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#1819961 - 05/06/15 01:10 AM Re: Pinion angle again [Re: Quicktree]
Monte_Smith Offline
master

Registered: 11/10/04
Posts: 6890
Loc: North Alabama
Originally Posted By Quicktree
Originally Posted By Monte_Smith
Originally Posted By Quicktree
Monte you know i respect you as one of the most knowledgeable guys on the board or anywhere as far as that goes. is there any negative to setting off the tail ?
What if the front is the lowest joint and the tail points down........whatcha gonna do then. Would you go positive, if the angles dictated you do that to make it RIGHT in your thoughts, even though positive pinion angle is NEVER desired in a performance car. That's the only question that needs to be answered. What would YOU do in above scenario. Your car, his car, that car..........doesn't matter whos car. If the rule is the rule, what are gonna do if the trans is pointing down and the driveshaft runs uphill. Think about that and then ask "does it hurt" to measure off the tail.

Most big tire cars, with stock floor pans(backhalf cars) that have the motor in the stock location and angle........if the car sits anything resembling low and has a long trans, like a 727......the front joint is almost always lower than the rear. That's why there is always SO MUCH question on this stuff. They slide under there, start looking and measuring. Try to do it like the internet "experts" say and then look at it and say "that can't be right"............And they are correct, it's NOT right.

If you want your car to ride down the road 100,000 miles, be smooth as glass and never have a problem, yes sir, concern yourself with overall driveline angle. Because YES, opposite angles are the smoothest in THAT scenario. But in a RACE CAR, it just flat doesn't matter, PINION ANGLE matters and the two are NOT the same. In a ten second car, you are worrying yourself to death over something that MIGHT be in the condition you deem ideal for about 3 seconds. Other than that, it is all over the place. Just put a go-pro under your car and WATCH the angle and see how long it stays static..........So, you want to measure off the trans, knock yourself out........but it is a TOTAL waste of time. Now I don't CARE what you do. But the fact that you and others think that you have to convince the whole world that it is the ONLY RIGHT way to set one up.........well, that I have a problem with, because in EVERY scenario, it is NOT right.
I have never run into a situation where the angle is so much that it puts the rear in a positive mode. if the tranny is low and points up the rear has to point down to get to zero. then you have to roll down from there to what ever you want.
That's NOT what I said and you did NOT answer the question. Read it again..........And YES, you ARE trying to convince people. Because every time this comes up, you and SportFury 440 are the first ones on the scene to tell us all about how if you don't set it up with the proper angles, it's wrong. He even wants to hang Wolfe up by his privates and flog him apparently for giving out BAD information as he calls it. But guess what, Wolfe also sets up a LOT of stock suspension type cars(Mustangs) with the motors in stock locations and angles. So he also knows that driveshafts running uphill is common and is the reason he says to do it like he does.

Lets use your own logic against you. Would you agree, that most every factory car, has some downward angle in the rear of the motor, from the factory. Most would agree yes and be right. That factory car is set up for a certain size tire and to achieve "proper" driveline angle that you preach about......agreed?........Now, put a TALLER tire on the back, but give the car the SAME ride height. Factory geometry immediately wrecked because the pinion is HIGHER and any attempt to get "proper angle" results in positive pinion angle.........Think about that one a while.............LOL!!!


Edited by Monte_Smith (05/06/15 01:35 AM)

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#1819970 - 05/06/15 03:37 AM Re: Pinion angle again [Re: RV2]
Quicktree Offline
I Win

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 32373
there is a difference between trying to convince someone and explaining how you do it. so you are trying to convince someone every time you post? ok show me 1 post where I said it's wrong? and I haven't posted on this subject in a long time, and the only reason I did is because the op was so far off on his calculations. I knew I would get hammered by the normal crowd it happens every time. laugh2

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#1820015 - 05/06/15 08:07 AM Re: Pinion angle again [Re: RV2]
DoctorDiff Offline
master

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 7817
Loc: Polson, MT
Ideally, you want the pinion to become parallel to the transmission when the vehicle is under power. This works regardless of weather the transmission is mounted higher OR LOWER than the rearend.

For example, if the front joint is lower than the rear joint, and the transmission slopes 5 degrees downward toward the rear and the pinion slopes 2 degrees upward toward the front, the result is a 3 degree negative pinon angle. In other words, the pinion must rotate upward over 3 degrees before the angle goes positive.
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#1820027 - 05/06/15 08:29 AM Re: Pinion angle again [Re: RV2]
Jerry Kathe Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 03/03/12
Posts: 220
The input from doctor differential is spot on....if you want it right.

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#1820194 - 05/06/15 11:13 AM Re: Pinion angle again [Re: DoctorDiff]
Quicktree Offline
I Win

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 32373
Originally Posted By DoctorDiff
Ideally, you want the pinion to become parallel to the transmission when the vehicle is under power. This works regardless of weather the transmission is mounted higher OR LOWER than the rearend.

For example, if the front joint is lower than the rear joint, and the transmission slopes 5 degrees downward toward the rear and the pinion slopes 2 degrees upward toward the front, the result is a 3 degree negative pinon angle. In other words, the pinion must rotate upward over 3 degrees before the angle goes positive.
prepare for your beating laugh2

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#1820208 - 05/06/15 11:26 AM Re: Pinion angle again [Re: RV2]
Quicktree Offline
I Win

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 32373
watch this, then imagine that at 20k rpm
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=470937339716400&fref=nf


Edited by Quicktree (05/06/15 11:28 AM)

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#1820253 - 05/06/15 01:02 PM Re: Pinion angle again [Re: DoctorDiff]
Monte_Smith Offline
master

Registered: 11/10/04
Posts: 6890
Loc: North Alabama
Originally Posted By DoctorDiff
Ideally, you want the pinion to become parallel to the transmission when the vehicle is under power. This works regardless of weather the transmission is mounted higher OR LOWER than the rearend.

For example, if the front joint is lower than the rear joint, and the transmission slopes 5 degrees downward toward the rear and the pinion slopes 2 degrees upward toward the front, the result is a 3 degree negative pinon angle. In other words, the pinion must rotate upward over 3 degrees before the angle goes positive.
No, that's driveline angle and positive pinion angle. If the pinion is pointing up and the shaft is running uphill to attach to it, that is positive PINION angle in anybodys world..............You guys want positive pinion angle in your race cars........knock yourself out.........I'm done

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#1820297 - 05/06/15 01:48 PM Re: Pinion angle again [Re: RV2]
DoctorDiff Offline
master

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 7817
Loc: Polson, MT
No, that's 3 degree negative pinion angle. I did not mention any specific driveline angle.

This should be obvious to anyone who thinks about what I posted for more than 5 seconds.
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#1820322 - 05/06/15 02:37 PM Re: Pinion angle again [Re: RV2]
Monte_Smith Offline
master

Registered: 11/10/04
Posts: 6890
Loc: North Alabama
Say what?.......sure you did and I quote "for example, if the front joint is lower than rear joint, and the transmission slopes 5 degrees downward toward the rear and the pinion slopes 2 degrees upward toward the front"



If the front joint is lower, the driveshaft is most assuredly running UPHILL........if the pinion is ALSO pointing UP and these two rising lines meet, they form a point at the top correct?.......and you are telling me that is not POSITIVE pinion angle..........okie dokie then.

PINION ANGLE.....one more time PINION ANGLE is the relationship from pinion to driveshaft and nothing else. If the angle is like a teepee that's positive, if it's like a V that's negative

Quotes from Hot Rod Network...."Pinion angle simply refers to the angle of the differential’s pinion in relation to the driveshaft. But ask 10 guys about optimal pinion angle and a lively debate will ensue. To get a range of opinions, we spoke to several well-known and respected chassis builders about pinion angles"

"Pro Stock chassis builder Jerry Bickel assures us, “there is no mystery to pinion angle.” Setting the pinion angle is the final step in driveline alignment. The goal is to create a straight line from the back of the crankshaft through the transmission, driveshaft, and the pinion of the differential—under load. Due to the tendency of the pinion to rise under load, some angle must be present at rest".








Edited by Monte_Smith (05/06/15 02:38 PM)

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#1820332 - 05/06/15 02:51 PM Re: Pinion angle again [Re: Monte_Smith]
DusterDave Offline
top fuel

Registered: 07/10/10
Posts: 1822
Loc: Tampa
Originally Posted By Monte_Smith
Say what?.......sure you did and I quote "for example, if the front joint is lower than rear joint, and the transmission slopes 5 degrees downward toward the rear and the pinion slopes 2 degrees upward toward the front"



If the front joint is lower, the driveshaft is most assuredly running UPHILL........if the pinion is ALSO pointing UP and these two rising lines meet, they form a point at the top correct?.......and you are telling me that is not POSITIVE pinion angle..........okie dokie then.

PINION ANGLE.....one more time PINION ANGLE is the relationship from pinion to driveshaft and nothing else. If the angle is like a teepee that's positive, if it's like a V that's negative

Quotes from Hot Rod Network...."Pinion angle simply refers to the angle of the differential’s pinion in relation to the driveshaft. But ask 10 guys about optimal pinion angle and a lively debate will ensue. To get a range of opinions, we spoke to several well-known and respected chassis builders about pinion angles"

"Pro Stock chassis builder Jerry Bickel assures us, “there is no mystery to pinion angle.” Setting the pinion angle is the final step in driveline alignment. The goal is to create a straight line from the back of the crankshaft through the transmission, driveshaft, and the pinion of the differential—under load. Due to the tendency of the pinion to rise under load, some angle must be present at rest".

FTW drumhit
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#1820338 - 05/06/15 03:01 PM Re: Pinion angle again [Re: DusterDave]
Al_Alguire Offline


Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 16683
Loc: Rockville MD & Las Vegas
This should make things clear as mud smile


Attachments
pinion.jpg


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#1820346 - 05/06/15 03:14 PM Re: Pinion angle again [Re: RV2]
DoctorDiff Offline
master

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 7817
Loc: Polson, MT
No. I mentioned 3 degree negative pinion angle.

I did not mention any specific (2, 3, 5 degree) driveline angle.

BTW, your quote from Jerry Bickel is correct. You want the pinion to become parallel to the transmission (which is a "straight line" in some cars) when the vehicle is under power.

If you can't build a race car so the drivetrain becomes a STRAIGHT LINE under power, you build the car so the drivetrain becomes PARALLEL. This is true weather the rearend is above or below the transmission.

I thought you were "done"?
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#1820357 - 05/06/15 03:24 PM Re: Pinion angle again [Re: RV2]
CMcAllister Offline
top fuel

Registered: 12/30/05
Posts: 2164
Loc: Fulton County, PA
That chart is fine as long as the trans stays higher as is pictured. Make the trans lower than the rear, connect the dots with a line (driveshaft) and see what happens to the relationship between the pinion and driveshaft (pinion angle). If you're thinking about stock mounts in a full body car, use the 2 degree trans down line to get close to what it likely actually is.

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#1820359 - 05/06/15 03:26 PM Re: Pinion angle again [Re: DoctorDiff]
MR_P_BODY Offline
Master

Registered: 06/13/03
Posts: 50630
Loc: Romeo MI
While I hate to get into these discussions about pinion angle
I do it both ways... but if I build the chassis and set the
engine/trans in it I go through a pretty decent set up.. I use
a laser that mounts into the #5 main(the laser has been trued to
the mounting block in my lathe) and I point the engine/trans dead
on to the pinion center line.. once the build is done I roll the
pinion to get the pinion angle I want.. so basically I use the trans
but when I check it from then on I use the drive shaft as reference
wave
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W-9 8.94 @ 151 NOW ON E-85
Mike "Raff"...(180)Watching over us
CAR IS FOR SALE

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#1820363 - 05/06/15 03:37 PM Re: Pinion angle again [Re: MR_P_BODY]
CMcAllister Offline
top fuel

Registered: 12/30/05
Posts: 2164
Loc: Fulton County, PA
Originally Posted By MR_P_BODY
While I hate to get into these discussions about pinion angle
I do it both ways... but if I build the chassis and set the
engine/trans in it I go through a pretty decent set up.. I use
a laser that mounts into the #5 main(the laser has been trued to
the mounting block in my lathe) and I point the engine/trans dead
on to the pinion center line.. once the build is done I roll the
pinion to get the pinion angle I want.. so basically I use the trans
but when I check it from then on I use the drive shaft as reference
wave


Perfect. If you built the car and know how it is set up, it is a simple matter to put the rear at ride height, set the angle, tighten the jams and forget about it. Everything else was taken care of when it was built.

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#1820364 - 05/06/15 03:38 PM Re: Pinion angle again [Re: MR_P_BODY]
sixpackgut Offline
Drag Week Mod Champion

Registered: 06/08/03
Posts: 9052
Loc: Charleston
Monte beats dead horse meat. lol

https://youtu.be/UPw-3e_pzqU


Edited by sixpackgut (05/06/15 03:44 PM)
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#1820379 - 05/06/15 03:52 PM Re: Pinion angle again [Re: sixpackgut]
DusterDave Offline
top fuel

Registered: 07/10/10
Posts: 1822
Loc: Tampa
Originally Posted By sixpackgut
Monte beats dead horse meat. lol

https://youtu.be/UPw-3e_pzqU

laugh2
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#1820402 - 05/06/15 04:27 PM Re: Pinion angle again [Re: Monte_Smith]
Quicktree Offline
I Win

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 32373
Originally Posted By Monte_Smith
Say what?.......sure you did and I quote "for example, if the front joint is lower than rear joint, and the transmission slopes 5 degrees downward toward the rear and the pinion slopes 2 degrees upward toward the front"



If the front joint is lower, the driveshaft is most assuredly running UPHILL........if the pinion is ALSO pointing UP and these two rising lines meet, they form a point at the top correct?.......and you are telling me that is not POSITIVE pinion angle..........okie dokie then.

PINION ANGLE.....one more time PINION ANGLE is the relationship from pinion to driveshaft and nothing else. If the angle is like a teepee that's positive, if it's like a V that's negative

Quotes from Hot Rod Network...."Pinion angle simply refers to the angle of the differential’s pinion in relation to the driveshaft. But ask 10 guys about optimal pinion angle and a lively debate will ensue. To get a range of opinions, we spoke to several well-known and respected chassis builders about pinion angles"

"Pro Stock chassis builder Jerry Bickel assures us, “there is no mystery to pinion angle.” Setting the pinion angle is the final step in driveline alignment. The goal is to create a straight line from the back of the crankshaft through the transmission, driveshaft, and the pinion of the differential—under load. Due to the tendency of the pinion to rise under load, some angle must be present at rest".






positive in relation to what? the ground, the car or what? work

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#1820408 - 05/06/15 04:34 PM Re: Pinion angle again [Re: sixpackgut]
Quicktree Offline
I Win

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 32373
Originally Posted By sixpackgut
Monte beats dead horse meat. lol

https://youtu.be/UPw-3e_pzqU
sixpackgut beats his own meat laugh2 laugh2

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#1820426 - 05/06/15 04:47 PM Re: Pinion angle again [Re: Quicktree]
MR_P_BODY Offline
Master

Registered: 06/13/03
Posts: 50630
Loc: Romeo MI
The ground never comes into play when talking pinion angle
wave
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W-9 8.94 @ 151 NOW ON E-85
Mike "Raff"...(180)Watching over us
CAR IS FOR SALE

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