BB 727 woes
#1953791
11/18/15 05:45 PM
11/18/15 05:45 PM
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Volare4life
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So I finally got the 400BB in the volare running like a beast, but now I am having issues with the trans, reverse is really sluggish to the point of high rpms to move, and 3rd gear sounds like its free revving. I modified the valve body per the transgo TF-2 instructions for the street strip with shift command, I know that the valve body is good to go, since its the same one i had in my boosted slant and that thing was a beast, and shifted gears just fine, I am thinking that maybe the front band might need tightening up, since the transgo instructions say tighten till snug then back off 2 turns.....whats snug ? lol any advice or help is greatly appreciated, first and second shift no issues in auto and manual mode ( courtesy of my hurst V-matic 2) but no thrid just a high whine and like i already said reverse works but high rpms to make her move. also installed my own cable kickdown, used the buchillon for inspiration, and adjusted per there instructions,
Thanks, -Mike
The answers are out there you just got to look hard enough
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Re: BB 727 woes
[Re: Volare4life]
#1953820
11/18/15 06:49 PM
11/18/15 06:49 PM
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Polarapete
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In my world "snug" is more than "Finger tight" and less than "Tight". Now I don't mean to be a smart ass, it is just a matter of feel.
If you had the trans out of the car you probably would roll over the front drum and tighten the band until it dragged or even would not roll anymore, then back off the 2 or 3 turns on the adjusting screw and tighten the locknut. And do the same on the rear band. Make sure the filter screen is clean and that the fluid is up to proper level cause you may just be lacking fluid.
1986 Dodge Ramcharger 440 2wd, Bracket Racer Under Construction 1998 Ram 2500 QuadCab, new daily driver. 2008 Honda Element 2014 Carry-On 7x14 Cargo Trailer
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Re: BB 727 woes
[Re: Volare4life]
#1953956
11/18/15 10:20 PM
11/18/15 10:20 PM
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Volare4life
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dvw- Yes i did install the cupped orifice plug in the trans, I was told the trans functioned right up to being pulled and stored, I never ran it with the stock valve body, just my modified one. Not rebuilt to my knowledge
Polarapete- that's exactly how I did it with the trans out and doing the transgo mods, also had my handy "torqueflite A-727" by Carl H. Munroe at my side since he does the exact mods in the transgo kit in the book, I triple checked the fluid and the levels looked good, maybe a bit above the dipstick full reading, I don't think a bit over the line could cause these issues, and from what ya'll have said and a bit more research its really looking like front clutch issues, gonna readjust the front band and see if it helps at all, I am hoping i might have been on the loose side of snug,
-Mike
The answers are out there you just got to look hard enough
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Re: BB 727 woes
[Re: Volare4life]
#1954058
11/19/15 12:39 AM
11/19/15 12:39 AM
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Volare4life
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Should I remove that orifice plug when i drop the valve body ? I am pretty sure I didn't have it in my 904/ turbo 225 setup, yea just read in the instructions, ONLY for 727's, so is it really a necessary item to install ? book says only about 25-30 psi, will that be enough psi to test ?
-Mike
The answers are out there you just got to look hard enough
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Re: BB 727 woes
[Re: Volare4life]
#1954363
11/19/15 04:47 PM
11/19/15 04:47 PM
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JohnRR
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I was told the trans functioned right up to being pulled and stored, I never ran it with the stock valve body, just my modified one. Not rebuilt to my knowledge -Mike So you know basically NOTHING about this trans . The symptoms point to a problem with the front clutch pack, taking the plug out is not going to fix it. I see a crash course in rebuilding a 727 in your future.
running up my post count some more .
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Re: BB 727 woes
[Re: Volare4life]
#1955447
11/21/15 05:46 PM
11/21/15 05:46 PM
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Volare4life
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well I adjusted the kickdown band took it out, had reverse, but no third at all, then once it got warm ( driving around the neighborhood) still no third and reverse started slipped and shuddering, so it looks like shes gonna be coming out.............not fun in a cramped Volare, torn down and rebuilt.... but first to test the front clutch pressure feed hole just to eliminate that, any recommendations for who to go through for parts to rebuild the trans ? I really wasn't looking to sink a ton into it, I have been planning to swap a T-56 in come tax return in January/February time frame, other wise its gonna be an automatic for a bit longer,
-Mike
The answers are out there you just got to look hard enough
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Re: BB 727 woes
[Re: Volare4life]
#1956285
11/23/15 02:33 AM
11/23/15 02:33 AM
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Volare4life
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any benefit if I go with 5 thin red vs 4 normal thickness clutches ?Ho w do you know if you have a high gear drum ? Also I am leaning more towards A&A for the parts, but also hear a lot of great things about CRT, but then again turbo action is local to me, anyone have experience with the turbo action tranz box rebuild kit ? Also the A&A kit is only $150 vs the TA tranz box at $314 (on jegs), judging by the description they include the same parts,
-Mike
The answers are out there you just got to look hard enough
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Re: BB 727 woes
[Re: Volare4life]
#1958987
11/27/15 10:32 PM
11/27/15 10:32 PM
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RapidRobert
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this might not even apply to the prob at hand but a FYI I could not get my bands to torque to 72 INCH lbs (then back off several turns of course). I kept going tighter and tighter to where I knew I had to stop & regroup before I broke something. Kunkel had me set the gap(s) to 1/4 and 5/16 (I forget which was the front and rear) as that is the bottom line just like valve lash. (904) Holler how things turn out.
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Re: BB 727 woes
[Re: Volare4life]
#1959030
11/27/15 11:52 PM
11/27/15 11:52 PM
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Volare4life
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I'll post a pic of the band, but there is no deformation or cracks, the band material still looks good, slight discoloration on the steel band itself, but i think that is from sitting the "god knows how long it had been, owner swapped it for an 833 xx years ago....
Last edited by Volare4life; 11/27/15 11:53 PM.
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Re: BB 727 woes
[Re: Volare4life]
#1959365
11/28/15 07:01 PM
11/28/15 07:01 PM
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JohnRR
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How thick is that washer on the front pump ?
Those waffle clutches are trashed ...
Is it just me or does the front drum not look fully seated in the sun shell , what was your end play ?
running up my post count some more .
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Re: BB 727 woes
[Re: Volare4life]
#1959854
11/29/15 07:26 PM
11/29/15 07:26 PM
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Pan shot was with brake cleaner sprayed into it when I cleaned te valve body, fluid that came out was red and didn't smell burnt.I will get measurements and air check the piston and repot back
The answers are out there you just got to look hard enough
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Re: BB 727 woes
[Re: Volare4life]
#1959918
11/29/15 09:37 PM
11/29/15 09:37 PM
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John_Kunkel
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Discoloration on the front band is the anti-rust dip.
The fiber thrust washer on the front pump should be thicker, normally the thickest selective thrust washer goes on the pump.
Remove the sealing rings from the pump, hook them and insert into the front drum to check their fit. If they're loose in their bore, leakage might explain the toasted front clutches. Also, check the bore of the drum for deep wear where the rings ride.
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Re: BB 727 woes
[Re: Volare4life]
#1960019
11/30/15 12:19 AM
11/30/15 12:19 AM
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Volare4life
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the front thin washer that looks like it has a shoulder ( is it supposed to ?) measured .0155" thick, between the front and rear clutch packs that thick chunker measured .0825" thick, the rear clutch pack air checked good, front..... I could hear air hissing, not loud at only 30 psi, but its definitely was leaking out the hole in the front drum that the input shaft goes through had two blackish wear marks from the rings, couldn't feel any grooving, maybe new rings will seal better ? worst case new reaction shaft ? bushable ? I haven't broken the front clutch down completely to check the seal, but I did count nine springs in the drum, all the bushings in the tail stock, front pump etc looked good except for all the copper/bronze floater bushings on the planetaries, most of the tabs are cracked, like the steel looks cracked, i will have to bust out the lighted magnifying glass tomorrow and see for sure. Speaking of planetaries, are they supposed to look like the units pictured above ? I know they are cast aluminium, but the machining is crap from factory !!!! Input and output shafts looked real good though, no scoring or damage, and the ball bearing on the output shaft has no play, like newness Also when i pulled the front pump the gasket between the pump and the bell had shellac on it, the bolts had shellac on them, is that safe to use on the gasket in the trans ? I have used shellac before, and quite love it, just not a place I thought I would use it
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Re: BB 727 woes
[Re: Volare4life]
#1960289
11/30/15 04:25 PM
11/30/15 04:25 PM
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JohnRR
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I can't see the pictures here at work , but that front washer should not have a shoulder and if that measurement is right then you have a problem there , it's too thin. What is the thickness of the shouldered part?
I'm going to stick with my original assessment that the front input shaft and from drum assembly were not fully seated and the front drum wore away the front washer/spacer because it was forced against it.
No gasket sealer is needed on the front pump gasket or on the bolts ... the bolt holes are dry ... I have never had a leak with a plain paper gasket, the o ring around the pump and the correct pump bolt sealing washers.
running up my post count some more .
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Re: BB 727 woes
[Re: Volare4life]
#1960619
12/01/15 01:02 AM
12/01/15 01:02 AM
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Volare4life
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its the same thickness, its like the washer had a smaller inner diameter and was forced down creating the lip/flange/shoulder what ever you want to call it, its right about the same thickness as the rest of the washer, I tried my best to get them to seat together and its the best i could come up with in the pics above of the drum and sunshell,
-Mike
The answers are out there you just got to look hard enough
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Re: BB 727 woes
[Re: Volare4life]
#1960685
12/01/15 02:21 AM
12/01/15 02:21 AM
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JohnRR
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its the same thickness, its like the washer had a smaller inner diameter and was forced down creating the lip/flange/shoulder what ever you want to call it, its right about the same thickness as the rest of the washer, I tried my best to get them to seat together and its the best i could come up with in the pics above of the drum and sunshell,
-Mike It doesn't look fully seated to me. the lugs should be closer to the bottom , try using a thin blade screw driver to line all the clutches up so you can slide it together in one straight shot , otherwise it takes a lot of turning and hoping it drops eventually. And that front washer should be at least .060 or more as John K said .
running up my post count some more .
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Re: BB 727 woes
[Re: Volare4life]
#1961139
12/01/15 06:52 PM
12/01/15 06:52 PM
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Volare4life
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John RR, what about the mid/thick washer, is it in the right place ? what should it have measured at ?
-Mike
The answers are out there you just got to look hard enough
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Re: BB 727 woes
[Re: Volare4life]
#1961204
12/01/15 08:26 PM
12/01/15 08:26 PM
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JohnRR
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John RR, what about the mid/thick washer, is it in the right place ? what should it have measured at ?
-Mike I am not sure , but it might be the .060? I'd have to go thru notes on transmissions I have built to see which one I used where ... it's been a while since I did one. But I will say this , there is no .015 plastic washer that goes in those areas.
running up my post count some more .
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Re: BB 727 woes
[Re: Volare4life]
#1961966
12/02/15 08:03 PM
12/02/15 08:03 PM
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JohnRR
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it's not plastic from what I can tell but super thin metal As was stated above me that washer should not be a thin metal washer.
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Re: BB 727 woes
[Re: Volare4life]
#1962114
12/02/15 11:41 PM
12/02/15 11:41 PM
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Take a feeler gauge and check side clearance between the two reaction shaft seal rings and their grooves. 2nd picture in the series - unless it is an optical illusion the bottom ring looks like it has a lot more clearance in it's groove than the top ring. The L/R drum is wounded because your front clutch is leaking.
Last edited by Transman; 12/02/15 11:45 PM.
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Re: BB 727 woes
[Re: Volare4life]
#1963067
12/04/15 01:26 PM
12/04/15 01:26 PM
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Volare4life
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Your right about the gap Transman, top gap measured a solid .005" at 4 different spots, bottom ring gap measured in at .012" at 4 different spots, I have checked both my trans star and carl monroe books, and I couldn't find a gap limit on the rings, -Mike
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Re: BB 727 woes
[Re: Volare4life]
#1974898
12/23/15 12:53 AM
12/23/15 12:53 AM
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Volare4life
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ok bringing this back, finished the rebuild, 1st and second are there, but when it shifts to 3rd it acts like its in neutral, and slips with almost no engagement, and rather then smoke check the trans or my feet, i just shift it back to second and drive back to the house ( i am only driving down the service road near the house, no open street yets). Now i have double checked the fluid, its to the top of the fill line in neutral and warm, so were good there, I actually thought about adding an additional quart just to see the what if, but i don't know this crap is frustrating as hell. I am wondering should there be some freedom of movement of the bands both front and rear, ie not touching the drum all the way around ? i am getting ready to drop the pan and swap a known good valve body from my 904 that was behind my boosted slant with a TF-2 kit, now the reason i ask the question is when i pulled the valve body off, i noticed the bands were kinda loose, but that car never missed a shift, and held like a champ behind 22lbs of boosted slanted goodness. so should there be a bit of free play ?
Also its weird some times when i put it in reverse, the best way i can describe it is rubbing your fingers on a ballon, you know that weird squeaaak sound it makes ? yea kinda sounds like that, but its only for an instant once its put in reverse, so another reason i think it might be something with the bands
I really hope its just a valve body issue, if its internal and i got to pull it again and it requires more $$$$ to fix, then i will drive it with 2 gears till tax return and swap it to a 6-spd T-56 and be done with it,
-Mike
The answers are out there you just got to look hard enough
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Re: BB 727 woes
[Re: Volare4life]
#1975015
12/23/15 05:12 AM
12/23/15 05:12 AM
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Volare4life
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Mother truckin valve body swapped it from the 904, and I have all the gears, no slipping noticed, $hit I think I fixed it woooo hoooo
The answers are out there you just got to look hard enough
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Re: BB 727 woes
[Re: Volare4life]
#1975195
12/23/15 04:10 PM
12/23/15 04:10 PM
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John_Kunkel
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No 3rd gear and a balky Reverse points to a fault in the front clutch. Did you air check it before installing the VB?
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Re: BB 727 woes
[Re: Volare4life]
#1975367
12/23/15 08:45 PM
12/23/15 08:45 PM
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I air checked the clutch pack set up before I installed it in the case and I also checked it once the transmission was put back together minus the valve body and I heard an audible thunk both times with very very minimal air escaping and I was that 35 psi. I'll tear down the valve body in a bit, and see if I can find the culprit. I don't know if it's of any relevance but the 904 valve body did not have part throttle kickdown like the other 727 valve body
The answers are out there you just got to look hard enough
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Re: BB 727 woes
[Re: Volare4life]
#1975374
12/23/15 09:08 PM
12/23/15 09:08 PM
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cudaman1969
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Had same problem in my buddy's trans. Took trans apart and could see nothing wrong, all new stuff. Then took apart vb and found rust and old black fluid and grit. The man who rebuilt it never cleaned the vb, just stuck it in. I did put anouther vb in and same thing again, was going to pull trans apart again but I'll check the vb first. Thanks for the help, by the way, the part throttle kick down had the rust in it, locked up, reason for the other vb.
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