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#1822873 - 05/09/15 05:22 PM Re: Pinion angle again [Re: RV2]
383man Offline
Too Many Posts

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 26722
Loc: Balt. Md
When you look at the pic Monte posted it makes me realize to a point you are all right. I was taught the trans and pinion to be on paralell lines under power but I also agree like on 4wd trucks when the height of the trans and pinion are alot different you wont be able to use the parelell line setup some times. As I say I was taught to have the trans and pinion basically on the same parelell centerlines but not the same line. But that was also for basically stock body cars. I know if I was setting up a vehicle where the trans is alot higher then the diff you may not be able to make the paralell line setup work at all so you have to use common sense and set the u-joints angles as best that can be for the setup. Many times and this happens alot on race cars where you may have to move away some from the therory that we learnt and just use common sense. And also how ever you set it up if you have a vibration you know you have to change it and make it right. Myself I agree with most of what I have read on here as like Monte said with race cars you have to use what works best. Thats also the reason I always check the height of the trans and diff centerlines and draw a pic just so I can kinda see what I want to setup and if it makes sense on that combo.

OK no more fighting as we have to find something else to debate about. Ron


Edited by 383man (05/09/15 11:30 PM)
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#1822892 - 05/09/15 05:43 PM Re: Pinion angle again [Re: 383man]
justinp61 Offline
master

Registered: 10/01/03
Posts: 9554
Loc: W. Kentucky
Originally Posted By 383man

OK no more fighting as we have to find something else to debate about. Ron


The 8 3/4 vs 9" thread is still going strong. catfight

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#1822895 - 05/09/15 05:48 PM Re: Pinion angle again [Re: justinp61]
MR_P_BODY Offline
Master

Registered: 06/13/03
Posts: 50760
Loc: Romeo MI
Originally Posted By justinp61
Originally Posted By 383man

OK no more fighting as we have to find something else to debate about. Ron


The 8 3/4 vs 9" thread is still going strong. catfight


Not for me any more
wave
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#1822947 - 05/09/15 07:10 PM Re: Pinion angle again [Re: 383man]
DoctorDiff Offline
master

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 7820
Loc: Polson, MT
Severe U-joint angles caused by a short wheel base and a lifted suspension can often be remedied by installing a CV joint on the transmisson end of the driveshaft, then pointing the pinion directly at the transmission/transfer case. This is the reason most modern 4 x 4 trucks use a CV joint on the front. A TWO-JOINT driveshaft is not designed to work with this configuration, however.

Most drag or street car suspensions can be adjusted so the pinion becomes parallel with the transmission when the vehicle is under power because these types of cars don't exhibit severe U-joint angles.


Edited by DoctorDiff (05/09/15 07:13 PM)
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#1823099 - 05/09/15 10:24 PM Re: Pinion angle again [Re: RV2]
Evil Spirit Offline
master

Registered: 01/02/05
Posts: 3688
Loc: Newport, Mi
This commercial somehow seems to apply to some of the setting methods and results mentioned here. "It doesn't matter, any angle".


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKqJjTIZgO8







Edited by Evil Spirit (05/10/15 12:47 PM)
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#1823233 - 05/10/15 07:31 AM Re: Pinion angle again [Re: Monte_Smith]
MattW Offline
master

Registered: 06/02/05
Posts: 2600
Loc: Ontario Canada
Month can you make another sketch of what the pinion angle looks like at rest and what it should look like under power?
I've just lost 10 minutes of my life reading this and I'm still no further ahead. Lol
Caltracks A body stock trans Location.
A picture, drawing would be easier to understand than explaining it.
THX. Matt

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#1823253 - 05/10/15 08:22 AM Re: Pinion angle again [Re: MattW]
Quicktree Offline
I Win

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 32389
Originally Posted By MattW
Month can you make another sketch of what the pinion angle looks like at rest and what it should look like under power?
I've just lost 10 minutes of my life reading this and I'm still no further ahead. Lol
Caltracks A body stock trans Location.
A picture, drawing would be easier to understand than explaining it.
THX. Matt
Matt I am not trying to convince you like Monte says, but Calvert (the people you designed and makes Caltracks) say to set the angles parallel. now you can do what you want, just keep that in mind. I know Monte says they don't know what they are doing so you decide.

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#1823269 - 05/10/15 08:37 AM Re: Pinion angle again [Re: Monte_Smith]
Jerry Kathe Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 03/03/12
Posts: 220
Originally Posted By Monte_Smith
Originally Posted By Jerry Kathe
Monte…..your jeep has a CV shaft in it….do you understand what this is or how it works? My guess is no or you wouldn't have used this to push your belief.

Seriously, you think I don't know what a CV joint is??? And NO, my CJ5 does NOT have CV joints and here is a couple pics to prove it. This is stone stock, factory suspension from AMC. Single flanges and a single trunion joint, both front and rear. Didn't bother to pull skid plate to show joint at transfer case, but it's the same as rear, all single trunion. Nor does my lifted early 80s Power Wagon have CV joints. Maybe it is just my camera angle, but these seem to be pretty damn far from parallel planes..........LOL!!!


I have had this JEEP a LONG time and have never put the first joint in it myself.

You guys are so obsessed with equal angles to keep the shaft from speeding and slowing, that you overlook one other important fact and that is which setup is easier to turn and eats less power. Less angles, eat less power. Now unfortunately, straight at one end and an angle at the other DOES vary joint speed, that I will NOT argue.......BUT obviously it is NOT a big deal as there are millions of vehicles on the road and track, this very same way. So the question is which way transfers more POWER. As with anything else, it is all about leverage. More angles, less leverage.

Monte


Your correct.....it does not have a CV joint shaft. The slip yoke between the joints was considered enough of a relief to handicap the problem, all this did was eat away at the slip yoke and splines - all new engineered vehicles now incorporate the various configurations of CV joints along with the slip joints. Evidently this is a fairly older Jeep. And....yes the slip joint is primarily to absorb the arc travel between the suspension and fixed components, which it does well.

Rethink your comment on the angle and absorption of power.....you make one end straight and use the other end to articulate the entire working angle what did you accomplish with reducing the working angle?....I'll get that one for you; NOTHING.

and finally.....you post this picture of your personal vehicles drive shaft with the joints clearly out of phase....don't recognize it prior to posting and then still don't recognize this when pointed out by another member until in depth explanation is provided. This speaks volume on your technical education with drive line geometry.....Time to tap out on this deal......good luck buddy.

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#1823317 - 05/10/15 09:41 AM Re: Pinion angle again [Re: Quicktree]
MattW Offline
master

Registered: 06/02/05
Posts: 2600
Loc: Ontario Canada
Originally Posted By Quicktree
Originally Posted By MattW
Month can you make another sketch of what the pinion angle looks like at rest and what it should look like under power?
I've just lost 10 minutes of my life reading this and I'm still no further ahead. Lol
Caltracks A body stock trans Location.
A picture, drawing would be easier to understand than explaining it.
THX. Matt
Matt I am not trying to convince you like Monte says, but Calvert (the people you designed and makes Caltracks) say to set the angles parallel. now you can do what you want, just keep that in mind. I know Monte says they don't know what they are doing so you decide.


No I'm just asking for a drawing.
Take one point and you have 360 degrees of possibilities.
Plus 3 degrees, minus 3 degrees, pinion up, pinion down it's all on where you take your measurements from.
Some people have a hard time explain thing in text. Some people have a hard time understanding the text being explained. A nice simple drawing for the simple minded person like myself take all the confusion out of it.
Matt

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#1823346 - 05/10/15 10:22 AM Re: Pinion angle again [Re: justinp61]
Thumperdart Offline


Registered: 07/12/04
Posts: 18740
Loc: State of confusion
Originally Posted By justinp61
Originally Posted By 383man

OK no more fighting as we have to find something else to debate about. Ron


The 8 3/4 vs 9" thread is still going strong. catfight



Yep, just like my 8 3/4 has been.......for YEARS. LOL!
_________________________
72 Dart 470 n/a BB stroker street car `THUMPER`...Check me out on FB for videos and lots of carb pics......760-900-3895.....

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#1823368 - 05/10/15 10:54 AM Re: Pinion angle again [Re: RV2]
Quicktree Offline
I Win

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 32389
Matt I do my measurements off the pad where the pinion snubber mounted if the rear has one if not some flat on the same angle as the yoke and the same on the tranny. the question is whether you set it of the tranny or the drive shaft.I have done both and both worked, I just choose to parallel them these days. it just makes more sense imo. find zero point if you choose the parallel choice. if the tranny is 3 down the rear needs to be 3 up to find 0 then roll down how ever many degrees you want it set. hope that helps.

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#1823371 - 05/10/15 10:59 AM Re: Pinion angle again [Re: Thumperdart]
Quicktree Offline
I Win

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 32389
Originally Posted By Thumperdart
Originally Posted By justinp61
Originally Posted By 383man

OK no more fighting as we have to find something else to debate about. Ron


The 8 3/4 vs 9" thread is still going strong. catfight



Yep, just like my 8 3/4 has been.......for YEARS. LOL!
yea you and your 3 street passes per year on street tires. it should last forever.

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#1823383 - 05/10/15 11:14 AM Re: Pinion angle again [Re: Quicktree]
Thumperdart Offline


Registered: 07/12/04
Posts: 18740
Loc: State of confusion
Originally Posted By Quicktree
Originally Posted By Thumperdart
Originally Posted By justinp61
Originally Posted By 383man

OK no more fighting as we have to find something else to debate about. Ron


The 8 3/4 vs 9" thread is still going strong. catfight



Yep, just like my 8 3/4 has been.......for YEARS. LOL!
yea you and your 3 street passes per year on street tires. it should last forever.




Make that four.........just went on a beer and weed run...........
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72 Dart 470 n/a BB stroker street car `THUMPER`...Check me out on FB for videos and lots of carb pics......760-900-3895.....

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#1823451 - 05/10/15 12:37 PM Re: Pinion angle again [Re: Thumperdart]
Quicktree Offline
I Win

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 32389
[/quote]


Yep, just like my 8 3/4 has been.......for YEARS. LOL! [/quote]yea you and your 3 street passes per year on street tires. it should last forever. [/quote]



Make that four.........just went on a beer and weed run........... [/quote]that will definitely help your employment resume laugh2

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#1823494 - 05/10/15 01:52 PM Re: Pinion angle again [Re: RV2]
gregsdart Offline
master

Registered: 01/21/03
Posts: 8254
Loc: Frostbitefalls (Rocky&Bullwink...
Some of the carnage when the rear center section broke loose from the axle tubes and twisted up about twenty degrees. It vibrated very bad, and tore the second gear splines out of the planetary as well. That is where all the aluminum came from.
Draw your own conclusions as to why this happened.


Attachments
Dart pics + others 082.jpg

Dart pics + others 084.jpg


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Educated at SHK U
Measure with yardstick
mark with chalk
cut with torch!



528 cubic inch alky injected 440-1 wedge, 3055 race weight.
8.779 at 153.16 mph. 1.289 60 ft. density altitude 1617 feet. Best 60 ft 1.24

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#1823521 - 05/10/15 02:50 PM Re: Pinion angle again [Re: RV2]
Quicktree Offline
I Win

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 32389
so Greg, how do you set your angle now?

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#1823667 - 05/10/15 07:00 PM Re: Pinion angle again [Re: RV2]
gregsdart Offline
master

Registered: 01/21/03
Posts: 8254
Loc: Frostbitefalls (Rocky&Bullwink...
With welded tubes up
_________________________
GREG
Educated at SHK U
Measure with yardstick
mark with chalk
cut with torch!



528 cubic inch alky injected 440-1 wedge, 3055 race weight.
8.779 at 153.16 mph. 1.289 60 ft. density altitude 1617 feet. Best 60 ft 1.24

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#1823673 - 05/10/15 07:05 PM Re: Pinion angle again [Re: Jerry Kathe]
Sport440 Offline
master

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 6570
Loc: Canton, Ohio
Originally Posted By Jerry Kathe
Originally Posted By Monte_Smith
[quote=Jerry Kathe]Monte…..your jeep has a CV shaft in it….do you understand what this is or how it works? My guess is no or you wouldn't have used this to push your belief.

Seriously, you think I don't know what a CV joint is??? And NO, my CJ5 does NOT have CV joints and here is a couple pics to prove it. This is stone stock, factory suspension from AMC. Single flanges and a single trunion joint, both front and rear. Didn't bother to pull skid plate to show joint at transfer case, but it's the same as rear, all single trunion. Nor does my lifted early 80s Power Wagon have CV joints. Maybe it is just my camera angle, but these seem to be pretty damn far from parallel planes..........LOL!!!


I have had this JEEP a LONG time and have never put the first joint in it myself.

You guys are so obsessed with equal angles to keep the shaft from speeding and slowing, that you overlook one other important fact and that is which setup is easier to turn and eats less power.





Now unfortunately, straight at one end and an angle at the other DOES vary joint speed, that I will NOT argue.......

Sport, Its Great to see you finally understand That. Thumbs UP.






" So the question is which way transfers more POWER. As with anything else, it is all about leverage. More angles, less leverage."
Monte


So This, Is your Total base under standing of Pinion angle, LESS ANGLES.?? That you Base All your answers on. OK


While its True, We want Less angles, Like, you would do if you were to build a race With a Straight driveline. You Don't ever have that in a Production car. You have two different planes typically. In That scenario That 2nd Angle is Needed and Desired because of the way the u-joints work.


You Absolutely in that Case don't just set the pinion Angle up so that it Points directly at the trans thereby eliminating 1 of 2 angles.

If you do, it does Rob More Power and Hurt Parts more. You NEED that Second angle When the Driveline is not Built so it becomes a Straight line Under power.

I see how Your Base understanding of pinion angle has flawed your judgment and led you astray on pinion angle when the drive line isn't built in a straight line.

I hope this makes sense now for you. Sure would be nice to have you on our side of the Pinion angle Argument. LOL



Edited by Sport440 (05/10/15 09:20 PM)
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#1823962 - 05/11/15 01:03 AM Re: Pinion angle again [Re: RV2]
Evil Spirit Offline
master

Registered: 01/02/05
Posts: 3688
Loc: Newport, Mi
The Russians have their road rage videos - we have our pinion angle chat group sessions. One is alcohol fueled arguments showcasing poor reasoning and judgment, the other is about car crashes.
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#1823971 - 05/11/15 01:55 AM Re: Pinion angle again [Re: Evil Spirit]
Monte_Smith Offline
master

Registered: 11/10/04
Posts: 6890
Loc: North Alabama
Originally Posted By Evil Spirit
The Russians have their road rage videos - we have our pinion angle chat group sessions. One is alcohol fueled arguments showcasing poor reasoning and judgment, the other is about car crashes.
I don't drink, nor have poor reasoning, so I assume you are referring to yourself. That's OK, you will catch on one of these days. Hang in there.

And Jerry, that's the best you got to prove my "understanding"...........is that I didn't notice the shaft was out of phase..........LOL.....OK, big guy. The next time will make twice I have ever looked at the shaft in the Jeep. I just stuck my camera under there and took a shot. Phase was the last thing I was concerned about, as we were talking about angles..........but whatever makes you feel better. Carry on. We will overlook the fact that you point blank told me, that the Jeep had CV joints. Seems YOU made a mistake as well. How does that rank YOUR understanding

NOT gonna happen Sport.........but tell you what IS gonna happen. Is that I am done with this thread and that I will continue doing it the way I have for 35+ years with good results. And who was saying anything about production cars.........we were talking about RACE CARS and about setting pinion angle, not about making your mush mobile ride down the road smooth as glass and the joints last 100k miles.

You guys are trying your best to spin EVERY word and apply it to ALL situations...........all true signs of "grasping" in an attempt to prove your point...........carry on........

Monte


Edited by Monte_Smith (05/11/15 02:08 AM)

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