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affordable air/fuel ratio monitors? #1804251
04/15/15 04:15 PM
04/15/15 04:15 PM
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Adam71Charger Offline OP
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Im looking at a/f ratio monitors for tuning. affordable unit with dual sensors, 1 for each exhaust pipe. Also looking at possibly buying 2 single sensor units if it's more affordable. Im not sure in the lower price range if there is a big difference in accuracy between analog or digital, but Im interested in whatever works for the best price. Any suggestions?

Re: affordable air/fuel ratio monitors? [Re: Adam71Charger] #1804289
04/15/15 05:15 PM
04/15/15 05:15 PM
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Lakewood, Colorado
herkamer Offline
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Don't think you will get any cheaper than this including 2 Bosch WBO2's. I have the Spartan controller and a gauge for the Demon. Will be going in sometime in the next week, looks like a well built unit..

http://www.14point7.com/products/idash


Matt
69 Dart Swinger 340
83 W350, Megasquirted with 46RH
Old news: 72 Demon street/race mobile
Latest: 70 Duster backhalf car
and even more
Re: affordable air/fuel ratio monitors? [Re: Adam71Charger] #1804352
04/15/15 06:37 PM
04/15/15 06:37 PM
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Adam71Charger Offline OP
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I've never seen one like this. Could have my girlfriend watch my phone as I drive. I called them, it's 399 with dual sensor option. Is that what you meant by Bosch sensors? as in, get my own sensors?

Re: affordable air/fuel ratio monitors? [Re: Adam71Charger] #1804445
04/15/15 09:30 PM
04/15/15 09:30 PM
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DaveRS23 Offline
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How does it pick up the RPM signal. Why do you need the dual sensors? And do you plan to use the other sensor inputs? Can you manipulate (smooth) the data after it is logged? Can the data be downloaded to a laptop or tower to store and review or is the small phone screen big enough for you to get the most out of the graphs?

As long as it can log with RPM and smooth the raw data to something more useable, it does what the Innovate stuff does except for the phone part. I suggest that you talk to some experienced tuners that have tried this new one to make sure that the unit gives the info in a useable manner. All the units out there can take a WBO2 sensor and give data. But some give it in a more meaningful way than others can.

As far as usability, Innovate has the most useable format. But it doesn't use the phone. If that is an important factor here.


Master, again and still
Re: affordable air/fuel ratio monitors? [Re: DaveRS23] #1804450
04/15/15 09:40 PM
04/15/15 09:40 PM
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Adam71Charger Offline OP
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I want 2 sensors for dual exhaust. As I said, I have never seen one that communicates with the phone before. Im running a carbureted 318 with no catalitic converters. Wasnt really looking for something fancy, dont need it to go to my phone, but if it's affordable and accurate Im sold. The tech rep said if the car has an ignition box with a tach output it will read it.

Data logging is a nice feature but I'd be happy with just a analog or digital gauge or even a led readout, like these cheaper ones. But, as far as I can tell they only read 1 O2 sensor.

http://www.jegs.com/i/K%26N/599/85-2439/10002/-1?CAWELAID=1710821777&CAGPSPN=pla&catargetid=230006180000850305&cadevice=c&gclid=CKvL2pa9-cQCFVKDfgodYgsAng

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-6593?seid=srese1&gclid=CK7Zlae9-cQCFVKUfgodLDkAQw

Re: affordable air/fuel ratio monitors? [Re: Adam71Charger] #1804662
04/16/15 01:16 AM
04/16/15 01:16 AM
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herkamer Offline
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$399 includes 2 sensors, one for each bank. $199 is the bare, no sensor price. It communicates on Wi-Fi, so you can connect with anything wireless like a phone, tablet or laptop. Also datalogs for 1.5 hours so you don't necessarily need anything attached while running.

If you want a down and dirty gauge set up, you can go with:
http://www.14point7.com/products/spartan-lambda-controller-2
http://www.14point7.com/products/solid-afr-gauge

You're up to $175 and no datalogging. And only handles one bank. You can't touch an Innovate setup with no gauge for that price. I have a LC-1 in the W350 and it's fine for what it is, but this is great for a carb setup. Does everything someone looking to dial in A/F on a non computer car.


Matt
69 Dart Swinger 340
83 W350, Megasquirted with 46RH
Old news: 72 Demon street/race mobile
Latest: 70 Duster backhalf car
and even more
Re: affordable air/fuel ratio monitors? [Re: herkamer] #1804725
04/16/15 02:41 AM
04/16/15 02:41 AM
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Adam71Charger Offline OP
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Originally Posted By herkamer
$399 includes 2 sensors, one for each bank. $199 is the bare, no sensor price. It communicates on Wi-Fi, so you can connect with anything wireless like a phone, tablet or laptop. Also datalogs for 1.5 hours so you don't necessarily need anything attached while running.

If you want a down and dirty gauge set up, you can go with:
http://www.14point7.com/products/spartan-lambda-controller-2
http://www.14point7.com/products/solid-afr-gauge

You're up to $175 and no datalogging. And only handles one bank. You can't touch an Innovate setup with no gauge for that price. I have a LC-1 in the W350 and it's fine for what it is, but this is great for a carb setup. Does everything someone looking to dial in A/F on a non computer car.


The price for 2 bare bones gauge set ups (o2 sensor, wire and gauge) from the companies I've researched comes to $350-400, which is so close to the iDash price I might just have to get it,

Have you dealt with 14point7 customer service or had any issues with their products?

Looked at the LC-2 from innovate, dont know much about how they compare but the kit is $189, x2 =$378. Looks like it only monitors a/f, which is all I was wanting, but again the idash is 399 and has the ability to monitor much more than a/f and is wireless.

So about the WiFi part... What happens when Im out in BFE trying to tune the car on wide open roads and Im getting no WiFi signal? Can I hook a laptop up to the unit directly? Ill call them back tomorrow and see if the unit can have a computer plugged into it. Also curios if the gauge could be hooked to it later if I wanted.

Re: affordable air/fuel ratio monitors? [Re: Adam71Charger] #1804906
04/16/15 01:16 PM
04/16/15 01:16 PM
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herkamer Offline
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Originally Posted By Adam71Charger

Have you dealt with 14point7 customer service or had any issues with their products?

So about the WiFi part... What happens when Im out in BFE trying to tune the car on wide open roads and Im getting no WiFi signal? Can I hook a laptop up to the unit directly? Ill call them back tomorrow and see if the unit can have a computer plugged into it. Also curios if the gauge could be hooked to it later if I wanted.


Everything I have ordered from them arrived in a week or less, and that is coming from Canada. As long as it's in stock it ships quickly. I will have my Spartan and gauge going this weekend pending snowfall, but it is very comparable to the LC-1 I have. Also no free air calibrations, so that saves time on the initial install. Customer service does not seem to be an issue. Innovate makes good products, I certainly am not bashing them. But owning both, the 14point7 product wins in ease of use and price point.

The iDash comes with a wireless router which will act as your Wi-Fi hotspot. You will connect to it with your monitoring device. As long as you stay within range of the vehicle, you will never have connectivity issues. Also it has 32MB of memory to datalog while you are disconnected, so technically you don't ever have to be connected realtime. I suppose you could just hook up directly with a crossover cable as well. For something that will allow all the other data inputs, the price is hard to beat. As the software develops I'm sure you will see some of the other features enabled like the accelerometer to do quarter mile times.



Matt
69 Dart Swinger 340
83 W350, Megasquirted with 46RH
Old news: 72 Demon street/race mobile
Latest: 70 Duster backhalf car
and even more
Re: affordable air/fuel ratio monitors? [Re: Adam71Charger] #1805169
04/16/15 07:50 PM
04/16/15 07:50 PM
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Manitoba, Canada
DaytonaTurbo Offline
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Innovate LC-1 with an in-dash gauge. There is no value in two sensors in a dual exhaust system IMO. You're tuning both sides of the carb the same anyway. Plus the signal is going to be an average of 4 anyway.

Re: affordable air/fuel ratio monitors? [Re: Adam71Charger] #1805276
04/16/15 10:31 PM
04/16/15 10:31 PM
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DaveRS23 Offline
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I agree that you do not need two sensors.

The graph is the important thing here, not the guage. Logging with RPM and then reviewing the graphs is the way to go. Things just happen too fast at the time to decipher. As long as the screen on the phone is big enough for you to see all the details then give it a try. It would seem to me that all that info on a phone screen would be a bit much, but my eyes aren't what they used to be.

Even though I have a guage, I log a few pulls and then download them, spend some time looking at what is going on and then decide what changes to make. I make them and then log some more, download them, and then compare them to the earlier logs. That is the only way I can determine what is going on and what my changes are doing. Before and after comparisons side by side.


Master, again and still
Re: affordable air/fuel ratio monitors? [Re: DaytonaTurbo] #1805428
04/17/15 04:06 AM
04/17/15 04:06 AM
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Originally Posted By DaytonaTurbo
Innovate LC-1 with an in-dash gauge. There is no value in two sensors in a dual exhaust system IMO. You're tuning both sides of the carb the same anyway. Plus the signal is going to be an average of 4 anyway.


Maybe Im not understanding you completely. Using only 1 sensor for 1 exhasut bank will only give me readings for that exhaust bank. Now, I think that could get me in good ballpark of the overall mixture ratios of the entire engine, but the readings from one bank doesnt guarantee that the other bank is putting out the same.. I want to be able to monitor both banks.

Re: affordable air/fuel ratio monitors? [Re: Adam71Charger] #1805509
04/17/15 11:42 AM
04/17/15 11:42 AM
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DaveRS23 Offline
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You will be fine with one sensor. If you want to see for yourself, then just weld a bung in each side and switch the sensor back and forth. It will only take a couple of minutes to do and you will quickly see that both sides will read close enough to each other. It might be a good idea to have the tech rep send you a pic or two of the graphs that they produce. Study them a bit so that you understand them. Do the same with some other brands for comparison. Because it is the graphs that are the key here.

Does this unit self smooth or average or at least have a manual smoothing or averaging function? I didn't see it mentioned in the description.

Here are a couple of links to tuning sites. They are primarily about using Innovate products, but they provide a good look at carb tuning.

http://racingfuelsystems.myfunforum.org/

http://britishqueen.myfreeforum.org/


Master, again and still
Re: affordable air/fuel ratio monitors? [Re: Adam71Charger] #1805518
04/17/15 11:53 AM
04/17/15 11:53 AM
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Been using narrow band sensors for years and they are cheap. Tuning on a turbo car is far more sensitive to mistakes than a carb n/a application and I have not burned up any turbo engines tuning with them.

$40 for narrow band O2 gauge.

Once wide band came out there was a general drift towards them but for a typical car a needless expense.




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Re: affordable air/fuel ratio monitors? [Re: Adam71Charger] #1805526
04/17/15 12:06 PM
04/17/15 12:06 PM
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Innovate makes a cool little dual gauge these days;

DLG-1: Dual Lambda (AFR) O² Gauge
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/products/dlg1.php

Re: affordable air/fuel ratio monitors? [Re: Adam71Charger] #1805589
04/17/15 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted By Adam71Charger
Originally Posted By DaytonaTurbo
Innovate LC-1 with an in-dash gauge. There is no value in two sensors in a dual exhaust system IMO. You're tuning both sides of the carb the same anyway. Plus the signal is going to be an average of 4 anyway.


Maybe Im not understanding you completely. Using only 1 sensor for 1 exhasut bank will only give me readings for that exhaust bank. Now, I think that could get me in good ballpark of the overall mixture ratios of the entire engine, but the readings from one bank doesnt guarantee that the other bank is putting out the same.. I want to be able to monitor both banks.


Why would one bank be running differently than the other? Heads are the same, cam is the same, exhaust is the same. Almost nobody jets one side of the carb different from the other. Even if you do monitor both banks separately, each reading is an average of 4, which still hides cylinder to cylinder variations.

Re: affordable air/fuel ratio monitors? [Re: DaytonaTurbo] #1805591
04/17/15 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted By DaytonaTurbo


Why would one bank be running differently than the other? Heads are the same, cam is the same, exhaust is the same. Almost nobody jets one side of the carb different from the other.


I'd point out some carbs have fuel bowls side to side not front to back.




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Re: affordable air/fuel ratio monitors? [Re: Adam71Charger] #1805629
04/17/15 02:38 PM
04/17/15 02:38 PM
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Because intakes can be designed badly that one side of the engine or a few cylinders need to or less fuel than the rest.

I've got 2 sensors and gauges mounted in my dual carbed longram intake engine.
While this ofcourse can almost be seen as two seperate engines, still the amount of variations between the carbs and engine sides is interesting to say the least.

Re: affordable air/fuel ratio monitors? [Re: BigBlockMopar] #1805637
04/17/15 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted By BigBlockMopar
Innovate makes a cool little dual gauge these days;

DLG-1: Dual Lambda (AFR) O² Gauge
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/products/dlg1.php



Looked at those. They cost $368 to $399. It's really all I need, but, the idash does what DLG-1 does plus more, and it's the same price.

Re: affordable air/fuel ratio monitors? [Re: gdonovan] #1805639
04/17/15 02:50 PM
04/17/15 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted By gdonovan
Been using narrow band sensors for years and they are cheap. Tuning on a turbo car is far more sensitive to mistakes than a carb n/a application and I have not burned up any turbo engines tuning with them.

$40 for narrow band O2 gauge.

Once wide band came out there was a general drift towards them but for a typical car a needless expense.



Who makes these? are they complete kit with o2 sensor, wiring and gauge?

Re: affordable air/fuel ratio monitors? [Re: Adam71Charger] #1805657
04/17/15 03:10 PM
04/17/15 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted By Adam71Charger


Who makes these? are they complete kit with o2 sensor, wiring and gauge?



Edelbrock makes a kit, never used though-

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-6593

Cyberdyne gauge only (Summit branded) $28 I have used these for decades.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-g2986-1

Autometer version ($80)

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/atm-5775


I have used this one on my GTX since the mid-90s (no longer available)

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/KNN-85-2437/

Car runs low 11's at 124 mph, all tuned with narrow band and timeslips.

Almost any narrow band sensor will do, if short on cash grab a handfull at the nearest pick and pull. They are dead simple devices that run low volts when lean (0V) and 1.0V when rich. The gauges are nothing but digital volt meters with a 0-1 volt scale.




"I think its got a hemi"
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