Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 2 of 2 1 2
Re: Crank scrapers - HP increases? [Re: Locomotion] #180989
01/03/09 08:39 PM
01/03/09 08:39 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,943
Melbourne.....Oz-land
Moparmal Offline OP
master
Moparmal  Offline OP
master

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,943
Melbourne.....Oz-land
Myron - so are you saying I should ditch my MP windage tray and buy one of the Ishihara crank scrapers?

Or modify the windage tray and run both?


67 RO23 clone with 6.1 SRT Hemi and dual quads. Soon to have Drag Pak induction and Throttle body.
Re: Crank scrapers - HP increases? [Re: Moparmal] #180990
01/03/09 08:56 PM
01/03/09 08:56 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,892
Florida
Locomotion Offline
master
Locomotion  Offline
master

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,892
Florida
My humble opinion is to use a scraper with a deep sump pan on a small block. I have a Milodon 8 qt. pan, dual-sided scraper and run 5 qts. I've always had a little pressure fluctuation with a stock pump, but no sign of problems. 6 qts. shouldn't hurt.

Re: Crank scrapers - HP increases? [Re: Locomotion] #180991
01/03/09 09:11 PM
01/03/09 09:11 PM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 411
Portersville, Pa
1badx Offline
mopar
1badx  Offline
mopar

Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 411
Portersville, Pa
Actually,the tray I have in my old 440 is from Hamburgers. I guess my real question is why wouldn't I use a windage tray with a deep sump like you mentioned? I was under the impression that at higher rpm's the oil wraps around the crank creating more rotating mass/weight and that the tray prevents this (to a point)

Re: Crank scrapers - HP increases? [Re: 1badx] #180992
01/03/09 09:48 PM
01/03/09 09:48 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,910
Eighty Four, PA
B G Racing Offline
master
B G Racing  Offline
master

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,910
Eighty Four, PA
The main function of the tray and the one way screens is to keep the oil in the sump from being drawn to the rotating mass.There is always oil in suspension around the rotating mass,as it falls and passes through the tray or screen it thus minimizing the return and suspension of oil in the windage of the rotating mass.A scraper minimizes the area of windage and the suspension of oil it creates and directs it to the sump.It deflects the oil in the same manner as a wind screen on a motorcycle deflects the air from the rider.

Re: Crank scrapers - HP increases? [Re: B G Racing] #180993
01/03/09 09:57 PM
01/03/09 09:57 PM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 411
Portersville, Pa
1badx Offline
mopar
1badx  Offline
mopar

Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 411
Portersville, Pa
BG, Jim Pranis told me to look you up if I needed and parts/advice for my build. This GTX build has been on hold due to the dyno business. Things have slowed down a bit in the last month so I'm at it again.

So what do you recommend for my situation? It's a 446, BME rods, stock stroke, Milodon 10qt, external pump, should be going 7200 through the lights.

Re: Crank scrapers - HP increases? [Re: B G Racing] #180994
01/03/09 10:54 PM
01/03/09 10:54 PM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,097
back in Georgia
dthemi Offline
master
dthemi  Offline
master

Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,097
back in Georgia
Quote:

The main function of the tray and the one way screens is to keep the oil in the sump from being drawn to the rotating mass.There is always oil in suspension around the rotating mass,as it falls and passes through the tray or screen it thus minimizing the return and suspension of oil in the windage of the rotating mass.A scraper minimizes the area of windage and the suspension of oil it creates and directs it to the sump.It deflects the oil in the same manner as a wind screen on a motorcycle deflects the air from the rider.





Nicely worded,straight talk from the farm

All kidding aside, that's absolutely right about the crank grabbing up the oil in the pan. It'll grab it up like toffee in a dough hook. Pressure fluctuation's other than ones caused by too little oil are most often caused from this effect.

Re: Crank scrapers - HP increases? [Re: dthemi] #180995
01/03/09 11:23 PM
01/03/09 11:23 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,943
Melbourne.....Oz-land
Moparmal Offline OP
master
Moparmal  Offline OP
master

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,943
Melbourne.....Oz-land
So its OK to use both scraper and tray? or will this cause some sort of oil vapour starvation?

M

Re: Crank scrapers - HP increases? [Re: Moparmal] #180996
01/03/09 11:32 PM
01/03/09 11:32 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,007
Bend,OR USA
C
Cab_Burge Online work
I Win
Cab_Burge  Online Work
I Win
C

Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,007
Bend,OR USA
Quote:

So its OK to use both scraper and tray? or will this cause some sort of oil vapour starvation?

M


I use both on all of my BB mopars, no windage tray on the SB Mopars, just the scraper and added slosh baffles in the pan


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: Crank scrapers - HP increases? [Re: Moparmal] #180997
01/04/09 01:20 AM
01/04/09 01:20 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,064
Arlington, Texas
earlybee Offline
master
earlybee  Offline
master

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,064
Arlington, Texas
Quote:

So not a good idea for a street duty car then?


Thats exactly right on tight clearance scrapers. Pit road and parking lot crusers, street and strip cars need more clearance for oiling the pistons,pins,cam lobes at long low rpm run time.

Re: Crank scrapers - HP increases? [Re: earlybee] #180998
01/04/09 01:52 AM
01/04/09 01:52 AM
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 30,248
Florida STAYcation
dIc dOc Deity ! Offline
The village idiot's idiot
dIc dOc Deity !  Offline
The village idiot's idiot

Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 30,248
Florida STAYcation
Quote:

Quote:

So not a good idea for a street duty car then?


Thats exactly right on tight clearance scrapers. Pit road and parking lot crusers, street and strip cars need more clearance for oiling the pistons,pins,cam lobes at long low rpm run time.




?????

how does a scraper(located on the lower part of the engine) ... negatively affect the oiling at the TOP of the rotating assembly?

Re: Crank scrapers - HP increases? [Re: 1badx] #180999
01/04/09 07:00 AM
01/04/09 07:00 AM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,910
Eighty Four, PA
B G Racing Offline
master
B G Racing  Offline
master

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,910
Eighty Four, PA
Quote:

BG, Jim Pranis told me to look you up if I needed and parts/advice for my build. This GTX build has been on hold due to the dyno business. Things have slowed down a bit in the last month so I'm at it again.

So what do you recommend for my situation? It's a 446, BME rods, stock stroke, Milodon 10qt, external pump, should be going 7200 through the lights.


If your deep pan is baffeled you should be fine.The most I would add is the tray.

Re: Crank scrapers - HP increases? [Re: B G Racing] #181000
01/04/09 09:16 AM
01/04/09 09:16 AM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 411
Portersville, Pa
1badx Offline
mopar
1badx  Offline
mopar

Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 411
Portersville, Pa
Thanks!

Re: Crank scrapers - HP increases? [Re: dIc dOc Deity !] #181001
01/04/09 01:09 PM
01/04/09 01:09 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,406
Kalispell Mt.
H
HotRodDave Offline
I Live Here
HotRodDave  Offline
I Live Here
H

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,406
Kalispell Mt.
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

So not a good idea for a street duty car then?


Thats exactly right on tight clearance scrapers. Pit road and parking lot crusers, street and strip cars need more clearance for oiling the pistons,pins,cam lobes at long low rpm run time.




?????

how does a scraper(located on the lower part of the engine) ... negatively affect the oiling at the TOP of the rotating assembly?




The theory is it removes oil from the air slinging around with the crank, this oily air is what also lubricates the cylinder walls and rod small end because there is no preasurized lube up there. It would take a lot of research dollars to determine how much oil has to remain and how much you can remove. Aparently the factory thought windage trays were usefull in both big and small block engine.

BTW I have a miloden windage try similar to the factory SB one except it has twice as many louvers and is a little thicker.


I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!



Re: Crank scrapers - HP increases? [Re: HotRodDave] #181002
01/04/09 03:38 PM
01/04/09 03:38 PM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,097
back in Georgia
dthemi Offline
master
dthemi  Offline
master

Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,097
back in Georgia
If you could effectively get rid of all the oil from the crank its self the waste oil from the cam and or lifters would oil everything just fine on its own when slung off the crank. When you look at modern high power builds the cam is in a tunnel completely separated from the crank so no oil from the valve train hits the crank. Then every thing you can imagine is done to get the rest off the crank. Even with coated pins they'll still EDM a hole from the rod journal up the beam of the rod to feed the pin a couple drops of oil. Prostockers are still finding better ways to get rid of windage and still finding power from it. I've seen one local prostockers dry sump system pull 21+ vac with no vac pump, that's just the scavenge sections pulling that. They've gotten so good at getting rid of oil, they have to put some back, but they can put right where it's needed. When I look at my own motors and ones way better than mine, they're still primitive by comparison when it comes to oil control. I know it's not for the street, but the manufacturers are doing similar stuff now with dry sumps, sprayers, coatings, and trays/scrapers so why not take as much advantage as you have patience and budget to. For me it's "free" power since it doesn't require stronger parts, more spring, or compression to make. There's a video somewhere that shows a BBC with a clear pan wadding up oil on the crank. I'll post it when I find it.

Re: Crank scrapers - HP increases? [Re: HotRodDave] #181003
01/05/09 12:04 AM
01/05/09 12:04 AM
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 30,248
Florida STAYcation
dIc dOc Deity ! Offline
The village idiot's idiot
dIc dOc Deity !  Offline
The village idiot's idiot

Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 30,248
Florida STAYcation
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

So not a good idea for a street duty car then?


Thats exactly right on tight clearance scrapers. Pit road and parking lot crusers, street and strip cars need more clearance for oiling the pistons,pins,cam lobes at long low rpm run time.




?????

how does a scraper(located on the lower part of the engine) ... negatively affect the oiling at the TOP of the rotating assembly?




The theory is it removes oil from the air slinging around with the crank, this oily air is what also lubricates the cylinder walls and rod small end because there is no preasurized lube up there. It would take a lot of research dollars to determine how much oil has to remain and how much you can remove. Aparently the factory thought windage trays were usefull in both big and small block engine.

BTW I have a miloden windage try similar to the factory SB one except it has twice as many louvers and is a little thicker.




I am not suggesting getting rid of ALL the oil coming off the main and rod areas of the crank ... just on the lower areas.

And as far as the oil coming off the heads, cam and lifters ? ..... I seem to remember a shop doing a test of plumbling all that oil directly with baffles, hoses and a tray ....and the HP savings was worth that effort.

Re: Crank scrapers - HP increases? [Re: dIc dOc Deity !] #181004
01/05/09 09:45 AM
01/05/09 09:45 AM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,910
Eighty Four, PA
B G Racing Offline
master
B G Racing  Offline
master

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,910
Eighty Four, PA
Oil passing from the cam as well as residual oil draining from the heads as well as oil passing from the rod to rod side clearence will be more than enough lube the cylinders and wrist pins. I agree with Darren's thoughts of gaining HP running a tight scraper and cleaning the excessive oil from the rotationg assembly as it passes through the heavy concentration of oil(bottom half of rotation) where it has more chance of picking up more oil that is returning to the pan as well as drawing from the sump,even with a tray the oil gathers heavely on it before passing to the sump.

Page 2 of 2 1 2






Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1