Re: Crank scrapers - HP increases?
[Re: Moparmal]
#180970
01/01/09 09:33 PM
01/01/09 09:33 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,007 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
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I Win
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Posts: 43,007
Bend,OR USA
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I rememeber reading a article in a car mag. several years back(10 to ?) that said that on a small block Chevy that made around 600 hp at 7000 rpm the crank scraper added around 20 hp at 7000 rpm but wasn't worth any power or Tque below 5000 rpm on that dyno I wasn't there and didn't see it, like most magazine articles, so take that for what it is worth. I do make my own on all motors that will be raced at the drags now I shoot for between .030 and .045 clearances to the rods and crankshaft oo a steel rod motor in a cast iron block. Add another .030 clearnce on aluminum rods or a endurance motor or a street motor using a cast iron block.
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: Crank scrapers - HP increases?
[Re: dthemi]
#180976
01/02/09 03:29 PM
01/02/09 03:29 PM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 110 Concord California
Evil_Ways
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Concord California
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Who makes crank scrapers for small and big block Mopars.
Last edited by Evil_Ways; 01/02/09 03:32 PM.
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Re: Crank scrapers - HP increases?
[Re: Evil_Ways]
#180977
01/02/09 03:38 PM
01/02/09 03:38 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 656
griff70440
mopar
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Re: Crank scrapers - HP increases?
[Re: jughed]
#180980
01/02/09 05:42 PM
01/02/09 05:42 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,266 Renton Washington
Triple Threat
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Screens are just designed to limit and slow the back splashing of oil onto the crank.
Thats how I have understood it.
-Dustin 67 Dart, 9 second, 392" G3 Hemi 68 Barracuda 340 F/SA
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Re: Crank scrapers - HP increases?
[Re: dthemi]
#180981
01/02/09 06:24 PM
01/02/09 06:24 PM
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,981 SE Michigan
TS3303
top fuel
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Quote:
I can't say exactly how much, but can assure you it will be worth power. The farther you can keep the crank away from the oil, and the more you can get off the crank the more power you'll make. Ideally like a dry sump there would be no oil in the pan, just a big decompression area in as much vacuum as could be produced.
Darren have you seen similar gains with a dry sump and scraper?
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Re: Crank scrapers - HP increases?
[Re: dthemi]
#180983
01/02/09 07:42 PM
01/02/09 07:42 PM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,910 Eighty Four, PA
B G Racing
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Quote:
Scrapers help in dry sumps just like a wet sump. The oil tries to wrap up all over the crank even in a dry sump. the more you can scrape off the better. I like big dry sump pans with scrapers and screens, and a big bulge on the side for the oil to get slung into.
Windage trays,baffeling,and simple direction oil catches will gain you 10 to 20 Hp.Elaborate closefitting scrapers,wide block(oil pan rails),wide pans,drain down control with proper crankcase ventalation will net you much more.Determining how much depends on the oil control factored by the amount of oil passing from the clearences that splash lube the rotating parts as well as the cylinder walls.Scraper minimize the splash oil and most componants can live on suspended mist lubercation.I wouldn't recommend it for long duration running,but it would be excellent for short duration race engines.
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Re: Crank scrapers - HP increases?
[Re: Locomotion]
#180986
01/03/09 07:05 PM
01/03/09 07:05 PM
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 411 Portersville, Pa
1badx
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Sep 2006
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Portersville, Pa
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Quote:
I never felt comfortable with windage trays, especially with a deeper sump that keeps the oil level further away from the rotating assembly.
I am running my first deep sump/aluminum rod/stock stroke engine and saw this thread and have to ask what are your thoughts on running a windage tray. I have always run one with a stock pan. Should I run a windage tray with the Milodon 10qt pan and aluminum rods?
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Re: Crank scrapers - HP increases?
[Re: Locomotion]
#180989
01/03/09 08:39 PM
01/03/09 08:39 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,943 Melbourne.....Oz-land
Moparmal
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Myron - so are you saying I should ditch my MP windage tray and buy one of the Ishihara crank scrapers? Or modify the windage tray and run both?
67 RO23 clone with 6.1 SRT Hemi and dual quads. Soon to have Drag Pak induction and Throttle body.
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Re: Crank scrapers - HP increases?
[Re: B G Racing]
#180994
01/03/09 10:54 PM
01/03/09 10:54 PM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,097 back in Georgia
dthemi
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Quote:
The main function of the tray and the one way screens is to keep the oil in the sump from being drawn to the rotating mass.There is always oil in suspension around the rotating mass,as it falls and passes through the tray or screen it thus minimizing the return and suspension of oil in the windage of the rotating mass.A scraper minimizes the area of windage and the suspension of oil it creates and directs it to the sump.It deflects the oil in the same manner as a wind screen on a motorcycle deflects the air from the rider.
Nicely worded,straight talk from the farm
All kidding aside, that's absolutely right about the crank grabbing up the oil in the pan. It'll grab it up like toffee in a dough hook. Pressure fluctuation's other than ones caused by too little oil are most often caused from this effect.
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Re: Crank scrapers - HP increases?
[Re: Moparmal]
#180997
01/04/09 01:20 AM
01/04/09 01:20 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,064 Arlington, Texas
earlybee
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Quote:
So not a good idea for a street duty car then?
Thats exactly right on tight clearance scrapers. Pit road and parking lot crusers, street and strip cars need more clearance for oiling the pistons,pins,cam lobes at long low rpm run time.
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Re: Crank scrapers - HP increases?
[Re: earlybee]
#180998
01/04/09 01:52 AM
01/04/09 01:52 AM
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 30,252 Florida STAYcation
dIc dOc Deity !
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The village idiot's idiot
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Florida STAYcation
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Quote:
Quote:
So not a good idea for a street duty car then?
Thats exactly right on tight clearance scrapers. Pit road and parking lot crusers, street and strip cars need more clearance for oiling the pistons,pins,cam lobes at long low rpm run time.
?????
how does a scraper(located on the lower part of the engine) ... negatively affect the oiling at the TOP of the rotating assembly?
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Re: Crank scrapers - HP increases?
[Re: 1badx]
#180999
01/04/09 07:00 AM
01/04/09 07:00 AM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,910 Eighty Four, PA
B G Racing
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Quote:
BG, Jim Pranis told me to look you up if I needed and parts/advice for my build. This GTX build has been on hold due to the dyno business. Things have slowed down a bit in the last month so I'm at it again.
So what do you recommend for my situation? It's a 446, BME rods, stock stroke, Milodon 10qt, external pump, should be going 7200 through the lights.
If your deep pan is baffeled you should be fine.The most I would add is the tray.
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Re: Crank scrapers - HP increases?
[Re: HotRodDave]
#181002
01/04/09 03:38 PM
01/04/09 03:38 PM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,097 back in Georgia
dthemi
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If you could effectively get rid of all the oil from the crank its self the waste oil from the cam and or lifters would oil everything just fine on its own when slung off the crank. When you look at modern high power builds the cam is in a tunnel completely separated from the crank so no oil from the valve train hits the crank. Then every thing you can imagine is done to get the rest off the crank. Even with coated pins they'll still EDM a hole from the rod journal up the beam of the rod to feed the pin a couple drops of oil. Prostockers are still finding better ways to get rid of windage and still finding power from it. I've seen one local prostockers dry sump system pull 21+ vac with no vac pump, that's just the scavenge sections pulling that. They've gotten so good at getting rid of oil, they have to put some back, but they can put right where it's needed. When I look at my own motors and ones way better than mine, they're still primitive by comparison when it comes to oil control. I know it's not for the street, but the manufacturers are doing similar stuff now with dry sumps, sprayers, coatings, and trays/scrapers so why not take as much advantage as you have patience and budget to. For me it's "free" power since it doesn't require stronger parts, more spring, or compression to make. There's a video somewhere that shows a BBC with a clear pan wadding up oil on the crank. I'll post it when I find it.
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Re: Crank scrapers - HP increases?
[Re: HotRodDave]
#181003
01/05/09 12:04 AM
01/05/09 12:04 AM
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 30,252 Florida STAYcation
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The village idiot's idiot
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Florida STAYcation
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Quote:
Quote:
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Quote:
So not a good idea for a street duty car then?
Thats exactly right on tight clearance scrapers. Pit road and parking lot crusers, street and strip cars need more clearance for oiling the pistons,pins,cam lobes at long low rpm run time.
?????
how does a scraper(located on the lower part of the engine) ... negatively affect the oiling at the TOP of the rotating assembly?
The theory is it removes oil from the air slinging around with the crank, this oily air is what also lubricates the cylinder walls and rod small end because there is no preasurized lube up there. It would take a lot of research dollars to determine how much oil has to remain and how much you can remove. Aparently the factory thought windage trays were usefull in both big and small block engine.
BTW I have a miloden windage try similar to the factory SB one except it has twice as many louvers and is a little thicker.
I am not suggesting getting rid of ALL the oil coming off the main and rod areas of the crank ... just on the lower areas.
And as far as the oil coming off the heads, cam and lifters ? ..... I seem to remember a shop doing a test of plumbling all that oil directly with baffles, hoses and a tray ....and the HP savings was worth that effort.
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