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Machinists, engine builders opinion needed please #1860234
06/30/15 05:05 AM
06/30/15 05:05 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,207
Menomonee Falls
DemonDust Offline OP
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I got my block back from the machine shop. I'm kinda anal so before anything I cleaned it all up real good and took some measurements. The cylinders were supposed to be cleaned up to whatever the largest bore was. I was told that it was 4.185, now as I'm checking the bores they are all under by anywhere from from .0007-.0026 and top to bottom they vary around .0003-.0008

I was skeptical that my tools were off at first, so I brought them to work with me and took them to the machine shop where they have full time guys calibrating with state of the art equipment. I also had my standards checked. Everything came back OK.

So before I go back to the engine machine shop, how close can you get with a hone? Are these numbers typical? Or is this not acceptable? I just dropped $1800 on a set of custom pistons for a 4.185 bore, I don't want to have problems.


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Re: Machinists, engine builders opinion needed please [Re: DemonDust] #1860235
06/30/15 05:09 AM
06/30/15 05:09 AM
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Menomonee Falls
DemonDust Offline OP
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The calibration room kept my tools for 24 hours, they said they needed to sit for like 10 hours in this climate controlled steel room so the molecules could settle down and they could get accurate readings.

So I know they didn't cut any corners.


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Re: Machinists, engine builders opinion needed please [Re: DemonDust] #1860236
06/30/15 05:15 AM
06/30/15 05:15 AM
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Washington
skrews Offline
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Were the torque plates and main caps installed when making these measurements ?

Last edited by skrews; 06/30/15 05:16 AM.
Re: Machinists, engine builders opinion needed please [Re: skrews] #1860238
06/30/15 05:27 AM
06/30/15 05:27 AM
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Menomonee Falls
DemonDust Offline OP
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Main caps are installed but not torqued.

No torque plate.


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Re: Machinists, engine builders opinion needed please [Re: DemonDust] #1860241
06/30/15 07:22 AM
06/30/15 07:22 AM
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Canada
WO23Coronet Offline
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I'm not an engine machinist but did a lot of general machining in a past life, but that seems way out of whack to me, especially with it being undersized. The taper is from improper honing. Are the bores out of round, and were they honed with a torque plate? I can't make sense of it being undersized, as it stands you can't even get the pistons in.

Last edited by WO23Coronet; 06/30/15 07:25 AM.
Re: Machinists, engine builders opinion needed please [Re: DemonDust] #1860245
06/30/15 07:49 AM
06/30/15 07:49 AM
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Menomonee Falls
DemonDust Offline OP
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I was told they used a torque plate when honing.

Piston skirts are 4.177


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Re: Machinists, engine builders opinion needed please [Re: DemonDust] #1860246
06/30/15 07:53 AM
06/30/15 07:53 AM
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Menomonee Falls
DemonDust Offline OP
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I only checked thrust sides top, middle, and bottom. I'll check non thrust sides today.


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Re: Machinists, engine builders opinion needed please [Re: DemonDust] #1860255
06/30/15 08:43 AM
06/30/15 08:43 AM
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Menomonee Falls
DemonDust Offline OP
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I've only checked the top of bores before with my calipers, I've always took for granted they bored/honed the block correctly.

I decided to buy a nice dial bore gauge a while back. Hence the reason I'm asking these questions.


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Hellcat Demon and Redeye Supercharger CNC Porting
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Re: Machinists, engine builders opinion needed please [Re: DemonDust] #1860258
06/30/15 08:55 AM
06/30/15 08:55 AM
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Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
gregsdart Offline
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Be sure and set the block up the exact way it was machined, mains torqued honing plates on, and temp normalized over night at room temp. Tools also. Then you will know where you are.


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Re: Machinists, engine builders opinion needed please [Re: DemonDust] #1860260
06/30/15 09:12 AM
06/30/15 09:12 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,207
Menomonee Falls
DemonDust Offline OP
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Has anyone built their own torque plates? I'm not gonna spend $700 just so I can check my bores.

Tools and block are all the same temp.

I will torque the mains and see if there is any difference.

Do you guys just take the machine shops work for granted? I can't imagine everyone has torque plates laying around, or for that matter a .0001 bore gauge.


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Re: Machinists, engine builders opinion needed please [Re: DemonDust] #1860402
06/30/15 11:55 AM
06/30/15 11:55 AM
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Benton, IL.
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DaveRS23 Offline
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Bear with me on this question, obviously I am not a machinist. I understand the importance of torquing the mains and having torque plates. But in real operating conditions, how do you know what the cylinder's measurements are? When measuring to the ten thousands and room temperature can impact the measurements, what are the measurements of that cylinder at temp and under load? Just as an example; wouldn't the top of the cylinder have more heat than the bottom? And wouldn't that impact the measurements?

I am just wondering about the difference in room temperature dimensions vs. real operating dimensions and how does getting the room temperature dimensions as perfect as possible impact the cylinder's shape when it's actually running? An I wrong to think that the cylinder will be different when up to temp and operating under load? And how much does it change?


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Re: Machinists, engine builders opinion needed please [Re: DemonDust] #1860463
06/30/15 01:08 PM
06/30/15 01:08 PM
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Bend,OR USA
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Cab_Burge Online work
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I'm one of those that has a dial bore gauge, or 3 shruggy and torque plates, if you measure one of the BB Mopars honed with a torque plate and then remeasure it without the plate you will see a difference in size and shape, especially on the first two inches form the top of the block shock Take the block back to the shop that did the work along with your gauges and ask them to mock up the plate on one side and have them measure it with thier gauges and then you meausre it with your gauges scope, Compare sizes work up I've seen over two thousand differences in the way two different machinest measure the same bore and pistons shock I like my clearances looser than most shops use, most shops do everyday general rebuilds, not Hi Po high RPM stuff like we race work shruggy There are problem in every line of work, you need to figure out how to get the results you want the way you measure up BTW, dial calipers are for getting you in the ballpark, not for accurate measuring tsk IHTHs up
Call BHJ Products for a torque plate price, they make and sell most of the ones used in most shops, 510-797-6780 scope The last iron BB Mopar 4.520 bore size plate I bought earlier this year was a lot less than your price shruggy work

Last edited by Cab_Burge; 06/30/15 01:13 PM.

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Re: Machinists, engine builders opinion needed please [Re: DemonDust] #1860483
06/30/15 01:32 PM
06/30/15 01:32 PM
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IL
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EchoSixMike Offline
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IL
Put the heads on and measure from the bottom. S/F....Ken M

Re: Machinists, engine builders opinion needed please [Re: EchoSixMike] #1860526
06/30/15 02:28 PM
06/30/15 02:28 PM
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Affton MO
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qwkmopardan Offline
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Originally Posted By EchoSixMike
Put the heads on and measure from the bottom. S/F....Ken M



Exactly the way to do it.

Re: Machinists, engine builders opinion needed please [Re: DemonDust] #1860543
06/30/15 02:59 PM
06/30/15 02:59 PM
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U.S.S.A.
JohnRR Offline
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Originally Posted By R5P7Duster
Has anyone built their own torque plates? I'm not gonna spend $700 just so I can check my bores.

Tools and block are all the same temp.

I will torque the mains and see if there is any difference.

Do you guys just take the machine shops work for granted? I can't imagine everyone has torque plates laying around, or for that matter a .0001 bore gauge.


You can not expect to get the correct readings if you are not setting the block up the same way as it was machined , the mains have to be installed AND torqued , same for the torque plate ...

Re: Machinists, engine builders opinion needed please [Re: DaveRS23] #1860549
06/30/15 03:04 PM
06/30/15 03:04 PM
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U.S.S.A.
JohnRR Offline
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Originally Posted By DaveRS23
Bear with me on this question, obviously I am not a machinist. I understand the importance of torquing the mains and having torque plates. But in real operating conditions, how do you know what the cylinder's measurements are? When measuring to the ten thousands and room temperature can impact the measurements, what are the measurements of that cylinder at temp and under load? Just as an example; wouldn't the top of the cylinder have more heat than the bottom? And wouldn't that impact the measurements?

I am just wondering about the difference in room temperature dimensions vs. real operating dimensions and how does getting the room temperature dimensions as perfect as possible impact the cylinder's shape when it's actually running? An I wrong to think that the cylinder will be different when up to temp and operating under load? And how much does it change?



Everything can make a difference, you try to get it as close as possible to assembled/operating conditions if you are looking for every last tenth of a HP .

Temp plays a role, some builders will get the block up to operating temp, not sure exactly how, and do the final hone like that. Using head studs ? Put the torque plate on with the head studs and put spacers as need to get the studs torqued to spec. Using a main girdle ... install it ... anything that will distort the cylinders and bottom end of the block .

Re: Machinists, engine builders opinion needed please [Re: DemonDust] #1860563
06/30/15 03:21 PM
06/30/15 03:21 PM
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Stuttgart, Arkansas
rickseeman Offline
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Not trying to be a dh but how are you going to measure anything when you get it home? It doesn't have a torque plate on it anymore and you don't have a dial bore gauge in tenths. How could you measure anything?


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Re: Machinists, engine builders opinion needed please [Re: rickseeman] #1860591
06/30/15 04:04 PM
06/30/15 04:04 PM
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Downtown Roebuck Ont
Twostick Offline
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Originally Posted By rickseeman
Not trying to be a dh but how are you going to measure anything when you get it home? It doesn't have a torque plate on it anymore and you don't have a dial bore gauge in tenths. How could you measure anything?


Quoted from OP

Quote:
I've only checked the top of bores before with my calipers, I've always took for granted they bored/honed the block correctly.

I decided to buy a nice dial bore gauge a while back. Hence the reason I'm asking these questions.


Kevin

Re: Machinists, engine builders opinion needed please [Re: Twostick] #1860614
06/30/15 04:45 PM
06/30/15 04:45 PM
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Lynchburg, VA
Leon441 Offline
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His dial bore gauge reads in tenths. He gave his measurements in tenths.

I would torque mains. They are 6 bolt but have cross bolts. The way these blocks are made I would be surprised if it corrected the .002" small in the bottom of bore. The lower water passage seriously supports the lower cylinder. The head studs do not pull from the top of deck like others. They are longer and pull deeper. But, the block is open deck. Like someone else said bolt the heads on and check from the crank side. 200° water circulating through block wouldn't hurt for real world numbers. A small water heater and a pump. LOL Or connect to heater hoses on something at operating temperature. If your anal.

Seriously, I would be concerned with the tight cylinder. Let block set in sun for an afternoon. Your gauges at 70° then after the sun goes down check that tight area again.

Who had an R5 torque plate?


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Re: Machinists, engine builders opinion needed please [Re: Leon441] #1860696
06/30/15 06:12 PM
06/30/15 06:12 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY Offline
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Basically I use the difference of the 2 items(bore and pistons)in
the same environment(temp).. if the pistons show 4.178 and the bore
shows 4.1843.. I would let it fly.. both are smaller by about the same..
I dont know many guys that have deck plates to test with... and if
it blows up due to this small amount... you better redesign
wave

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