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another oil mod ? with sb #1926299
10/05/15 03:33 PM
10/05/15 03:33 PM
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Mt Morris Michigan
mopar dave Offline OP
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finally got my 360 engine block from the machine shop. now, i have performed most of the oil mods (drilled oil feeds from right oil galley to mains to 9/32 and large feeds to 1/2 from sump to right galley). did not do the crossover tube in the valley. planned on plugging the left galley at #1 main per mod directions. my machinest says not to plug off, but drill a .090 hole in the plug to oil lifters. i do want enough oil on the lifter roller bearings, but now i'm unsure what to do. plug it or put a hole in plug?

Re: another oil mod ? with sb [Re: mopar dave] #1926320
10/05/15 04:00 PM
10/05/15 04:00 PM
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Maryland
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Sounds like a good idea to me. Instead of cutting oil off entirely to driver side oil galley, you are now restricting how fast it can flow to the driver side, and in effect you are now keeping more oil pressure on the #1 main.

Re: another oil mod ? with sb [Re: mopar dave] #1926365
10/05/15 05:01 PM
10/05/15 05:01 PM
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Fulton County, PA
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How high do you expect to rev it? That's the $64,000 question.


If the results don't match the theory, change the theory.
Re: another oil mod ? with sb [Re: mopar dave] #1926396
10/05/15 05:50 PM
10/05/15 05:50 PM
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madscientist Offline
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The valley croosover tube is a waste of time. Don't bother.

If you are running mechanical lifters you should be blocking off all the oil to the drivers side just like you are talking about.

The passenger side SHOULD be bushed, or better said tubed, unless you want to bush the lifter bores. You can buy the stuff to tube the block from any tool seller and have no oil to the lifters.


Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
Re: another oil mod ? with sb [Re: madscientist] #1926422
10/05/15 06:21 PM
10/05/15 06:21 PM
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Weddington, N.C.
Streetwize Offline
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I just wonder about how much of the 30-40 year old mods (when everyone ran really thick 40/50 wt "racing oil" like I did in the 70's and 80's) really apply when dealing with modern oils? I fully understand priority oiling to the mains but (for example) if you're running pressure fed solid lifters with axle oiling why wouldn't you want oil to both sides of the galley? The #1 main (and Driver's side of the motor) only gets full time oiling if you use a fully grooved main bearing, most of us run 1/2 to 3/4's.

I've become a fan over the years of thinner oil, tighter clearances (on a well machined crank of course) and a cooler to try to maintain moderate oil temperatures. I concentrate mainly on the supply side, big pump large capacity, ported and polished #5 cap and pump, etc. Of course I'm not turning >8500 RPM, more like 7200 max. Additionally, Internal parts are much lighter and lower friction than they were when most of these "bibles" were written as well.

I'm not criticizing any "tried and True" methods mentioned here, I'm just asking the question as to whether the approach can be modified a bit for modern rotating parts and lighter rotating/reciprocating masses flowing in much thinner, yet far more stable and "slick" oils. The Nascar guys have proven that thin oils (delivered very strategically) at lower pressures and stable temperatures can save power and provide longevity in race conditions.

Last edited by Streetwize; 10/05/15 06:27 PM.

WIZE

World's Quickest Diahatsu Rocky (??) 414" Stroker Small block Mopar Powered. 10.84 @ 123...and gettin' quicker!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mWzLma3YGI

In Car:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjXcf95e6v0
Re: another oil mod ? with sb [Re: madscientist] #1926492
10/05/15 07:45 PM
10/05/15 07:45 PM
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Mt Morris Michigan
mopar dave Offline OP
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7500 max. I am using half groove main bearings and I did not tube right oil galley. Didn't know that was required with the other oil mods I did.

Re: another oil mod ? with sb [Re: mopar dave] #1926510
10/05/15 08:19 PM
10/05/15 08:19 PM
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off the grid
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I've always been told that after 7200, the plug and crossover is a good idea.


Yeah, it's got a smallblock.
Re: another oil mod ? with sb [Re: mopar dave] #1926538
10/05/15 09:07 PM
10/05/15 09:07 PM
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Crizila Offline
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Here is a video of a mid 10 run with an "essentially" unmodified oiling system in my 408 solid lifter motor. Hi volume pump, 1/2" pickup running full synthetic 10-40 Royal purple. Oil press. gauge is just to the right of the steering wheel. 200 degree oil @ idle is around 30 psi on the gauge, so the engine had to be a little on the cool side on this run as oil press. @ launch was around 40 psi. End of run was about 7K and oil press. around 90psi.
http://C:\Users\johnc_000\dropbox\file0014.MOV

Last edited by Crizila; 10/05/15 09:17 PM.

Fastest 300
Re: another oil mod ? with sb [Re: mopar dave] #1926581
10/05/15 10:12 PM
10/05/15 10:12 PM
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Fulton County, PA
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CMcAllister Offline
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I've had 2 engines with OE 360 iron cranks. 73-7500 RPM. One was tubed, the second was bushed. The first spun a bearing and broke the rod with a low run count when I didn't pay close enough attention to it. The second one was constantly trying to do the same thing. It would hurt one bearing in 7 or 8 runs, same one everytime. If it was bad we would check a second rod, again same one everytime and usually replace it. Tried a lot of things before we got it reasonably under control and was able to go a season (120-130 runs) without fixing the bottom end. Above about 6800-7000 is when it gets to be a problem and oil system mods are needed, in my experience. Maybe others have had different luck with them.


If the results don't match the theory, change the theory.
Re: another oil mod ? with sb [Re: mopar dave] #1926607
10/05/15 10:40 PM
10/05/15 10:40 PM
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jacksonville,FLORIDA
slammedR/T Offline
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been running stock magnum block with my 408 stroker turning 8K rpm and only oil mod I have done is a melling HV oil pump and canton bottom feed pick up tube. Bearings looked perfect on every freshen up until I had a bad rod that was missed by local shop spin a bearing at idle in my driveway. Also running MRL performance solid roller lifters.

Last edited by slammedR/T; 10/05/15 10:40 PM.

2000 Dakota R/T, 408 magnum, 727, Indy heads
1000cfm 4150 carb, 93 octane fuel.
motor; 10.258 @ 132.78
200 shot; 9.262 @ 144.69
racemagnum
Re: another oil mod ? with sb [Re: mopar dave] #1926615
10/05/15 10:46 PM
10/05/15 10:46 PM
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moper Offline
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The oil will only be sent to the rollers if the lifters are designed to do that. A "normal" solid roller does not have pressurized oil feed to the roller. If you have the std ones, the rollers are splash fed - from the crankcase primarilly. The bodies are oiled by drainback. There is no reason to get oil to them unless they are designed for it. Feed the bearings.


Well, art is art, isn't it? Still, on the other hand, water is water! And east is east and west is west and if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does. Now, uh... Now you tell me what you know.
Re: another oil mod ? with sb [Re: moper] #1926768
10/06/15 01:45 AM
10/06/15 01:45 AM
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Mt Morris Michigan
mopar dave Offline OP
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very good points. guess i'll just plug it up.

Re: another oil mod ? with sb [Re: Crizila] #1926770
10/06/15 01:47 AM
10/06/15 01:47 AM
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Mt Morris Michigan
mopar dave Offline OP
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not able to open your vid.

Re: another oil mod ? with sb [Re: Streetwize] #1926773
10/06/15 01:50 AM
10/06/15 01:50 AM
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Mt Morris Michigan
mopar dave Offline OP
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ran amsoil 15/50 in the past. would like to run a lighter oil in this combo.

Re: another oil mod ? with sb [Re: mopar dave] #1926784
10/06/15 01:59 AM
10/06/15 01:59 AM
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Lincoln Nebraska
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I would block the pass gallery being fed from the front & use the crossover. evidently they figured out that not feeding the pass gallery from the front would keep the psi/vol high enough cuz it dead ends down there as opposed to flowing on to the pass gallery as to not starve the front mains/rods from that reduction in volume. You might go to www.moparchat.com then scroll down to & click on "circle track chat" then peruse Sanborns' oiling mods that are in a sticky at the top of the page (its a long read) if you ain't already then go to FABO & read Guitar Jones' oiling mods (alot overlaps)


live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
Re: another oil mod ? with sb [Re: moper] #1926912
10/06/15 11:14 AM
10/06/15 11:14 AM
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Mt Morris Michigan
mopar dave Offline OP
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i disagree with one thing moper, the lifter bodies are oiled by the main oil galley their setting in, thats why i'm afraid of shutting the oil off. dont want a stuck lifter. another thing i was thinking of is when people tube the right galley, they drill a small hole in the tube at each lifter for oil. if i plug the left galley i'm shutting off all the oil to that lifter bank.

Re: another oil mod ? with sb [Re: mopar dave] #1927016
10/06/15 01:29 PM
10/06/15 01:29 PM
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Streetwize Offline
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I just want to jot this down for the "folks playing along at home" that may have seen this topic 100 times but don't really have a basic understanding of the whats and whys.

The main reason for the tube in the pass galley (or alternatively bushing the individual lifter bores) is to guarantee priority oil from the pump discharge gets routed first all the mains...and at (more or less) equal pressure....Primarily in the event of a lifter leaving the bore due to valvetrain failiure. A "normally" functioning SBM oil system does the same thing under normal conditions but will deliver proportionally less oil volume due to the 8 parallel oil "leaks" occurring at each lifter bore.

The logic behind plugging the #1 Main lifter galley feed (regardless of whether you tube the pass galley) downstram of the main is to effectively cut in half the number of lifter bleeds ( from 16 lifters down to 8 volume drops) in the circuit that feeds the main bearings, again this ensures more "priority" oiling (volume and additional pressure) is available to the Main bearings. The bypass is exactly that, it bridges the gap between the left and right galleys once you plug the #1 main passage. If you do not plug or significantly restrict the #1 it doesn't really do much under normal running conditions. Plugging #1 also ensures all the oil to the #1 bearing has to leak through the bearing itself, not run to the path of least resistance (up the galley) at higher RPMs.

Enlarging the main passages from the galley increases the supply 'charge' of oil to the mains but does not necessarily increase the flow due mainly to the limits of the bearing orifice itself and at least partially design of the bearing shells (groove width, depth and surface area).

All are inter-related and a decent understanding of series and parallel circuit flow is really essential for understanding the cause and effect.

How much is adequate, how much is too much and how much is "overkill" I suppose what's being debated.

I wrote this quick so don't score me too harshly, lol


WIZE

World's Quickest Diahatsu Rocky (??) 414" Stroker Small block Mopar Powered. 10.84 @ 123...and gettin' quicker!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mWzLma3YGI

In Car:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjXcf95e6v0
Re: another oil mod ? with sb [Re: mopar dave] #1927041
10/06/15 02:21 PM
10/06/15 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted By mopar dave
i disagree with one thing moper, the lifter bodies are oiled by the main oil galley their setting in, thats why i'm afraid of shutting the oil off. dont want a stuck lifter. another thing i was thinking of is when people tube the right galley, they drill a small hole in the tube at each lifter for oil. if i plug the left galley i'm shutting off all the oil to that lifter bank.


No problem. You're the builder so d what you feel is appropriate. When I run a solid roller I always bush the bores. When I bush a lifter bore on a street rather than race engine I add a small hole in the bushing to make sure the body gets oil during idle times when there's not a lot of drainback or splash. Many other builders don't. IMO on a racing engine this is not necesary. That's because there is very little need for oil on the lifter body beyond what's running past and being flung around. So yes - the bodies are oiled by the galleys. But no - it's not necessary and in terms of oil control and keeping it where it's really needed (bearings) that type of oiling is a liability.
There are many ways to skin the same cat here, and some that wouldn't worry about it anyway.


Well, art is art, isn't it? Still, on the other hand, water is water! And east is east and west is west and if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does. Now, uh... Now you tell me what you know.
Re: another oil mod ? with sb [Re: moper] #1927055
10/06/15 02:41 PM
10/06/15 02:41 PM
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Weddington, N.C.
Streetwize Offline
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just want to add that Sanborn's write-up on his circle track mods is one of the very best technical posts I've ever read.

Also I suppose adding the bypass without the #1 galley restriction would add some 'backpressure' or resistance to the oil exiting the #1 main so it might actually aid flow to that bearing. Had to think about that one a minute.


WIZE

World's Quickest Diahatsu Rocky (??) 414" Stroker Small block Mopar Powered. 10.84 @ 123...and gettin' quicker!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mWzLma3YGI

In Car:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjXcf95e6v0
Re: another oil mod ? with sb [Re: mopar dave] #1927124
10/06/15 04:07 PM
10/06/15 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted By mopar dave
i disagree with one thing moper, the lifter bodies are oiled by the main oil galley their setting in, thats why i'm afraid of shutting the oil off. dont want a stuck lifter. another thing i was thinking of is when people tube the right galley, they drill a small hole in the tube at each lifter for oil. if i plug the left galley i'm shutting off all the oil to that lifter bank.


The ONLY thing that oil does is feed the hydraulic part of the lifter. If you are using FT solid lifters or solid roller lifters they lube from splash.

Again, that crossover tube doesn't do anything.

The Chrysler oiling system was the same from 61-62 (somewhere around there I'd have to look it up for sure but the Poly's are virtually the same)onward and was the same until the las LA's were produced. The biggest sin is the oil timing to the crank is WRONG and it oils the lifters FIRST. The latter is relatively simple to fix, the former not nearly so much.

So 99% of what is done on the PRESSURE side of the pump is USELESS. Make your inlet as big as possible, Block ALL moil to the lifter bodies if you are NOT using hydraulic lifters and keep hot idle oil pressure at no less the 40 psi at idle. Always use full groove mains to keep oil going to the rods all the time.

If you want to discuss small block wet sump oiling is a 600 hp plus engine at 8000 rpm plus, well that a whole 'nuther cat, and very few dudes actually do it.

As for oil viscosity...way over blown. There is very little to be had for 99% of the guys who ain't running Comp or Pro Stock. The engine builder SHOULD set clearances accordingly. FWIW on a typical Chrylser small block I run .002 on the rods and .0022-.0024 on the mains. That's with a 30 or 40 grade oil. If you go to a lighter grade oil, then they get a bit tighter. If you think you want to zip it up past 7500 rpm, I add a couple of tenths to it but's that's about as loose as it gets.


Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
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