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Overheating issues in 508 #1833699
05/25/15 09:21 AM
05/25/15 09:21 AM
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Watertown, WI
MikeyT Offline OP
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Hi guys,

Finally got the 508 in the road runner and am now trying to determine a slight over heating issue.. I have a 26" 3 core champion radiators with 440source pump, housing on front and 185 stat..

Car keeps cool at first start up and while on cruising on highway, will keep cool, but when doing stop and go traffic, starts to heat up and will overheat ( has not yet)
A few and questions

Engine is breaking in has about 75 miles on it ( just a baby)
I will check heat with heat gun at spots
I suspect 440source pump, will my old cast iron one work better?

Thanks guys,


1969 Dodge Dart Swinger
Re: Overheating issues in 508 [Re: MikeyT] #1833728
05/25/15 10:43 AM
05/25/15 10:43 AM
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ahy Offline
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Generally cool when rolling and hot at a stop is air flow related. You did not mention the fan setup... that is really important at slow speeds.

Another thing to check is tuneup. Adequate ignition advance helps the engine run cool at low speeds. With a performance cam you may need ~20 degrees initial. That and idle/low speed mixture in the ball part (not lean) helps.

Re: Overheating issues in 508 [Re: MikeyT] #1833761
05/25/15 11:40 AM
05/25/15 11:40 AM
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MikeyT Offline OP
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Thanks Ahy,

You are a 100% right..
So it is stock location fan, but the champion radiator doesn't have a shroud on it, and previously my old 440 cooled fine without, I plan on adding it going forward..

I will check the plugs and see if they appear leaned out.. I will also bump up initial.

My concern is the 440source pump, I got it before I read some grumbling on here, thought it might be the culprit and thought maybe I should toss it and put the old iron one on from my 440 instead of using it as a paperweight:)

Do you think the lack of a shrould and tuning issues could be the more likely culprit?

Mikey

Last edited by MikeyT; 05/25/15 11:41 AM.

1969 Dodge Dart Swinger
Re: Overheating issues in 508 [Re: MikeyT] #1833768
05/25/15 11:51 AM
05/25/15 11:51 AM
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smos001 Offline
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agree,

Add shroud,
and tune makes a big difference. I have a AFR gauge on my built 383. When I am lean the temp goes up. The AFR gauge was the best investment for tuning the carb.
I have about 20 initial and 36 total. I also have a flowkooler water pump.
Great pump.
I run right on the thermostat for temps most of the time.

Re: Overheating issues in 508 [Re: MikeyT] #1833769
05/25/15 11:52 AM
05/25/15 11:52 AM
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RapidRobert Offline
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the 440 cooled OK with the same rad/fan distance/no shroud? did the 440 have the 'source alum pump? If no on the pump Q reportedly iirc there was a run of restricted 'source pumps way back which has been resolved. a quick pump housing swao including the pump itself if it is a scroll type would ans that. What Ahy said #1-air. I'm assuming same pulley ratio. If it ain't the pump/housing I'm not grasping what is different unless it is the eng but OK at speed pretty much elims the eng & points to air or water speed unless the timing is too retarded at the RPM's it is running hot at


live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
Re: Overheating issues in 508 [Re: MikeyT] #1833778
05/25/15 12:03 PM
05/25/15 12:03 PM
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Watertown, WI
MikeyT Offline OP
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Thanks guys

The old mild 440 had cast iron everything on it, again with no shroud which I will add.
The engine has a quickfuel HR 850 mechanical secondary on it..so if it is flow, would that mean bigger Rad? All things being equal.

Mikey


1969 Dodge Dart Swinger
Re: Overheating issues in 508 [Re: MikeyT] #1833784
05/25/15 12:10 PM
05/25/15 12:10 PM
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RapidRobert Offline
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the rad was fine with the 440 so its OK with the 508, it's something else


live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
Re: Overheating issues in 508 [Re: MikeyT] #1833792
05/25/15 12:19 PM
05/25/15 12:19 PM
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MikeyT Offline OP
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Good to know... Thanks Robert, well we will fiddle with tune and add shroud... I also will take a few temp readings and get back to you with those as well.

Mikey


1969 Dodge Dart Swinger
Re: Overheating issues in 508 [Re: MikeyT] #1833814
05/25/15 01:02 PM
05/25/15 01:02 PM
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RapidRobert Offline
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before I get rolling for the day tell me what is different other than the mtrs? same rad same fan distance same hoses same pulleys. Me I'd change out the pump/pump housing first, before I touched the eng, temp gun is OK but you already know it is hot


live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
Re: Overheating issues in 508 [Re: MikeyT] #1833818
05/25/15 01:13 PM
05/25/15 01:13 PM
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feets Offline
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Forget the pump. There is rarely an appreciable real world difference.

Get a shroud on there and watch your problems go away.


We are brothers and sisters doing time on the planet for better or worse. I'll take the better, if you don't mind.
- Stu Harmon
Re: Overheating issues in 508 [Re: feets] #1833827
05/25/15 01:21 PM
05/25/15 01:21 PM
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RapidRobert Offline
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some of the alum housings are restricted/defective (I have one). iirc someone mentioned the scroll type vanes might not flow enough. Plus that'd be easy stuff to check/change. if it was Ok wo the shroud before its OK with it now unless something is fubared in the new eng making it produce way more heat which means the eng is the prob not the shroud


live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
Re: Overheating issues in 508 [Re: MikeyT] #1833837
05/25/15 01:33 PM
05/25/15 01:33 PM
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The restrictive housings were corrected 7 or 8 years ago. There shouldn't be many (if any) of those in new stock.

I remember that highly detailed water pump test done on the FMC motorhome with a 440. There was not much difference in water pump volume. All of them moved enough to cool a motor at any regular engine speed.


We are brothers and sisters doing time on the planet for better or worse. I'll take the better, if you don't mind.
- Stu Harmon
Re: Overheating issues in 508 [Re: ahy] #1833885
05/25/15 02:29 PM
05/25/15 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted By ahy
Generally cool when rolling and hot at a stop is air flow related.


Pay attention folks, this is a key point.

If you have overheating issues at idle the problem is not likely water flow related.

Heat generated is a factor of HP, period. You might only have 60 more cubes, but how many more HP than the "cooled just fine 440"?

I had a 413 that ran just fine temp wise, then I rebuilt it and warmed it up some. It would overheat at idle and low road speeds, but before the rebuild it didn't do that. I did a bunch of stuff to fix it, even put in a bigger radiator. Nothing helped till I got a shroud then no more issues.


They say there are no such thing as a stupid question.
They say there is always the exception that proves the rule.
Don't be the exception.
Re: Overheating issues in 508 [Re: MikeyT] #1833909
05/25/15 02:57 PM
05/25/15 02:57 PM
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Watertown, WI
MikeyT Offline OP
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yeah this 508, hopefully makes HP in bunches compared to my nice modest and decent but lower compression 440.

here is the info same pulleys, same distance from the fan, no shroud, different carb, same headers, same smart ass driver too! smile

Mikey


1969 Dodge Dart Swinger
Re: Overheating issues in 508 [Re: MikeyT] #1834017
05/25/15 05:30 PM
05/25/15 05:30 PM
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I have a 400>>499 stroker and I run a Summit 3 row aluminum radiator and dual electric fans. I have the 440 source WP and WP housing and my mess stays cool no matter what. I know people ding the 440Source stuff but so far, I have had zero issues with their cooling parts.

I would recommend that you go with the shroud to really direct that airflow through the radiator as opposed to pulling it from the sides. As stated before, if you are cool while moving but over heating at low speeds/idle, then this is airflow-related...period. You can add all the upgraded radiator/WP/WP housings you want but it won't fix the problem.

Try the shroud first. If that doesn't fix it, might be time to look at a fan upgrade..

A bump in initial timing to 16* or more would also help the cooling overall.

Re: Overheating issues in 508 [Re: cjskotni] #1834112
05/25/15 08:14 PM
05/25/15 08:14 PM
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I run a 540" HEMI that made over 600 HP while breaking it in on the dyno. 10.78 compression etc. It runs a max of 15 degrees over the thermostat (Hi Speed freeway for lots of miles). EVERYTHING in the cooling system is factory! The only exception would be a hi efficiency core in the STOCK 26" radiator. Pulleys clutch fan, the works. The shroud is a STOCK repro for the 66' B body, it fits tight. Did you ever notice the rubber that seals the front and back of the hood? Are yours still there? All of this was installed at the factory for a reason, to prevent overheating and warranty expense! The auto manufacturers wouldn't put a $.01 part on a car that wasn't needed! Even though the design is 49 years old, it still works. As mentioned before, the tune up, especially the timing MUST be right as well, but you would want that for performance right?

Re: Overheating issues in 508 [Re: Hemi ragtop] #1834527
05/26/15 01:53 PM
05/26/15 01:53 PM
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Heat isn't related to horsepower POTENTIAL, it's related to horsepower USED. So unless you are dragging a trailer now, and weren't with your original setup, the horsepower used in steady-state driving is the same, therefore heat should be the same.

Doesn,t matter if the engine has 80 hp or 8,000,000 hp, if it takes 35 hp to move the car, that's what the engine will make.

R.

Last edited by dogdays; 05/26/15 01:54 PM.
Re: Overheating issues in 508 [Re: MikeyT] #1839567
06/02/15 10:31 AM
06/02/15 10:31 AM
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MikeyT Offline OP
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Ok, fan shroud is on, took it for a cruise last night. It seems somewhat better but was still warming up to about right in middle of my factory gau. I think it would of kept going frown

Ok, so shroud helped but did not fix it

Mikey

Ok so parts

Champion 26 radiator 4 core
Fan shroud
17 inch mechanical blade
440souce housing passenger side outlet
440source water pump
Timing 24* initial 34* total


J


1969 Dodge Dart Swinger
Re: Overheating issues in 508 [Re: MikeyT] #1839586
06/02/15 11:16 AM
06/02/15 11:16 AM
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It's not that big a pain it the butt , I would swap in your paperweight and see what happens .

Have you run the infrared temp checker yet to see what's hot ? Check the header tube temps at idle .

Re: Overheating issues in 508 [Re: MikeyT] #1839637
06/02/15 12:22 PM
06/02/15 12:22 PM
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Are you using a clutch fan ????
Is the fan positioned correctly in the shroud??
are the pulley ratios stock ???

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