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question about con rod fasteners... #186848
01/07/09 05:10 PM
01/07/09 05:10 PM
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dirtybee Offline OP
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i'm just curious about connecting rods and why all the newer style h beams and fancy i beams all use cap screws instead of a bolt and nut like the oem rods. then look at hi performance engines today and the main caps and heads are all held down with nuts on studs. aren't studs way stronger than bolts? so why the trend to move to bolts on one of the most important components of the engine instead of a nut and bolt?.....winter.....snow......bored....any engine gurus feel like enlightening me?

Re: question about con rod fasteners... [Re: dirtybee] #186849
01/07/09 05:20 PM
01/07/09 05:20 PM
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Moparnut426 Offline
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As far as I know they are all torque to yield, which means the bolt accually stretches a thou or two, and that keeps the cap from shifting at all I guess. Im no engineer, but that makes sence.

Re: question about con rod fasteners... [Re: dirtybee] #186850
01/07/09 05:29 PM
01/07/09 05:29 PM
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jcc Offline
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Quote:

aren't studs way stronger than bolts?




IMo not really, but the torquing process is better and likely more reliable/consistent, a worthy question in all, here's a bump.


Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
Re: question about con rod fasteners... [Re: jcc] #186851
01/07/09 05:37 PM
01/07/09 05:37 PM
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dirtybee Offline OP
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i'm pretty sure i've read that the clamping force of studs is superior to bolts, otherwise... why use 'em? another bump

Re: question about con rod fasteners... [Re: dirtybee] #186852
01/07/09 06:28 PM
01/07/09 06:28 PM
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maximum entropy Offline
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consider what the bolt is threading into. cast iron? stud is a major improvement. threading into 4340? a bolt will do just fine. and you're not relying on the fastener for alignment of the cap. the rod can also be profiled for more clearance without a notch at the base of the beam.

Last edited by maximum entropy; 01/07/09 06:30 PM.

for what is the good life if not doing things thoughtfully?
Re: question about con rod fasteners... [Re: maximum entropy] #186853
01/07/09 06:43 PM
01/07/09 06:43 PM
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dizuster Offline
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I'm not a fastener engineer, but I'll take my best guess at it.

First of all you need to think about the total length of a rod fastener vs. a main cap fastener. If you use a bolt on the main cap, a large portion of your torque is actually twisting the bolt itself, not threading it in further. So the force is transfered through the large shaft of the bolt, before it can get to threads. Since the main bolts are very long, this creates a twisting problem (think torsion bar). If you put a stud in it, the force is immidiately put on the nut to tighten the fastener. It doesn't have to go down the shaft of the stud to get to apply the energy to tighten it.

Rod bolts are obviously much shorter, and don't have to deal with this problem. Also, if you think about putting studs in a rod, the top portion of the stud is actually fairly thin. That thin section is the only thing preventing that stud from pulling through the rod. Also, this creates a very high stress concentration at that loading point. Where as if you put a bolt in it, the threads help distribute the load through the rod more evenly.

Lastly as mentioned, the profile of the rod can be trimmed down (lighter, more clearance, etc...) if you use a bolt.

Like I said, I'm not a fastener engineer so someone may tell me I'm wrong?

But that's how I see it...

Re: question about con rod fasteners... [Re: dizuster] #186854
01/07/09 07:07 PM
01/07/09 07:07 PM
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dirtybee Offline OP
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interesting. i've also often wondered where material is removed from the newer style rods for balancing as there is no pad at either end like an oem rod. as you can probably tell i'm still in the dark ages using the orig. LY rods and std orig cast pistons in what is probably a horribly out of round barrel shaped bore. but i digress, so to balance an h beam material is removed from the area that the bolt head on an ly rod would be? btw i'm still not sure how a cap screw is stronger than a nut on a rod bolt but maybe i'm just

Re: question about con rod fasteners... [Re: dirtybee] #186855
01/07/09 07:15 PM
01/07/09 07:15 PM
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maximum entropy Offline
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material is removed from the ends, same as i beams. i've only seen very small amounts removed. my guess is that manufacturing methods are much more accurate these days? even overseas? stand by for imbroglio!


for what is the good life if not doing things thoughtfully?
Re: question about con rod fasteners... [Re: maximum entropy] #186856
01/07/09 09:57 PM
01/07/09 09:57 PM
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On the subject of aftermarket h-beam rods, does anyone NOT re-size their rods with bolt replacements when they have dowels to locate the caps?

Re: question about con rod fasteners... [Re: dirtybee] #186857
01/07/09 11:10 PM
01/07/09 11:10 PM
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torkrules Offline
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Quote:

i'm just curious about connecting rods and why all the newer style h beams and fancy i beams all use cap screws instead of a bolt and nut like the oem rods. then look at hi performance engines today and the main caps and heads are all held down with nuts on studs. aren't studs way stronger than bolts? so why the trend to move to bolts on one of the most important components of the engine instead of a nut and bolt?.....winter.....snow......bored....any engine gurus feel like enlightening me?




Rod bolts need to have a broached "notch" for clearance for the bolt head and to register the flat part of the bolt. This leaves a weak spot in the rod. With cap screws this operation is not needed and more material is available around the big end.

Re: question about con rod fasteners... [Re: torkrules] #186858
01/08/09 12:05 AM
01/08/09 12:05 AM
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That doesn't sound right to me, most high dollar bolts with partial thread lenght are necked down to the small thread root diameter anyway, to even out stresses anyway, if I understood your comment correctly.


Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
Re: question about con rod fasteners... [Re: jcc] #186859
01/08/09 12:50 AM
01/08/09 12:50 AM
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Quote:

That doesn't sound right to me, most high dollar bolts with partial thread lenght are necked down to the small thread root diameter anyway, to even out stresses anyway, if I understood your comment correctly.




What torkrules is actually refering to is the area on the connecting rod that is broached for clearance for the rod bolt head... It definately creates a weak area

Re: question about con rod fasteners... [Re: 1_WILD_RT] #186860
01/08/09 02:05 AM
01/08/09 02:05 AM
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Doesn't that area need to be "broached" regardless if its a bolt or a stud/nut?, and therefore not a factor regarding the better solution?


Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
Re: question about con rod fasteners... [Re: jcc] #186861
01/08/09 02:39 AM
01/08/09 02:39 AM
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1_WILD_RT Offline
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No the cap still needs to be broached but the rod is not..

Re: question about con rod fasteners... [Re: 1_WILD_RT] #186862
01/08/09 03:42 AM
01/08/09 03:42 AM
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jcc Offline
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Yes, you absolutely correct, guess I was only looking at one "side", pun intended


Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
Re: question about con rod fasteners... [Re: torkrules] #186863
01/08/09 10:31 AM
01/08/09 10:31 AM
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dirtybee Offline OP
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Quote:


Rod bolts need to have a broached "notch" for clearance for the bolt head and to register the flat part of the bolt. This leaves a weak spot in the rod. With cap screws this operation is not needed and more material is available around the big end.



ok, now that actually makes alot of sense. thanks

Re: question about con rod fasteners... [Re: 1_WILD_RT] #186864
01/08/09 01:55 PM
01/08/09 01:55 PM
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torkrules Offline
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Quote:

No the cap still needs to be broached but the rod is not..




What he said.







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