Help with engine running very rich
#1815763
04/30/15 08:20 PM
04/30/15 08:20 PM
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73cuda340
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I have a Ray Barton 528 hemi in my cuda and the car runs so rich to the point that where my eyes burn real bad if I stand next to the car for more than a minute. The motor has less than an hour of run time since I bought it. It has two edelbrock performer 600 cfm carburetors and they were setup when the car was dyno tuned. Brand new msd distributor with 6al box and edelbrock performer mechanical fuel pump. Fuel pressure is 7-7.5 psi. The car ran fine last fall and I went to start it up to get it ready for the summer and it is running like absolute garbage now. My first thought was the gas went bad over the winter so I drained the whole system and filled it up with fresh gas with no luck. I have to give it gas to keep it running and it acts like it is loading up when I rev it. There aren't any vacuum leaks anywhere that I can find. Is it possible that the fuel pressure is too high and pushing past the needle and seat and just dumping into the motor? This is already the 3rd fuel pump that I had to put on this motor as the first two were bad right out of the box and were putting out 9 psi and flooding the motor. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
1973 Cuda 528 all aluminum Hemi, 4 speed, 3.23 Sure-Grip,
(JA5) Silver Frost Metallic
1973 Challenger Rallye 340
1985 W150 Power Ram prospector
1986 Camaro IROC-Z 305 tpi
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Re: Help with engine running very rich
[Re: ademon]
#1815773
04/30/15 08:32 PM
04/30/15 08:32 PM
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73cuda340
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Mechanical Edelbrock performer. The description for the pump says it makes 6 psi max and the first two made 9 and the last time I ran the car it was at 6 but now it is a little over 7.
1973 Cuda 528 all aluminum Hemi, 4 speed, 3.23 Sure-Grip,
(JA5) Silver Frost Metallic
1973 Challenger Rallye 340
1985 W150 Power Ram prospector
1986 Camaro IROC-Z 305 tpi
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Re: Help with engine running very rich
[Re: 73cuda340]
#1815790
04/30/15 08:51 PM
04/30/15 08:51 PM
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http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive/mc/carburetors/pdf/carb_owners_manual.pdfPage 5 gives fuel pressure specs, says to set it at 5.5 psi at idle. Being a dual quad setup you probably will need more volume but not more pressure than a single setup. I've also seen the brass float get pinhole leaks over time and start sinking. Make sure your needle and seats are not leaking by.
They say there are no such thing as a stupid question. They say there is always the exception that proves the rule. Don't be the exception.
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Re: Help with engine running very rich
[Re: 73cuda340]
#1815842
04/30/15 09:59 PM
04/30/15 09:59 PM
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 587 IL . usa
cjs69mope
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First i would get a simple spark tester that is adjustable and can read the kv output of the the spark i have one in my tool box . MSD should jump a blue 1 inch long spark no problem . 45kv no less. second you could take a flash light and look into the throtle at the main boosters to see if it is dumping fuel there should be no droplets coming from the boosters under say 2800-3000 rpm . If you see the boosters dribble fuel at idle then floats set to high or fuel pressure to high. third 7 psi is not that high but i would follow the Edelbrock recommendations. Do you have a fuel pressure Regulator? IF no i would get one! and set the pressure where you want it. Also you can use a timeing light to see fuel spray coming from the booster in the carb throat while increasing the RPMs. Also could the timing have changed ? that motor prob likes 18 to 20 deg initial at say 1000 rpm and 34 total all in at 2000-2200 rpm. I would start with this .
1969 Dodge Charger
1969 Dodge Superbee
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Re: Help with engine running very rich
[Re: cjs69mope]
#1815889
04/30/15 10:55 PM
04/30/15 10:55 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 42,714 Spokane Washington
ScottSmith_Harms
Mr Wizzard
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Mr Wizzard
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Pretty much what's been said above: #1. Fuel pressure (if accurate) is too high, 6-6.5 max. #2. Float level too off, Carters/Edelbrocks need to be set right, also look for a sunk float, even brand new ones sometimes have tiny pinholes, also bad gas can easily clog a needle & seat open overfilling the bowl. #3. Vacuum leak somewhere, Hemi's like to suck intake gaskets, hard to find but very common.
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Re: Help with engine running very rich
[Re: ScottSmith_Harms]
#1815913
04/30/15 11:28 PM
04/30/15 11:28 PM
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73cuda340
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The gauge is not liquid filled, however I don't have another gauge to compare it to for accuracy. I didn't install a fuel pressure regulator because when I called edelbrock about the problem with my first two pumps, I was told that I didn't need a regulator with that pump and that there was no way to adjust the pressure of the pump. I didn't install a regulator after that either because I figured it would only be masking the problem of the pumps being that they are only supposed to make 6 psi max and not 9. I will try to get a helper tomorrow to keep it running so that I can look down the carburetor and see whats going on.
1973 Cuda 528 all aluminum Hemi, 4 speed, 3.23 Sure-Grip,
(JA5) Silver Frost Metallic
1973 Challenger Rallye 340
1985 W150 Power Ram prospector
1986 Camaro IROC-Z 305 tpi
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Re: Help with engine running very rich
[Re: 73cuda340]
#1815915
04/30/15 11:31 PM
04/30/15 11:31 PM
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73cuda340
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I don't have a tester to measure the output of the spark, but when I pulled a plug and cranked the motor over I had very strong spark.
1973 Cuda 528 all aluminum Hemi, 4 speed, 3.23 Sure-Grip,
(JA5) Silver Frost Metallic
1973 Challenger Rallye 340
1985 W150 Power Ram prospector
1986 Camaro IROC-Z 305 tpi
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Re: Help with engine running very rich
[Re: 73cuda340]
#1815937
04/30/15 11:51 PM
04/30/15 11:51 PM
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zrxkawboy
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I'm betting on a float or needle & seat issue.
It's Swifty! Swifty, you toad sucker!
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Re: Help with engine running very rich
[Re: 73cuda340]
#1816025
05/01/15 01:28 AM
05/01/15 01:28 AM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,869 Oregon
hooziewhatsit
master
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master
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Are the rods being pulled down at idle? They should be.
open the star screw (two of them) on top of each carb, and rotate them a bit to see the enrichment rods.
If you ever find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.
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Re: Help with engine running very rich
[Re: hooziewhatsit]
#1816148
05/01/15 09:42 AM
05/01/15 09:42 AM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312 Cincinnati, Ohio
Challenger 1
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Are the rods being pulled down at idle? They should be.
open the star screw (two of them) on top of each carb, and rotate them a bit to see the enrichment rods.
^^^^^^^^ This too.
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Re: Help with engine running very rich
[Re: ScottSmith_Harms]
#1816666
05/01/15 09:05 PM
05/01/15 09:05 PM
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73cuda340
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The metering rods are down during idle as far as I can tell and I took a look down the carburetor while it was running and gas was pouring out of the boosters so definitely either the needle and seat or fuel pressure. . Im going to pick up a regulator tomorrow and try that next.
1973 Cuda 528 all aluminum Hemi, 4 speed, 3.23 Sure-Grip,
(JA5) Silver Frost Metallic
1973 Challenger Rallye 340
1985 W150 Power Ram prospector
1986 Camaro IROC-Z 305 tpi
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Re: Help with engine running very rich
[Re: 73cuda340]
#1816738
05/01/15 10:57 PM
05/01/15 10:57 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312 Cincinnati, Ohio
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The metering rods are down during idle as far as I can tell and I took a look down the carburetor while it was running and gas was pouring out of the boosters so definitely either the needle and seat or fuel pressure. . Im going to pick up a regulator tomorrow and try that next. Did you loosen the screw and slide the cover off to the side so you could see the rods with the motor idling? Rev it just a bit and watch them jump up? I have been using 600 like yours since like 1985. Been on every 340 I ever had at one point or another. I have tuned it quite a lot since I trailer it on vacations all over the country including driving it to the top of Pikes Pike twice. They got to be lean to make up that mountain. Anyway just recently put a temporary fuel gauge on my mechanical fuel pump equipped 340 and had 6-8 PSI depending on RPM and throttle position. My car also has the hemi vapor separator mounted on the fuel pump connected to a factory 1/4" steel return line. It has a 3/8" suction line for the fuel pump. It was the first time I checked fuel pressure under load with the hemi VS/return line and I had plenty of pressure even under WOT. Been driving with this fuel setup for 10 years and 25K miles since 2007 on my most recent 340 with my trusty 1405 600 carb.. IMO 7-7.5 psi fuel pressure is not your problem. What do the spark plugs look like? Get used to pulling them out, you need to keep track of them.
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Re: Help with engine running very rich
[Re: AndyF]
#1817970
05/03/15 09:26 PM
05/03/15 09:26 PM
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73cuda340
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The Edelbrock carbs will get "eaten up" by the ethanol content in pump gas if they are allowed to sit for a long period of time. If you pull the tops off of the carbs you'll most likely find some white slime in the bowls. That slime gets into the fuel passages and blocks things up. My guess is that you're actually running lean not rich due to a blocked passage. People think the stinky idle is rich but typically it is dead lean and misfiring. Ok, I will pull the top of the carbs tonight before I buy the regulator. Definitely running rich and not lean though with the amount of gas that was dumping into the motor.
1973 Cuda 528 all aluminum Hemi, 4 speed, 3.23 Sure-Grip,
(JA5) Silver Frost Metallic
1973 Challenger Rallye 340
1985 W150 Power Ram prospector
1986 Camaro IROC-Z 305 tpi
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Re: Help with engine running very rich
[Re: AndyF]
#1818936
05/04/15 11:19 PM
05/04/15 11:19 PM
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73cuda340
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I pulled the tops of both carbs off and it was clean inside. No white slime or residue from the ethanol. Pulled out the needle and seats and they were clean too. I cleaned everything up with carb cleaner, rechecked the float adjustment and put everything back together and it still wont idle by itself and it is still leaking gas out of the boosters. If I give it just a little gas it will stay running, but it still has very strong fumes from the exhaust that will burn your eyes even after a few seconds of it running. I'm ordering the fuel pressure regulator tonight and I'm really hoping that this will be the end to the problem. I appreciate all the help so far.
1973 Cuda 528 all aluminum Hemi, 4 speed, 3.23 Sure-Grip,
(JA5) Silver Frost Metallic
1973 Challenger Rallye 340
1985 W150 Power Ram prospector
1986 Camaro IROC-Z 305 tpi
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Re: Help with engine running very rich
[Re: 73cuda340]
#1818988
05/04/15 11:55 PM
05/04/15 11:55 PM
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Did you verify the floats were not leaky? If so, how?
They say there are no such thing as a stupid question. They say there is always the exception that proves the rule. Don't be the exception.
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Re: Help with engine running very rich
[Re: Supercuda]
#1819030
05/05/15 12:23 AM
05/05/15 12:23 AM
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73cuda340
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Did you verify the floats were not leaky? If so, how? They were floating on the gas that was in the bowls and when I pulled them out they were not full of gas.
1973 Cuda 528 all aluminum Hemi, 4 speed, 3.23 Sure-Grip,
(JA5) Silver Frost Metallic
1973 Challenger Rallye 340
1985 W150 Power Ram prospector
1986 Camaro IROC-Z 305 tpi
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Re: Help with engine running very rich
[Re: 73cuda340]
#1819053
05/05/15 12:48 AM
05/05/15 12:48 AM
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Did you shake them and listen for slosh? Doesn't take much to keep the needles from seating. Had it happen twice to me over the years. First time I resoldered the seam, couple years later I just replaced them.
They say there are no such thing as a stupid question. They say there is always the exception that proves the rule. Don't be the exception.
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Re: Help with engine running very rich
[Re: Supercuda]
#1819086
05/05/15 01:19 AM
05/05/15 01:19 AM
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73cuda340
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Did you shake them and listen for slosh? Doesn't take much to keep the needles from seating. Had it happen twice to me over the years. First time I resoldered the seam, couple years later I just replaced them. I didn't shake them, but I did take them off to clean the needle and seats and I couldn't hear anything moving around and they were very light so I'm almost positive that they are still good.
1973 Cuda 528 all aluminum Hemi, 4 speed, 3.23 Sure-Grip,
(JA5) Silver Frost Metallic
1973 Challenger Rallye 340
1985 W150 Power Ram prospector
1986 Camaro IROC-Z 305 tpi
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Re: Help with engine running very rich
[Re: 73cuda340]
#1825300
05/12/15 11:27 PM
05/12/15 11:27 PM
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73cuda340
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I got the fuel pressure regulator installed and it does seem to run a little better and nowhere near as rich, however the problem is still there and I cant get the car to idle. I have the regulator set to 6 psi. I pulled out all the idle mixture screws and sprayed some carb cleaner in there and into the air bleeds as well. Does this sound like an idle circuit problem? I still cant get the car to idle by itself to see if everything else is okay.
1973 Cuda 528 all aluminum Hemi, 4 speed, 3.23 Sure-Grip,
(JA5) Silver Frost Metallic
1973 Challenger Rallye 340
1985 W150 Power Ram prospector
1986 Camaro IROC-Z 305 tpi
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Re: Help with engine running very rich
[Re: 73cuda340]
#1826843
05/14/15 08:36 PM
05/14/15 08:36 PM
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73cuda340
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The only way that I can get the car to idle is if I turn the idle up to around 1500-2000 rpm; I'm not sure as My car doesn't have a tach. The vacuum was at 5 in/hg and when I looked at the metering rods, they appeared to be bouncing up and down a little bit. Im not sure if the vacuum is that low or the metering rods are bouncing slightly because of the idle being so high.
1973 Cuda 528 all aluminum Hemi, 4 speed, 3.23 Sure-Grip,
(JA5) Silver Frost Metallic
1973 Challenger Rallye 340
1985 W150 Power Ram prospector
1986 Camaro IROC-Z 305 tpi
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Re: Help with engine running very rich
[Re: 70Duster440]
#1829696
05/18/15 11:39 PM
05/18/15 11:39 PM
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73cuda340
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I took the whole carburetor apart again, cleaned everything again, lowered the floats a little more, and dropped the fuel pressure down to 5 psi and the car still will not idle. It is still running rich too. It only wants to idle at roughly 1500 rpm. I can sill see gas coming out of the boosters, but I believe the only reason now is because of how high the idle is. I am pretty much at a loss of what to do at this point.
Last edited by 73cuda340; 05/19/15 08:00 PM.
1973 Cuda 528 all aluminum Hemi, 4 speed, 3.23 Sure-Grip,
(JA5) Silver Frost Metallic
1973 Challenger Rallye 340
1985 W150 Power Ram prospector
1986 Camaro IROC-Z 305 tpi
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Re: Help with engine running very rich
[Re: 70Duster440]
#1830272
05/19/15 07:59 PM
05/19/15 07:59 PM
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73cuda340
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You raised the float? That would make the problem worse. If you lower the float it will shut the fuel off at lower level in the bowl. My bad, just a typing mistake. I lowered the float.
1973 Cuda 528 all aluminum Hemi, 4 speed, 3.23 Sure-Grip,
(JA5) Silver Frost Metallic
1973 Challenger Rallye 340
1985 W150 Power Ram prospector
1986 Camaro IROC-Z 305 tpi
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Re: Help with engine running very rich
[Re: 73cuda340]
#1831053
05/20/15 08:27 PM
05/20/15 08:27 PM
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73cuda340
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Does anybody here have a hemi, preferably 528, and know an average vacuum reading at idle?
1973 Cuda 528 all aluminum Hemi, 4 speed, 3.23 Sure-Grip,
(JA5) Silver Frost Metallic
1973 Challenger Rallye 340
1985 W150 Power Ram prospector
1986 Camaro IROC-Z 305 tpi
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Re: Help with engine running very rich
[Re: 73cuda340]
#1836812
05/29/15 06:00 PM
05/29/15 06:00 PM
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Joined: Jun 2007
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73cuda340
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Is there a set adjustment as to how far the primary throttle blades should be open at idle?
1973 Cuda 528 all aluminum Hemi, 4 speed, 3.23 Sure-Grip,
(JA5) Silver Frost Metallic
1973 Challenger Rallye 340
1985 W150 Power Ram prospector
1986 Camaro IROC-Z 305 tpi
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