Re: CNC'd ported vs hand ported heads: Discussion, long post
[Re: pittsburghracer]
#1878322
07/26/15 11:14 AM
07/26/15 11:14 AM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,206 New York
polyspheric
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master
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Posts: 4,206
New York
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How valuable is hand finishing after CNC? That depends on how small the tool pass increments are. A program that makes 10,000 passes 1 micron apart won't need any "fix up" work.
Tool deflection can't be eliminated, but how many axes of rotation the head can make, and how small it is will reduce it (along with making very small, slow passes).
"Designing a port in CAD" doesn't mean what it sounds like. Just like fuel injection, CAD knows only what you tell it - it doesn't answer questions or compare possible solutions. You're thinking of CFD.
Does anyone out there still think CFM is the goal?
Boffin Emeritus
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Re: CNC'd ported vs hand ported heads: Discussion, long post
[Re: polyspheric]
#1878332
07/26/15 11:30 AM
07/26/15 11:30 AM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,152 PA.
pittsburghracer
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"Little"John
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"Little"John
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You sure know how to get your point across. Was there a point?
1970 Duster Edelbrock headed 408 5.984@112.52 422 Indy headed small block 5.982@112.56 mph 9.42@138.27
Livin and lovin life one day at a time
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Re: CNC'd ported vs hand ported heads: Discussion, long post
[Re: pittsburghracer]
#1878457
07/26/15 03:03 PM
07/26/15 03:03 PM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,206 New York
polyspheric
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master
Joined: Oct 2007
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New York
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And your point is that you have no manners?
Boffin Emeritus
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Re: CNC'd ported vs hand ported heads: Discussion, long post
[Re: AndyF]
#1878561
07/26/15 06:23 PM
07/26/15 06:23 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 13,247 Mt. Vernon, Ohio
dartman366
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I Live Here
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I've had a fair amount of CNC heads on the dyno and lots of them run really strong. Some CNC work is so good when it comes off the machine you really don't want to touch it.
and to me that is the difference between a CNC port job from a dedicated porting shop as opposed to the aftermarket head CNC work, the dedicated shop is more likely to insure that the job is as good as they can do as opposed to XYZ head company that mass produces them by the hundreds and sell the claim that their heads are CNC ported, yep they sure are looks like someone ported them with ball nosed end mill at 500% feed rate.
Light travels faster than the speed of sound,,,this is why some people seem bright untill you hear them speak.
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Re: CNC'd ported vs hand ported heads: Discussion, long post
[Re: AndyF]
#1878913
07/27/15 02:27 AM
07/27/15 02:27 AM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
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Romeo MI
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Chapman is one of the guys who figured this stuff out 20 years ago. If you go dig around the internet looking for articles on Chapman you'll find a bunch of cool stuff. He was using CNC porting to win NASCAR races 15 years ago. I think he was one of the first guys to get raw castings from the head mfgs and then machine the entire port. I don't think they did much if any hand finish work on Chapman heads. Chapman is the last set of heads I bought... very nice CNC stuff and I still touched them up.. only due to the spacing of the cuts... I didnt get carried away but did pick up 3 cfm... that was on the same machine
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Re: CNC'd ported vs hand ported heads: Discussion, long post
[Re: Porter67]
#1878978
07/27/15 10:37 AM
07/27/15 10:37 AM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,152 PA.
pittsburghracer
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"Little"John
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"Little"John
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I know if I live long enough and keep testing I will find a CNC'd head that acts and runs the way it should. No such luck yet and my Friend was really disappointed in his CNC'd AFR220's but we got them calmed down and his small block chevy truck cranked out a 10.40 two weeks ago.
1970 Duster Edelbrock headed 408 5.984@112.52 422 Indy headed small block 5.982@112.56 mph 9.42@138.27
Livin and lovin life one day at a time
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Re: CNC'd ported vs hand ported heads: Discussion, long post
[Re: pittsburghracer]
#1879043
07/27/15 12:34 PM
07/27/15 12:34 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 11,706 Portage,michigan
B3422W5
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I know if I live long enough and keep testing I will find a CNC'd head that acts and runs the way it should. No such luck yet and my Friend was really disappointed in his CNC'd AFR220's but we got them calmed down and his small block chevy truck cranked out a 10.40 two weeks ago. You must not have read my post earlier in this thread, John. Guy who bought my old car with W5 motor. Heads were fully hand ported by a small block Mopar head porter to the Max. I ran them a few years, new owner ran them several years. They were obviously thin, and finally started leaking water and became unusable. He had the motor freshened up while the old heads were still on it, and had it dyno'ed and he raced it...... Heads went bad, he bought new w5 heads, had Modern CNC them( I believe the program was based on the hand port by the same guy). Anyhow put new heads on same motor, takes it to same dyno, takes it to same track. Bearing in mind the CNC was kept " small" because of known W5 core shift, the motor lost about 20 horse and a tenth at the track...... So very, very little..... And considering the heads now have integrity, I would rather have them than the original, thin hand ported units. the above is dyno and track tested proof of excellent CNC results. So there are good programs out there.
Last edited by B3422W5; 07/27/15 12:36 PM.
69 Dart GTS A4 Silver All steel, flat factory hood, 3360race weight 418 BPE factory replacement headed stroker, 565 lift solid cam Best so far, 10.40 @127 1/4 1.41 best 60 foot 6.60 at 103.90 1/8
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Re: CNC'd ported vs hand ported heads: Discussion, long post
[Re: justinp61]
#1879047
07/27/15 12:39 PM
07/27/15 12:39 PM
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Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 5,183
Porter67
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The same thing happened more or less, so the tractor ended up going to europe and being sold in the mid 80-s. But they never did find the nitrous bottle that was hidden by the water tank, built around it. It was hell on crankshafts and blocks. The project head I mentioned was a single cam and only twin t-17s in series which was the norm then. Alot of varied opinions here, good pints in all. Im not sure if there is a right or wrong answer all things considered.
In the pulling world here is a neat head if you got deep deep pockets.
I recall 1n 79-80 when this started it was just a block of al. and a old bridgeport. At the time it was just a few hours a day between jobs and didnt seem that big of a deal or project, but it was.
This head is said to go over 500 cfm and then add two big turbos....I dont think a head like this would need any cleanup work.
My cousins built John Deer pulling tractors years ago, they built a dual overhead cam cross flow head for one. Then NTPA outlawed it after one season, said it wasn't a production piece as JD at the time wasn't a cross flow head. Heck I didn't think the three to five turbos were production either.
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Re: CNC'd ported vs hand ported heads: Discussion, long post
[Re: B3422W5]
#1879076
07/27/15 01:19 PM
07/27/15 01:19 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,152 PA.
pittsburghracer
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"Little"John
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OP
"Little"John
Joined: Feb 2005
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I know if I live long enough and keep testing I will find a CNC'd head that acts and runs the way it should. No such luck yet and my Friend was really disappointed in his CNC'd AFR220's but we got them calmed down and his small block chevy truck cranked out a 10.40 two weeks ago. You must not have read my post earlier in this thread, John. Guy who bought my old car with W5 motor. Heads were fully hand ported by a small block Mopar head porter to the Max. I ran them a few years, new owner ran them several years. They were obviously thin, and finally started leaking water and became unusable. He had the motor freshened up while the old heads were still on it, and had it dyno'ed and he raced it...... Heads went bad, he bought new w5 heads, had Modern CNC them( I believe the program was based on the hand port by the same guy). Anyhow put new heads on same motor, takes it to same dyno, takes it to same track. Bearing in mind the CNC was kept " small" because of known W5 core shift, the motor lost about 20 horse and a tenth at the track...... So very, very little..... And considering the heads now have integrity, I would rather have them than the original, thin hand ported units. the above is dyno and track tested proof of excellent CNC results. So there are good programs out there. I'm sure there are but if I personally was going to set up and sell a CNC'd head I would want to see dyno and track results BEFORE I purchased and set up their program. As I said I've never flow tested a CNC'd head yet that did not go turbulent. Not saying they aren't out there. Those Toyota heads are state of art and are not your typical store bought program. Trouble is now is that the big companies don't really care if its right or not.
1970 Duster Edelbrock headed 408 5.984@112.52 422 Indy headed small block 5.982@112.56 mph 9.42@138.27
Livin and lovin life one day at a time
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Re: CNC'd ported vs hand ported heads: Discussion, long post
[Re: pittsburghracer]
#1880307
07/28/15 08:49 PM
07/28/15 08:49 PM
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Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 610 long time lurker, short time p...
PorkyPig
mopar
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mopar
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Posts: 610
long time lurker, short time p...
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As I said I've never flow tested a CNC'd head yet that did not go turbulent. Because its a mass production of a poor design, or because the mass production type of CNC porting leaves a surface finish more likely to have problems that cause that turbulence?
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Re: CNC'd ported vs hand ported heads: Discussion, long post
[Re: PorkyPig]
#1880477
07/29/15 01:03 AM
07/29/15 01:03 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,484 SoCal
Brian Hafliger
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SoCal
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As I said I've never flow tested a CNC'd head yet that did not go turbulent. Because its a mass production of a poor design, or because the mass production type of CNC porting leaves a surface finish more likely to have problems that cause that turbulence? Or because the inlet radius used could be causing it...if a port is turbulent, sometimes flowing with the intake on will help and I've seen this run pretty good in a car. My old W2 headed 360 was like that. It ran well for what it was.
Brian Hafliger
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Re: CNC'd ported vs hand ported heads: Discussion, long post
[Re: Brian Hafliger]
#1880568
07/29/15 09:28 AM
07/29/15 09:28 AM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,152 PA.
pittsburghracer
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"Little"John
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"Little"John
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I have 1/2 thick radiused lexan inlet plates that I use for every head that I flow so that isn't an issue. Almost every head is tested with an intake mounted as my Friends that I do work for are usually there to see the before and after numbers of not only the head but also with the intake bolted on. Each and every head and sometimes every port are checked for air-speed throughout the port which will show you exactly where the issue is and what needs done to correct the problem. They could and should be checking this too but its all about the "bottom line" for them and many others.
1970 Duster Edelbrock headed 408 5.984@112.52 422 Indy headed small block 5.982@112.56 mph 9.42@138.27
Livin and lovin life one day at a time
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