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BB 727 woes #1953791
11/18/15 05:45 PM
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Volare4life Offline OP
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So I finally got the 400BB in the volare running like a beast, but now I am having issues with the trans, reverse is really sluggish to the point of high rpms to move, and 3rd gear sounds like its free revving. I modified the valve body per the transgo TF-2 instructions for the street strip with shift command, I know that the valve body is good to go, since its the same one i had in my boosted slant and that thing was a beast, and shifted gears just fine, I am thinking that maybe the front band might need tightening up, since the transgo instructions say tighten till snug then back off 2 turns.....whats snug ? lol any advice or help is greatly appreciated, first and second shift no issues in auto and manual mode ( courtesy of my hurst V-matic 2) but no thrid just a high whine and like i already said reverse works but high rpms to make her move. also installed my own cable kickdown, used the buchillon for inspiration, and adjusted per there instructions,

Thanks,
-Mike


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Re: BB 727 woes [Re: Volare4life] #1953820
11/18/15 06:49 PM
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In my world "snug" is more than "Finger tight" and less than "Tight".
Now I don't mean to be a smart ass, it is just a matter of feel.

If you had the trans out of the car you probably would roll over the front drum and tighten the band until it dragged or even would not roll anymore, then back off the 2 or 3 turns on the adjusting screw and tighten the locknut. And do the same on the rear band. Make sure the filter screen is clean and that the fluid is up to proper level cause you may just be lacking fluid.


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Re: BB 727 woes [Re: Polarapete] #1953822
11/18/15 06:51 PM
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Front clutch issue. If the valve body was fine in another transmission, then it is likely the front clutch rubber seals.

Re: BB 727 woes [Re: Volare4life] #1953906
11/18/15 08:39 PM
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High/reverse clutch or clutch apply circuit is the issue. It's the only component applied in both 3rd and reverse. Did you install the cupped orifice plug in the high clutch apply passage in the case? Did the trans function before the valve body mods? Was it rebuilt? If so did you air check the clutch? The bad news unless its a valve body malfunction the trans has to come out. The good news is the high clutch is cheap and easy to repair once the trans is out. Let us know.
Doug

Re: BB 727 woes [Re: Volare4life] #1953956
11/18/15 10:20 PM
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dvw- Yes i did install the cupped orifice plug in the trans, I was told the trans functioned right up to being pulled and stored, I never ran it with the stock valve body, just my modified one. Not rebuilt to my knowledge

Polarapete- that's exactly how I did it with the trans out and doing the transgo mods, also had my handy "torqueflite A-727" by Carl H. Munroe at my side since he does the exact mods in the transgo kit in the book, I triple checked the fluid and the levels looked good, maybe a bit above the dipstick full reading, I don't think a bit over the line could cause these issues, and from what ya'll have said and a bit more research its really looking like front clutch issues, gonna readjust the front band and see if it helps at all, I am hoping i might have been on the loose side of snug,

-Mike


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Re: BB 727 woes [Re: Volare4life] #1954030
11/19/15 12:12 AM
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The K/D band is applied in 2nd gear only, has nothing to do with 3rd or reverse. If the clutch was weak to start with the cupped orifice plug restricts the volume of fluid being sent to it. Step 1 Drop the pan and valve body. Material in the pan? If yes, pull the trans. If pan is clean. Step 2: Get a rubber tipped blow gun and feed the passage with the cupped plug with air. Clutch should thump with slight or no air hissing. Loud air hissing? Clutch piston seals or reaction shaft rings are leaking, pull trans. No material and no hiss my bet is a valvebody issue.
Doug

Re: BB 727 woes [Re: Volare4life] #1954058
11/19/15 12:39 AM
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Should I remove that orifice plug when i drop the valve body ? I am pretty sure I didn't have it in my 904/ turbo 225 setup, yea just read in the instructions, ONLY for 727's, so is it really a necessary item to install ? book says only about 25-30 psi, will that be enough psi to test ?

-Mike


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Re: BB 727 woes [Re: Volare4life] #1954067
11/19/15 01:06 AM
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Leave the plug in. It reduces flow but a healthy clutch will live fine. The TF2 kit uses it to delay the high gear clutch so it doesn't come on with the K/D band (overlap, 2 gears at once). I use regular shop air 100psi. but I'm sure 30 will work as well.
Doug

Re: BB 727 woes [Re: Volare4life] #1954363
11/19/15 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted By Volare4life
I was told the trans functioned right up to being pulled and stored, I never ran it with the stock valve body, just my modified one. Not rebuilt to my knowledge
-Mike


So you know basically NOTHING about this trans .

The symptoms point to a problem with the front clutch pack, taking the plug out is not going to fix it.

I see a crash course in rebuilding a 727 in your future.


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Re: BB 727 woes [Re: Volare4life] #1955447
11/21/15 05:46 PM
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well I adjusted the kickdown band took it out, had reverse, but no third at all, then once it got warm ( driving around the neighborhood) still no third and reverse started slipped and shuddering, so it looks like shes gonna be coming out.............not fun in a cramped Volare, torn down and rebuilt.... but first to test the front clutch pressure feed hole just to eliminate that, any recommendations for who to go through for parts to rebuild the trans ? I really wasn't looking to sink a ton into it, I have been planning to swap a T-56 in come tax return in January/February time frame, other wise its gonna be an automatic for a bit longer,

-Mike


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Re: BB 727 woes [Re: Volare4life] #1955465
11/21/15 06:37 PM
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You can repair the front clutch yourself for less than $50. Even w/o special tools. Not rocket science. Get the trans out and I'll walk you through it.
Doug

Re: BB 727 woes [Re: Volare4life] #1955477
11/21/15 07:01 PM
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Sounds great what parts will i need ?

-Mike


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Re: BB 727 woes [Re: Volare4life] #1955481
11/21/15 07:09 PM
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Metal seal ring kit, 4 clutch fibres, 4 steel plates, filter. The front band will be right there as well (2nd gear). If you chose and there are no leaks currently you can probably just get away with a pan gasket. Or go all out and buy a pump seal, babbit front pump bushing and paper and gasket kit. If you want a complete overhaul and go through the whole thing but that may be deeper than you want to go.
Doug

Re: BB 727 woes [Re: Volare4life] #1956285
11/23/15 02:33 AM
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any benefit if I go with 5 thin red vs 4 normal thickness clutches ?Ho w do you know if you have a high gear drum ? Also I am leaning more towards A&A for the parts, but also hear a lot of great things about CRT, but then again turbo action is local to me, anyone have experience with the turbo action tranz box rebuild kit ? Also the A&A kit is only $150 vs the TA tranz box at $314 (on jegs), judging by the description they include the same parts,

-Mike


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Re: BB 727 woes [Re: Volare4life] #1956347
11/23/15 09:26 AM
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All 727 have a high/reverse drum. They can be 3 plate or 4 plate. I always use the 4 plate. You don't know what you have until it's disassembled. Rick at A&A is great to work with. Clutch capacity needs are based on power. I've run standard 4 plate Rabestoes in low 10 second cars for over 700 passes and still looked good at teardown. My current 9.0 car run 5 thin red plates. Rebuild parts are pretty generic. If you're going to replace the K/D band I'd suggest red material as well, not Kevlar. Other than theK/D and high drum we run all the stock stuff.
Doug

Re: BB 727 woes [Re: Volare4life] #1958917
11/27/15 08:01 PM
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well heres pics of the tear down so far.....how far down the rabbit hole we go from here....













Last edited by Volare4life; 11/27/15 08:03 PM.

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Re: BB 727 woes [Re: Volare4life] #1958921
11/27/15 08:04 PM
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Re: BB 727 woes [Re: Volare4life] #1958987
11/27/15 10:32 PM
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this might not even apply to the prob at hand but a FYI I could not get my bands to torque to 72 INCH lbs (then back off several turns of course). I kept going tighter and tighter to where I knew I had to stop & regroup before I broke something. Kunkel had me set the gap(s) to 1/4 and 5/16 (I forget which was the front and rear) as that is the bottom line just like valve lash. (904) Holler how things turn out.


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Re: BB 727 woes [Re: Volare4life] #1959030
11/27/15 11:52 PM
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I'll post a pic of the band, but there is no deformation or cracks, the band material still looks good, slight discoloration on the steel band itself, but i think that is from sitting the "god knows how long it had been, owner swapped it for an 833 xx years ago....

Last edited by Volare4life; 11/27/15 11:53 PM.

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Re: BB 727 woes [Re: Volare4life] #1959112
11/28/15 03:32 AM
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Re: BB 727 woes [Re: Volare4life] #1959365
11/28/15 07:01 PM
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How thick is that washer on the front pump ?

Those waffle clutches are trashed ...

Is it just me or does the front drum not look fully seated in the sun shell , what was your end play ?


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Re: BB 727 woes [Re: Volare4life] #1959686
11/29/15 01:57 PM
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I see we found the high clutch damage. Look where the reaction shaft support rings ride in the drum. Is it worn? If so it needs a replacement drum. You can air check the piston by sliding the drum on to the pump (reload it with clutches and steels first) It should thud without much hiss. Truly the most difficult part of the entire build is reinstalling the high clutch piston. The rest is cake.
Doug

Re: BB 727 woes [Re: Volare4life] #1959698
11/29/15 02:18 PM
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Delamination=water/antifreeze contamination. The fluid looks milky in the pan shot. Make sure the trans cooler isn't leaky or just replace it. If the trans sat in storage it may have gotten moisture in it, but given all the issues you have had a new radiator is cheap insurance. You could just use an external cooler. twocents

Re: BB 727 woes [Re: Volare4life] #1959854
11/29/15 07:26 PM
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Pan shot was with brake cleaner sprayed into it when I cleaned te valve body, fluid that came out was red and didn't smell burnt.I will get measurements and air check the piston and repot back


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Re: BB 727 woes [Re: Volare4life] #1959918
11/29/15 09:37 PM
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Discoloration on the front band is the anti-rust dip.

The fiber thrust washer on the front pump should be thicker, normally the thickest selective thrust washer goes on the pump.

Remove the sealing rings from the pump, hook them and insert into the front drum to check their fit. If they're loose in their bore, leakage might explain the toasted front clutches. Also, check the bore of the drum for deep wear where the rings ride.


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Re: BB 727 woes [Re: Volare4life] #1959999
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in no particular order












Last edited by Volare4life; 11/29/15 11:54 PM.

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Re: BB 727 woes [Re: Volare4life] #1960002
11/29/15 11:55 PM
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Re: BB 727 woes [Re: Volare4life] #1960003
11/29/15 11:56 PM
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Re: BB 727 woes [Re: Volare4life] #1960019
11/30/15 12:19 AM
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the front thin washer that looks like it has a shoulder ( is it supposed to ?) measured .0155" thick, between the front and rear clutch packs that thick chunker measured .0825" thick, the rear clutch pack air checked good, front..... I could hear air hissing, not loud at only 30 psi, but its definitely was leaking out the hole in the front drum that the input shaft goes through had two blackish wear marks from the rings, couldn't feel any grooving, maybe new rings will seal better ? worst case new reaction shaft ? bushable ? I haven't broken the front clutch down completely to check the seal, but I did count nine springs in the drum, all the bushings in the tail stock, front pump etc looked good except for all the copper/bronze floater bushings on the planetaries, most of the tabs are cracked, like the steel looks cracked, i will have to bust out the lighted magnifying glass tomorrow and see for sure.

Speaking of planetaries, are they supposed to look like the units pictured above ? I know they are cast aluminium, but the machining is crap from factory !!!! Input and output shafts looked real good though, no scoring or damage, and the ball bearing on the output shaft has no play, like newness smile Also when i pulled the front pump the gasket between the pump and the bell had shellac on it, the bolts had shellac on them, is that safe to use on the gasket in the trans ? I have used shellac before, and quite love it, just not a place I thought I would use it


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Re: BB 727 woes [Re: Volare4life] #1960289
11/30/15 04:25 PM
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I can't see the pictures here at work , but that front washer should not have a shoulder and if that measurement is right then you have a problem there , it's too thin. What is the thickness of the shouldered part?

I'm going to stick with my original assessment that the front input shaft and from drum assembly were not fully seated and the front drum wore away the front washer/spacer because it was forced against it.

No gasket sealer is needed on the front pump gasket or on the bolts ... the bolt holes are dry ... I have never had a leak with a plain paper gasket, the o ring around the pump and the correct pump bolt sealing washers.


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Re: BB 727 woes [Re: Volare4life] #1960619
12/01/15 01:02 AM
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its the same thickness, its like the washer had a smaller inner diameter and was forced down creating the lip/flange/shoulder what ever you want to call it, its right about the same thickness as the rest of the washer, I tried my best to get them to seat together and its the best i could come up with in the pics above of the drum and sunshell,

-Mike


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Re: BB 727 woes [Re: Volare4life] #1960685
12/01/15 02:21 AM
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Originally Posted By Volare4life
its the same thickness, its like the washer had a smaller inner diameter and was forced down creating the lip/flange/shoulder what ever you want to call it, its right about the same thickness as the rest of the washer, I tried my best to get them to seat together and its the best i could come up with in the pics above of the drum and sunshell,

-Mike


It doesn't look fully seated to me. the lugs should be closer to the bottom , try using a thin blade screw driver to line all the clutches up so you can slide it together in one straight shot , otherwise it takes a lot of turning and hoping it drops eventually.

And that front washer should be at least .060 or more as John K said .


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Re: BB 727 woes [Re: Volare4life] #1961025
12/01/15 04:05 PM
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Nice thread. Just leaving my crumbs here to find as I may be doing the same rebuild on my 150 mile trans.

Re: BB 727 woes [Re: Volare4life] #1961139
12/01/15 06:52 PM
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John RR, what about the mid/thick washer, is it in the right place ? what should it have measured at ?

-Mike


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Re: BB 727 woes [Re: Volare4life] #1961204
12/01/15 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted By Volare4life
John RR, what about the mid/thick washer, is it in the right place ? what should it have measured at ?

-Mike


I am not sure , but it might be the .060? I'd have to go thru notes on transmissions I have built to see which one I used where ... it's been a while since I did one.

But I will say this , there is no .015 plastic washer that goes in those areas.


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Re: BB 727 woes [Re: Volare4life] #1961280
12/01/15 10:07 PM
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it's not plastic from what I can tell but super thin metal


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Re: BB 727 woes [Re: Volare4life] #1961604
12/02/15 11:36 AM
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The fiber thrust washer between the front pump and direct drum is selective thickness and could be 0.070" - 0.100" thick. These may be still available thru MOPAR dealer or you can get them from John Cope (CRT trans) or A&A. The fiber thrust washer between the direct drum and the forward drum (drum with input shaft) is a set thickness of 0.061". Since you mentioned during the air test of the direct drum you heard leakage, the piston needs to be removed and lip seals inspected/replaced. Need a spring compressor or carefully use a couple of C-clamps. They could have been cut during the last rebuild. The sealing rings on the back of the pump (Stator support) should be replaced. Check the fit in the direct drum as John Kunkel suggested. I always replace the bushing in the direct drum or at least inspect it because it maintains alignment of the direct drum on the stator support. If the bushing is worn out, the sealing rings will wear quickly. The fitment of the engagement lugs of the direct drum into the sun shell is critical to ensure all the clutch discs are engaged on the front planetary annulus gear splines. Should be below the edge of the square notches. The direct drum should be installed onto the forward drum (outside the trans) until it drops down to contact the fiber thrust washer. Keep rocking and turning until it drops. Replace the small fiber washer on the tip of the output shaft with a bronze washer. The fiber washers take a pounding. Several sources carry them. Then take the assembled direct drum and forward drum and install into the trans again spinning and rocking until the engagement lugs are below the front surface. Typically an 1/8" below maybe a little more. Again it should feel solid when bottomed out. Coat the stator support sealing rings with assembly grease. Be careful when installing the pump as you could damage the sealing rings. Once the pump is reinstalled, I would air check the drums and servos. . Also check input shaft end play. Should be .030 - 0.080"ish. The lower end of the spec is best. Let us know how it goes.

Re: BB 727 woes [Re: Volare4life] #1961966
12/02/15 08:03 PM
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Originally Posted By Volare4life
it's not plastic from what I can tell but super thin metal


As was stated above me that washer should not be a thin metal washer.


running up my post count some more .
Re: BB 727 woes [Re: Volare4life] #1962114
12/02/15 11:41 PM
12/02/15 11:41 PM
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Michigan
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Take a feeler gauge and check side clearance between the two reaction shaft seal rings and their grooves. 2nd picture in the series - unless it is an optical illusion the bottom ring looks like it has a lot more clearance in it's groove than the top ring. The L/R drum is wounded because your front clutch is leaking.

Last edited by Transman; 12/02/15 11:45 PM.
Re: BB 727 woes [Re: Volare4life] #1963067
12/04/15 01:26 PM
12/04/15 01:26 PM
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Jacksonville , Fl
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Your right about the gap Transman, top gap measured a solid .005" at 4 different spots, bottom ring gap measured in at .012" at 4 different spots, I have checked both my trans star and carl monroe books, and I couldn't find a gap limit on the rings,
-Mike


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Re: BB 727 woes [Re: Volare4life] #1963404
12/04/15 10:34 PM
12/04/15 10:34 PM
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I would get a fresh reaction shaft support, new seal and gasket set, clutch kit, completely take the unit down and wash and further inspect each and every parts. Most of what i can see is good - ignore the planetary finishes you mention - the geartrain rotating parts are separated by thrust washers - as long as the seat for each thrust washer is nice and flat you are good to go. Those reaction shaft support to front clutch drum seal rings rotate in the support and stay pretty much in place in the front drum. The top ring in your picture should have wear on the top of the seal (as pictured) and the bottom ring should have its wear on the bottom of the seal ring as pictured. Fluid pressure is coming in the support through the hole between the two seal rings trying to separate the seals on its way to the front clutch drum. My guess is if you measure those two seal rings for wear the bottom one is much narrower. By the looks of that front thrust washer worn thin and with a step someone forgot to check input shaft end play on the last rebuild. If the clutch disc fell out of location in either the front or rear clutch you would find a clutch disc with bent teeth. Whatever cooler you are using - get it professionally flushed or replace it, or install an inline cooler filter for a while to get the cooler clean. The stuff in the system will pass through the sump filter and screw things up again. You can't get things too clean.

Re: BB 727 woes [Re: Volare4life] #1974898
12/23/15 12:53 AM
12/23/15 12:53 AM
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Jacksonville , Fl
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ok bringing this back, finished the rebuild, 1st and second are there, but when it shifts to 3rd it acts like its in neutral, and slips with almost no engagement, and rather then smoke check the trans or my feet, i just shift it back to second and drive back to the house ( i am only driving down the service road near the house, no open street yets). Now i have double checked the fluid, its to the top of the fill line in neutral and warm, so were good there, I actually thought about adding an additional quart just to see the what if, but i don't know this crap is frustrating as hell. I am wondering should there be some freedom of movement of the bands both front and rear, ie not touching the drum all the way around ? i am getting ready to drop the pan and swap a known good valve body from my 904 that was behind my boosted slant with a TF-2 kit, now the reason i ask the question is when i pulled the valve body off, i noticed the bands were kinda loose, but that car never missed a shift, and held like a champ behind 22lbs of boosted slanted goodness. so should there be a bit of free play ?

Also its weird some times when i put it in reverse, the best way i can describe it is rubbing your fingers on a ballon, you know that weird squeaaak sound it makes ? yea kinda sounds like that, but its only for an instant once its put in reverse, so another reason i think it might be something with the bands

I really hope its just a valve body issue, if its internal and i got to pull it again and it requires more $$$$ to fix, then i will drive it with 2 gears till tax return and swap it to a 6-spd T-56 and be done with it,


-Mike


The answers are out there you just got to look hard enough
Re: BB 727 woes [Re: Volare4life] #1975015
12/23/15 05:12 AM
12/23/15 05:12 AM
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Posts: 119
Jacksonville , Fl
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Mother truckin valve body swapped it from the 904, and I have all the gears, no slipping noticed, $hit I think I fixed it woooo hoooo


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Re: BB 727 woes [Re: Volare4life] #1975071
12/23/15 12:06 PM
12/23/15 12:06 PM
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Sounds like you may have done something incorrectly when the valve body was modified with the TF2 kit. I would suggest disassembling it carefully and go over the TF2 instructions very closely again. The TF2 instructions are a bit cryptic and hard to follow but the diagrams are pretty good. Otherwise a good shop manual would show the valve orientations. Pay particular attention to the 11/32" and 3/8" check balls as show in the attached diagram. If you get them mixed up, the symptom is no third gear.

tf.jpg
Re: BB 727 woes [Re: Volare4life] #1975195
12/23/15 04:10 PM
12/23/15 04:10 PM
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Rio Linda, CA
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No 3rd gear and a balky Reverse points to a fault in the front clutch. Did you air check it before installing the VB?


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Re: BB 727 woes [Re: Volare4life] #1975367
12/23/15 08:45 PM
12/23/15 08:45 PM
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Posts: 119
Jacksonville , Fl
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I air checked the clutch pack set up before I installed it in the case and I also checked it once the transmission was put back together minus the valve body and I heard an audible thunk both times with very very minimal air escaping and I was that 35 psi. I'll tear down the valve body in a bit, and see if I can find the culprit. I don't know if it's of any relevance but the 904 valve body did not have part throttle kickdown like the other 727 valve body


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Re: BB 727 woes [Re: Volare4life] #1975374
12/23/15 09:08 PM
12/23/15 09:08 PM
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fredericksburg,va
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Had same problem in my buddy's trans. Took trans apart and could see nothing wrong, all new stuff. Then took apart vb and found rust and old black fluid and grit. The man who rebuilt it never cleaned the vb, just stuck it in. I did put anouther vb in and same thing again, was going to pull trans apart again but I'll check the vb first. Thanks for the help, by the way, the part throttle kick down had the rust in it, locked up, reason for the other vb.

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