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Re: It's been 2 years since aftermarket Mopar blocks available [Re: Dragula] #1925351
10/04/15 01:32 AM
10/04/15 01:32 AM
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Monte_Smith Offline
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Originally Posted By Dragula
Originally Posted By Monte_Smith
Originally Posted By FastmOp
Someone needs to buy Keith Black, or Indy. It would be cheeper.
There is nothing wrong with INDY. They make a good block and they are not hard to get. Some people don't like Russ, rumors get started and the haters pile on. Likely 75% of the people who proclaim "INDY sucks" have probably never even dealt with them. They just read it on the internet so it MUST be true.

I personally have NEVER had a problem with INDY, their parts, nor Russ.......so whats that mean? Not a damn thing, about the same value as what all the haters say. Pretty simple, guys want an alum Mopar block, there is one you can get quick and another takes a year. Guys don't like either of those options, they can do without.


Then I HAVE to ask you, did you ever buy anything from Russ at Indy? Cause if you did, then you would know what everyone says is TRUE!

And I do use their products, usually good parts, but I will no longer buy direct.
I have done lots of business with INDY and WELL before I worked for Holley. My first dealings was sending in a set of iron heads to be ported by Lazzeri. This was back in the early 90s, maybe late 80s and they were nothing but nice. Bought my first set of 440-1s in probably the early 90s as well. Again, no problems. Matter of fact have NEVER had a problem with Russ or INDY. Bought heads, blocks, they have repaired stuff for me, both blocks and heads, with not a single bad experience. The only BAD thing I could say was they promised to make me a custom block for my TS heads that never got done, but he called and told me they just couldn't do it, like I wanted it, but again was very nice about it........So to all I read being TRUE, I have to say, not in MY experiences with them.

Russ has taken me to eat, been to his house, showed me all his cars, showed me the whole operation and has generally just always been nice to me and again, all before I worked with Holley. We get along fine and always have. He was always at the track when Duke was racing the Dart. Guess we just hit it off or something.

Now, you call him with an attitude, I guarantee you WILL get one back.

Re: It's been 2 years since aftermarket Mopar blocks available [Re: Monte_Smith] #1925373
10/04/15 02:05 AM
10/04/15 02:05 AM
Joined: Jan 2008
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Canada
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Originally Posted By Monte_Smith
Not sure why everyone keeps bring up the 481X deal. That is NOT a block that takes a Mopar head. It takes a 481X head, which is an Oldsmobile wedge head. Also the block is a 4.840 bore space and takes a Chevy crank. Basically a Chevy block, with skirted sides and provisions for a front drive dist. It LOOKS nothing like a Mopar block.

A TFX block is a HEMI block. A TFX or 481X block can be forged or billet


Why not bring it up? There are no current "Mopar" blocks to use and us Mopar guys get poo pooed pretty hard for being hung up on stock looking heads and purple cams. I brought up the 481X because it's a cool engine, and to me, I see a lot of Mopar in it and was just trying to expand the conversation. If someone made a "Mopar" head for it you might see some hardcore Mopar guys using it. Again I understand it's pretty much a purpose built engine that's a mash up of Chevy and Hemi BUT something like that might be enough to get the Mopar racers going, maybe not, was just a neat package that I've always been intrigued by.
BTW apparently they used to make a cast block, which I'm guessing had water jackets?

Re: It's been 2 years since aftermarket Mopar blocks available [Re: Monte_Smith] #1925378
10/04/15 02:18 AM
10/04/15 02:18 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
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Hot Rod Ridge
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Originally Posted By Monte_Smith
Originally Posted By Dragula
Originally Posted By Monte_Smith
Originally Posted By FastmOp
Someone needs to buy Keith Black, or Indy. It would be cheeper.
There is nothing wrong with INDY. They make a good block and they are not hard to get. Some people don't like Russ, rumors get started and the haters pile on. Likely 75% of the people who proclaim "INDY sucks" have probably never even dealt with them. They just read it on the internet so it MUST be true.

I personally have NEVER had a problem with INDY, their parts, nor Russ.......so whats that mean? Not a damn thing, about the same value as what all the haters say. Pretty simple, guys want an alum Mopar block, there is one you can get quick and another takes a year. Guys don't like either of those options, they can do without.


Then I HAVE to ask you, did you ever buy anything from Russ at Indy? Cause if you did, then you would know what everyone says is TRUE!

And I do use their products, usually good parts, but I will no longer buy direct.
I have done lots of business with INDY and WELL before I worked for Holley. My first dealings was sending in a set of iron heads to be ported by Lazzeri. This was back in the early 90s, maybe late 80s and they were nothing but nice. Bought my first set of 440-1s in probably the early 90s as well. Again, no problems. Matter of fact have NEVER had a problem with Russ or INDY. Bought heads, blocks, they have repaired stuff for me, both blocks and heads, with not a single bad experience. The only BAD thing I could say was they promised to make me a custom block for my TS heads that never got done, but he called and told me they just couldn't do it, like I wanted it, but again was very nice about it........So to all I read being TRUE, I have to say, not in MY experiences with them.

Russ has taken me to eat, been to his house, showed me all his cars, showed me the whole operation and has generally just always been nice to me and again, all before I worked with Holley. We get along fine and always have. He was always at the track when Duke was racing the Dart. Guess we just hit it off or something.

Now, you call him with an attitude, I guarantee you WILL get one back.




I built an Alum Indy motor this year. I went through a dealer and had no issues. I would have bought a KB but I don't like to wait. My next build will be a Hemi.

Re: It's been 2 years since aftermarket Mopar blocks available [Re: FastmOp] #1925412
10/04/15 06:10 AM
10/04/15 06:10 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,130
Melbourne , Australia
LA360 Offline
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I find it interesting reading these threads, I always find it quite amusing the arguements stating that if Mopar blocks were priced the same as chevy blocks they'd sell more.
A Dart BBC block sells for around $2387-$3483 depending on what options it has. A World block sells at around $2296-$3092

Of that retail price, how much do you think the manufacturer see? How much profit is made from each block?
From concept to your first finished block, if you haven't dropped at least $250K into your project, I'd be very surprised.
Then you've got to cough up and do your first run of castings (20-50) and machine these, package and distribute. If it's not done in house, these vendors are going to want to be paid. So you're out of pocket another $15-40K before you've even sold your first block. If you're cashed up like Ken Black, this isn't a real issue. If you've taken out a mortgage on your house to pay for this, you're paying interest.

How many BBC blocks would be sold per year?

When World was making the Mopar BB & Hemi Blocks, how many were sold per year?

Lets say 250 Mopar blocks are sold in a year, with a net profit of $500 per block. So $125K per year of return.
A BBC block sells around 12500 units per year, netting a return of $6250000 per year. Now as a business, which are you going to be making and selling?

Granted these figures are arbitrary, but I think it needed to be spelled out, because some people just don't get it.

For the record, I could design an engine block, with some assistance from the foundry design and produce the core boxes. Machine the castings, make the design adjustments etc. Borrow a bunch of money to pay for a run of castings, machine them, store them and attempt to distribute them. I'd be out of pocket for the cost of the castings, the tooling and consumables, fixture materials and probably thousands of hours of my own time.

But how many would I really sell? How many times would I hear "If they were $2K you'd sell a bunch of them" or "Why aren't they available with this?" and so on and so on. It really just wouldn't be worth the aggravation. I'd get more satisfaction doing one or two billet blocks and using them as coffee tables!

To those people who argue about why the Mopar blocks are more expensive? Mortgage your house and go and bank roll it yourself. You'll find out really quickly!

Rant Over! Haha


Alan Jones
Re: It's been 2 years since aftermarket Mopar blocks available [Re: camastomcat] #1925555
10/04/15 01:39 PM
10/04/15 01:39 PM
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North Alabama
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Monte_Smith Offline
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LOL........yep, always the same old argument. A BBM mopar block SHOULD cost the same as a BBC and if it did they would sell a boatload........uh huh. Guess that is why everyone who has ever made a cast iron BBM block has stopped. Because they sold a boatload and made all the money they needed........LOL!!!

Some don't seem to understand supply and demand. Chevy people out number Mopar guys, probably 1000-1. Aftermarket block sales would be even more lopsided than that. And since business is based on ROI numbers, you have to be delusional to think both products should cost the end user the same amount

Re: It's been 2 years since aftermarket Mopar blocks available [Re: Monte_Smith] #1925568
10/04/15 01:58 PM
10/04/15 01:58 PM
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Posts: 1,944
Apollo, PA.
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We better start buying from, rather than complaining about the people already making our stuff, Indy, kb, etc. Or we'll loose those options also. twocents I have no complaints about my Indy block...Got it from a local dealer and was no problem. up

Re: It's been 2 years since aftermarket Mopar blocks available [Re: hudsonhornet7x] #1925617
10/04/15 03:00 PM
10/04/15 03:00 PM
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Posts: 515
geezer acres rest home
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im going to go way out on a limb here and just say there is no reason in the world a decent hp block cannot be made and sold at a comparable price to the bowtie girls.no "conspiracys" no "haters",no line of crap deep enough to choke an nba player.at that level they would sell,period.its really comparable to the price guys spend on a decent set of heads with valvetrain.it all boils down to the fact that nobody is willing to try.if you look at the obsolete block replacements that are out there,donovan,pontiac,348 chevy, etc, and so on,it appears not to make any sense whatsoever to the average racer.people are clamoring for blocks,lots of people.maybe if we all give up and say the hell with it, somebody will then jump in and see no demand and build them.next week the new trick,siamese bore,double crossbolted,alloy stanley steamer block will be in full production and on the market for 1800 dollars delivered.....


SFI 25.5 depends,no leak,even at 213 mph....
Re: It's been 2 years since aftermarket Mopar blocks available [Re: Monte_Smith] #1925728
10/04/15 07:17 PM
10/04/15 07:17 PM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 12,379
Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
Dragula Offline
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Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
Originally Posted By Monte_Smith
Originally Posted By Dragula
Originally Posted By Monte_Smith
Originally Posted By FastmOp
Someone needs to buy Keith Black, or Indy. It would be cheeper.
There is nothing wrong with INDY. They make a good block and they are not hard to get. Some people don't like Russ, rumors get started and the haters pile on. Likely 75% of the people who proclaim "INDY sucks" have probably never even dealt with them. They just read it on the internet so it MUST be true.

I personally have NEVER had a problem with INDY, their parts, nor Russ.......so whats that mean? Not a damn thing, about the same value as what all the haters say. Pretty simple, guys want an alum Mopar block, there is one you can get quick and another takes a year. Guys don't like either of those options, they can do without.


Then I HAVE to ask you, did you ever buy anything from Russ at Indy? Cause if you did, then you would know what everyone says is TRUE!

And I do use their products, usually good parts, but I will no longer buy direct.
I have done lots of business with INDY and WELL before I worked for Holley. My first dealings was sending in a set of iron heads to be ported by Lazzeri. This was back in the early 90s, maybe late 80s and they were nothing but nice. Bought my first set of 440-1s in probably the early 90s as well. Again, no problems. Matter of fact have NEVER had a problem with Russ or INDY. Bought heads, blocks, they have repaired stuff for me, both blocks and heads, with not a single bad experience. The only BAD thing I could say was they promised to make me a custom block for my TS heads that never got done, but he called and told me they just couldn't do it, like I wanted it, but again was very nice about it........So to all I read being TRUE, I have to say, not in MY experiences with them.

Russ has taken me to eat, been to his house, showed me all his cars, showed me the whole operation and has generally just always been nice to me and again, all before I worked with Holley. We get along fine and always have. He was always at the track when Duke was racing the Dart. Guess we just hit it off or something.

Now, you call him with an attitude, I guarantee you WILL get one back.


Well, he usually hangs up on me before I get to ask him out to dinner, so you must rate pretty well.....And I have never given him attitude, its usually just stunned silence on my end of the phone followed by click.

And I did build an all alum Hemi this year with all their parts. But being hung up on when all you want are parts and not have them build the engine is pretty lame...


'70 Cuda,...605 EFI Hemi Street Car (6.20 best pass, 1.33 60ft)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYw6RA-k5Bk (6.25 at 108.75mph from inside car)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zQEb9uxFng (6.25 at 108mph from outside car)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCvfzsC4NgM (9.9)

'66 Barracuda AWB Stretched nose Blown 440 Car in build stage

'71 Duster Drag Car 400 Low Deck 512 best 6.002 at 115.44mph
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Znuo3jMUXTk
Re: It's been 2 years since aftermarket Mopar blocks available [Re: Dragula] #1925757
10/04/15 08:37 PM
10/04/15 08:37 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,116
PA.
pittsburghracer Offline
"Little"John
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PA.
Russ and I had pizza and a few beers last week. He even bought a round for the house. Whoops wrong Russ.


1970 Duster
Edelbrock headed 408
5.984@112.52
422 Indy headed small block
5.982@112.56 mph
9.42@138.27

Livin and lovin life one day at a time




Re: It's been 2 years since aftermarket Mopar blocks available [Re: pittsburghracer] #1925784
10/04/15 09:10 PM
10/04/15 09:10 PM
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Posts: 2,128
Salt Lake City
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camastomcat Offline OP
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I probably have over 50k invested in my Predator parts. Russ wasn't willing to even help with the type of head gaskets I needed and I asked an Indy dealer call his sorry a$$. So not sure why you rate the way you do Monte and I have no problem that you do. But don't get me started on what a stand up guy he is, he cost me thousands being a Richard on my Hemi predator deal. I don't trust him or his products at this point. I haven't bought as many parts as you have I'm sure, but everything I remember buying needed to be fixed after the sale, and they have never been any help. The dealers, that's another story. Too bad he has several of them mad too. If I thought they would stand behind their stuff, I would have already bought a block from them, but they have given me no reason to think so. And I have no problem with someone making a buck even if it costs a bit more, but it needs to be worth it.

Re: It's been 2 years since aftermarket Mopar blocks available [Re: pittsburghracer] #1925786
10/04/15 09:12 PM
10/04/15 09:12 PM
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RSNOMO Offline
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Originally Posted By pittsburghracer
Russ and I had pizza and a few beers last week. He even bought a round for the house. Whoops wrong Russ.



LMAO...


Makes you wonder why one GM 'yay' is pertinent regarding countless Mopar 'nays'...

Re: It's been 2 years since aftermarket Mopar blocks available [Re: camastomcat] #1925841
10/04/15 10:42 PM
10/04/15 10:42 PM
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Posts: 1,229
In The Hills
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Originally Posted By camastomcat
I probably have over 50k invested in my Predator parts. Russ wasn't willing to even help with the type of head gaskets I needed and I asked an Indy dealer call his sorry a$$. So not sure why you rate the way you do Monte and I have no problem that you do. But don't get me started on what a stand up guy he is, he cost me thousands being a Richard on my Hemi predator deal. I don't trust him or his products at this point. I haven't bought as many parts as you have I'm sure, but everything I remember buying needed to be fixed after the sale, and they have never been any help. The dealers, that's another story. Too bad he has several of them mad too. If I thought they would stand behind their stuff, I would have already bought a block from them, but they have given me no reason to think so. And I have no problem with someone making a buck even if it costs a bit more, but it needs to be worth it.


Sounds like the same seemingly annoyed and arrogant chap i dealt with when i bought a complete set of T&D rockers for the 440-1's at the Indy trade show. He acted as though he didn't want to be bothered by some simpleton who spent a measly $1100. Didn't even say thanks.
Next time i need any Indy related stuff i'll order online from a dealer and gladly pay the shipping and any taxes that may apply. That may never happen...i'm considering going to B-1's

Re: It's been 2 years since aftermarket Mopar blocks available [Re: dakotawilly] #1925999
10/05/15 02:14 AM
10/05/15 02:14 AM
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North Alabama
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Monte_Smith Offline
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Originally Posted By dakotawilly
im going to go way out on a limb here and just say there is no reason in the world a decent hp block cannot be made and sold at a comparable price to the bowtie girls.no "conspiracys" no "haters",no line of crap deep enough to choke an nba player.at that level they would sell,period.its really comparable to the price guys spend on a decent set of heads with valvetrain.it all boils down to the fact that nobody is willing to try.if you look at the obsolete block replacements that are out there,donovan,pontiac,348 chevy, etc, and so on,it appears not to make any sense whatsoever to the average racer.people are clamoring for blocks,lots of people.maybe if we all give up and say the hell with it, somebody will then jump in and see no demand and build them.next week the new trick,siamese bore,double crossbolted,alloy stanley steamer block will be in full production and on the market for 1800 dollars delivered.....
Low volume blocks cost more and that's just the way it is and always will be. Dart Big M, iron BBC blocks cost $2200......The All Pontiac iron block is a $1000 more than the Dart.......why would you think that is?

Re: It's been 2 years since aftermarket Mopar blocks available [Re: camastomcat] #1926012
10/05/15 02:44 AM
10/05/15 02:44 AM
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Someplace you aren't
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Sounds like Russ developed an attitude after a certain level of success was attained. That shouldn't surprise anybody in the least. He wouldnt be alone at all in that regard.

Also sounds like if you were an acquaintance before then, he still treats you the same. That part is a little surprising in itself so there must be something decent about him.


I want my fair share
Re: It's been 2 years since aftermarket Mopar blocks available [Re: camastomcat] #1926026
10/05/15 03:58 AM
10/05/15 03:58 AM
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Canada
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Guys expecting $2200 blocks is not realistic, not from a company wanting (needing) to make money. A $1000 ish premium is realistic. A $2200 block from a Mopar philanthropist (me if I won a massive lottery) is realistic but not probable

Re: It's been 2 years since aftermarket Mopar blocks available [Re: camastomcat] #1926065
10/05/15 09:27 AM
10/05/15 09:27 AM
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Huntsville, AL
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Huntsville, AL
One of the biggest PR problems Indy has was Josh King, who I hear is gone now. The guy would charge you for work they were supposed to do and the parts would show up without the work being done. No doubt he had to keep his boss happy, and screw the customer. I haven't had any dealings with the since and really couldn't give two Fs about them,

Re: It's been 2 years since aftermarket Mopar blocks available [Re: B1MAXX] #1926989
10/06/15 12:45 PM
10/06/15 12:45 PM
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Marion, South Carolina [><]
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Originally Posted By B1MAXX
We better start buying from, rather than complaining about the people already making our stuff, Indy, kb, etc. Or we'll loose those options also. twocents I have no complaints about my Indy block...Got it from a local dealer and was no problem. up

iagree iagree iagree Don't like Indy? There are plenty of dealers/vendors here on this board who can get you Indy stuff and be great to deal with.

I have a KB block and love it. VERY nice piece and was worth the money and the wait if you ask me. The wait sucks, but it is what it is. At least you get a real nice block out of it. twocents


CHIP
'70 hemicuda, 575" Hemi, 727, Dana 60
'69 road runner, 440-6, 18 spline 4 speed, Dana 60
'71 Demon, 340, low gear 904, 8.75
'73 Chrysler New Yorker, 440, 727, 8.75
'90 Chevy 454SS Silverado, 476" BBC, TH400, 14 bolt
'06 GMC 2500HD LBZ Duramax
Re: It's been 2 years since aftermarket Mopar blocks available [Re: an8sec70cuda] #1926996
10/06/15 12:59 PM
10/06/15 12:59 PM
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Posts: 20,116
PA.
pittsburghracer Offline
"Little"John
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PA.
I look at it this way. If I wanted a Keith Black engine for next year my order would be in for one right now. You then will get a call from Ken or an employee to go over your build. At that time you send in a partial payment. While waiting you save up the rest of the money to pay it off. Come Spring you receive a FINISHED block and not one needing to go to a machine shop to have finished. Just my thoughts and it worked for me when I stepped up to the best big block Mopar engine block produced.


1970 Duster
Edelbrock headed 408
5.984@112.52
422 Indy headed small block
5.982@112.56 mph
9.42@138.27

Livin and lovin life one day at a time




Re: It's been 2 years since aftermarket Mopar blocks available [Re: pittsburghracer] #1953205
11/17/15 08:10 PM
11/17/15 08:10 PM
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 290
Cincinnati, Ohio
d7cook Offline
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Cincinnati, Ohio
Originally Posted By pittsburghracer
I look at it this way. If I wanted a Keith Black engine for next year my order would be in for one right now. You then will get a call from Ken or an employee to go over your build. At that time you send in a partial payment. While waiting you save up the rest of the money to pay it off. Come Spring you receive a FINISHED block and not one needing to go to a machine shop to have finished. Just my thoughts and it worked for me when I stepped up to the best big block Mopar engine block produced.


JUST an FYI, I ordered a hemi block on last november 10th. At this time KB still does not have my casting. I knew going it was going to be a wait and I'm so behind on everything else it's not a big deal for me to wait longer but if you're wanting to order one you better be planning on longer than the 12 months everyone talks about.

That being said I'm going to be forced to order an Indy block from someone in the next couple weeks. I've been starting and stopping on a stroker wedge and just don't have a lot of confidence in the block I'm using and I can't wait 14 months for that block.


1967 Coronet, 1989 Daytona tube chassis. Former cars, 66 Charger, 67 R/T, 69 Coronet, 67 Dart GT. -Banned for life from V8Buick.com-
Re: It's been 2 years since aftermarket Mopar blocks available [Re: d7cook] #1953214
11/17/15 08:29 PM
11/17/15 08:29 PM
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Posts: 20,116
PA.
pittsburghracer Offline
"Little"John
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PA.
All I can say is have you stayed in contact with Ken? I myself am a person that keeps in personal contact with someone I'm dealing with. Phone contact only or if possible face to face. I didn't pester the guy but he's a very reachable guy to talk to


1970 Duster
Edelbrock headed 408
5.984@112.52
422 Indy headed small block
5.982@112.56 mph
9.42@138.27

Livin and lovin life one day at a time




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