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Re: Future 5.9 engine build for 3/4 ton ram
[Re: kenworth_goose]
#1770906
03/04/15 01:16 AM
03/04/15 01:16 AM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,419
Kalispell Mt.
HotRodDave
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,419
Kalispell Mt.
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My 318 in my 99 dak is on it's way out and I am planning on building a 5.9 with KB107s grind out the space between the valve releifs and round off the short edges a little, set it to .035 quench re-use the 318 cam, I am going to try to find a way to keep the heat off the plenum pan (they detonate so bad because the intake air is heated so bad from hot oil off the cam hitting the belly pan), exhaust will be 618 and 619 manifolds, V10 head pipes into a good 3 inch single exhaust. I will do mild port work to clean things up and a good VJ to help low lift flow, ported stock throttle body and cold air intake. I got about 100 rods to pick from, pick the 8 lightest, grind the corners down a little to remove weight then grind some of the funky bosses off the crank and balance it. Stick in the yellow ford 5.4 injectors and slap it together. I would like to do long tube 1 5/8 headers but the good ones are too expensive and I will not use the cheap headers. I daily drive this truck and hardly ever rev over 3000 RPM with the 5 speed trans. In my experience this will make tons of low end TQ and make awesome MPG. I added R/T durango sway bars and t-bars up front and an extra leaf and thicker sway bar in the rear so it tows better than my old 98 1/2 ton did, I just can't put any thing back together stock 
I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!
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Re: Future 5.9 engine build for 3/4 ton ram
[Re: kenworth_goose]
#1770907
03/04/15 01:17 AM
03/04/15 01:17 AM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,419
Kalispell Mt.
HotRodDave
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I Live Here
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Posts: 12,419
Kalispell Mt.
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The 318 cam is more lift and less duration, not much and not worth going out of your way to find one but it is a small upgrade if it is sitting around your shop like they are mine.
I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!
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Re: Future 5.9 engine build for 3/4 ton ram
[Re: WO23Coronet]
#1770909
03/04/15 05:19 PM
03/04/15 05:19 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,419
Kalispell Mt.
HotRodDave
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I Live Here
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Kalispell Mt.
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horespower yes, TQ/MPG no.
In reality they are all very similar and a cam swap between any of them is almost not noticable.
I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!
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Re: Future 5.9 engine build for 3/4 ton ram
[Re: WO23Coronet]
#1770910
03/05/15 01:08 AM
03/05/15 01:08 AM
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 2,046
ky.
kenworth_goose
OP
top fuel
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OP
top fuel
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 2,046
ky.
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Quote:
How about a stroker? A 408 would wake it up, could then use more cam duration wise while still generating more torque. I always thought the dakota R/T cam (and all post 2000 5.9's) had the best cam for a keg intake?
I have zero interest in a stroker for a 3/4 ton work truck. Not to mention I can make just as much power with a 360 for a whole lot less money. I'm interested in torque for pulling. I believe a 10 to 1 360 will get me where I want. 360's wake up with a little more compression any how.
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Re: Future 5.9 engine build for 3/4 ton ram
[Re: kenworth_goose]
#1770911
03/05/15 05:25 PM
03/05/15 05:25 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 21,318
Manitoba, Canada
DaytonaTurbo
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 21,318
Manitoba, Canada
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Quote:
Quote:
How about a stroker? A 408 would wake it up, could then use more cam duration wise while still generating more torque. I always thought the dakota R/T cam (and all post 2000 5.9's) had the best cam for a keg intake?
I have zero interest in a stroker for a 3/4 ton work truck. Not to mention I can make just as much power with a 360 for a whole lot less money. I'm interested in torque for pulling. I believe a 10 to 1 360 will get me where I want. 360's wake up with a little more compression any how.
Well all else being equal a stroker will make more torq and at a lower rpm. But if you're trying to keep the budget down and weren't planning on boring the engine, then might as well stick with the stock rotating assy. Could always mill the heads to get the compression up. Problem is if memory serves the 5.9's have a full dish piston, not a D shaped dish. Meaning unless you change pistons you won't get any quench with them like you could with a stock piston magnum 318. IMO the quench will be worth a little extra power and efficiency with some extra detonation resistance. But if you're gonna change pistons anyway, the stroker option doesn't sound so bad...
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Re: Future 5.9 engine build for 3/4 ton ram
[Re: kenworth_goose]
#1770912
03/05/15 06:13 PM
03/05/15 06:13 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 13,351
Marion, South Carolina [><]
an8sec70cuda
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 13,351
Marion, South Carolina [><]
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Quote:
Quote:
How about a stroker? A 408 would wake it up, could then use more cam duration wise while still generating more torque. I always thought the dakota R/T cam (and all post 2000 5.9's) had the best cam for a keg intake?
I have zero interest in a stroker for a 3/4 ton work truck. Not to mention I can make just as much power with a 360 for a whole lot less money. I'm interested in torque for pulling. I believe a 10 to 1 360 will get me where I want. 360's wake up with a little more compression any how.
A stroker makes the most sense for a big 3/4 ton truck that needs more torque and towing power. You can make the same power w/ a stock stroke 360, but it'll be at a much higher RPM and not be as tow friendly. The only reason not to stroke it would be cost, but it isn't much more if you're gonna be changing pistons.
Of course, w/ the gas mileage you claim from the 360 you currently have, there's no way I'd change anything on that truck. It has truly been blessed.
CHIP
'70 hemicuda, 575" Hemi, 727, Dana 60
'69 road runner, 440-6, 18 spline 4 speed, Dana 60
'71 Demon, 340, low gear 904, 8.75
'73 Chrysler New Yorker, 440, 727, 8.75
'90 Chevy 454SS Silverado, 476" BBC, TH400, 14 bolt
'06 GMC 2500HD LBZ Duramax
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Re: Future 5.9 engine build for 3/4 ton ram
[Re: kenworth_goose]
#1770913
03/05/15 06:58 PM
03/05/15 06:58 PM
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 20,622
in a cattle trailer down by th...
Guitar Jones
Paddle faster! I hear banjo music!
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Paddle faster! I hear banjo music!
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 20,622
in a cattle trailer down by th...
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If you are interested in torque for pulling then you should have a lot of interest in a stroker. It doesn't cost that much more for a cast 4" arm. The pistons are about the same, it's really a no brainer.
"Follow me the wise man said, but he walked behind"
'92 D250 Club Cab CTD, 47RH conversion, pump tweaks, injectors, rear disc and hydroboost conversion.
'74 W200 Crew Cab 360, NV4500, D44, D60 and NP205 divorced transfer case. Rear disc and hydroboost coming soon!
2019 1500 Long Horn Crew Cab 4WD, 5.7 Hemi.
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Re: Future 5.9 engine build for 3/4 ton ram
[Re: Guitar Jones]
#1770914
03/05/15 08:04 PM
03/05/15 08:04 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,419
Kalispell Mt.
HotRodDave
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I Live Here
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It is true you would have a hard time getting more than maybe %10 more TQ without stroking it. MPG can easily be improved.
A stroker is a lot more money if you are on a tight budget, $150 turn a crank, $200 balancing (although with the KB107 you may get away without it), $266 summit kb107, re-use stock rods=$616 you can not buy a new stroker crank balancing and pistons for that even at the best sale prices. The cheapest possible way would be a SCAT crank and stumble on some NOS mopar cast pistons and even at that you will not get tight quench and decent compression without milling your block a lot.
I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!
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Re: Future 5.9 engine build for 3/4 ton ram
[Re: HotRodDave]
#1770916
03/06/15 10:32 AM
03/06/15 10:32 AM
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 20,622
in a cattle trailer down by th...
Guitar Jones
Paddle faster! I hear banjo music!
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Paddle faster! I hear banjo music!
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 20,622
in a cattle trailer down by th...
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Quote:
It is true you would have a hard time getting more than maybe %10 more TQ without stroking it. MPG can easily be improved.
A stroker is a lot more money if you are on a tight budget, $150 turn a crank, $200 balancing (although with the KB107 you may get away without it), $266 summit kb107, re-use stock rods=$616 you can not buy a new stroker crank balancing and pistons for that even at the best sale prices. The cheapest possible way would be a SCAT crank and stumble on some NOS mopar cast pistons and even at that you will not get tight quench and decent compression without milling your block a lot.
I disagree. Just a quick search, Ohio Crankshaft has cast 4" 360 main cranks for $345. http://www.ohiocrank.com/mopar_cranks.html. If you are buying KB pistons the stroker pistons price is nearly the same. You would need to balance the crank either way. Reuse the stock rods. So if you have to turn the stock crank the difference is only about $200. If you don't need to turn the crank then you are only looking at about $350 difference. Where's the big expense? You are still boring and decking the block. 
"Follow me the wise man said, but he walked behind"
'92 D250 Club Cab CTD, 47RH conversion, pump tweaks, injectors, rear disc and hydroboost conversion.
'74 W200 Crew Cab 360, NV4500, D44, D60 and NP205 divorced transfer case. Rear disc and hydroboost coming soon!
2019 1500 Long Horn Crew Cab 4WD, 5.7 Hemi.
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Re: Future 5.9 engine build for 3/4 ton ram
[Re: Guitar Jones]
#1770917
03/06/15 05:19 PM
03/06/15 05:19 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,419
Kalispell Mt.
HotRodDave
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I Live Here
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The cheapest readily available stroker piston is the KB356 at $420 a set and you have to pay a machine shop to mill the dome off or it will hit a magnum head. Count on at least $100 there. http://www.summitracing.com/parts/uem-kb356-030http://www.summitracing.com/parts/uem-kb107-030Stroker... Pistons $420 Mill piston $100 probably more Crank $350 $870 Not stroker... Pistons $266 Crank $150 $416 And that is asuming the 360 crank needs balanced, the KB107 is about the same weight as a 5.9 magnum piston, in a low RPM motor you would probably be wasting your money. Without balancing the 360 crank it would be even bigger difference. Also with MPG as a consideration the smaller engine wins and the flat top piston wins. PS I have used stock rods in 4 inch strokers and there is a lot of grinding, if you don't/can't do it yourself you have to pay a machine shop to clearance your block.
I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!
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Re: Future 5.9 engine build for 3/4 ton ram
[Re: HotRodDave]
#1770918
03/06/15 05:49 PM
03/06/15 05:49 PM
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 20,622
in a cattle trailer down by th...
Guitar Jones
Paddle faster! I hear banjo music!
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Paddle faster! I hear banjo music!
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 20,622
in a cattle trailer down by th...
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At Summit I see the KB356 for $420, the KB190 for $324, so $100. Why would you have to mill the piston? It's made for the stroker and a Magnum head. I didn't do the math because we don't know what his deck height will be and I'm at work but even if there is a problem thicker head gaskets are available. I don't see the block clearancing as a problem. An hour with a die grinder and carbide bur will easily accomplish the task unless you are totally inept at mechanical things, in which case you shouldn't be building an engine anyway.  It just doesn't make sense to not consider the stroker for it's obvious low end grunt capabilities over the 360. As for the fuel mileage question, gasoline engines deliver their best fuel economy at the RPM where they are most volumetric efficient, which in a stroker would be at a lower RPM. All subject to head flow and camshaft of course. You would have to build a more radical 360 to get the same torque as a stroker which would mean having to turn it harder.
"Follow me the wise man said, but he walked behind"
'92 D250 Club Cab CTD, 47RH conversion, pump tweaks, injectors, rear disc and hydroboost conversion.
'74 W200 Crew Cab 360, NV4500, D44, D60 and NP205 divorced transfer case. Rear disc and hydroboost coming soon!
2019 1500 Long Horn Crew Cab 4WD, 5.7 Hemi.
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Re: Future 5.9 engine build for 3/4 ton ram
[Re: Guitar Jones]
#1770920
03/06/15 07:43 PM
03/06/15 07:43 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,419
Kalispell Mt.
HotRodDave
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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The KB 190 (stock stroke) and 356 (4 inch stroke) both for some stupid reaon have a step that comes up above the deck and it WILL hit the head without machining it off, that hyper material is very hard so good luck taking it off with a file. It is there so you can pretend to get quench with an open chamber head and will not work without milling it off in a magnum build, I have been there and done it, wasted the money and learned the lesson. The KB107 on the other hand is the piston he needs for a stock stroke and it is like $266 at summit. It sounds like most of his driving is empty (even I would not believe his MPG claims if he was loaded down). That being the case a correctly built 5.9 will get better MPG than a stroker. That all being said I am going to drop a 392 stroker in my 4x4 dakota and a 410 in my 2wd R/T dakota because the trade off in MPG is ok, I am a firm beleiver in strokers but in his case it may or may not be a good plan. He asked how to build a 360 not a 408. The costs always seem to add up to more than planned when talking strokers 
I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!
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Re: Future 5.9 engine build for 3/4 ton ram
[Re: kenworth_goose]
#1770922
03/06/15 11:29 PM
03/06/15 11:29 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,419
Kalispell Mt.
HotRodDave
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I Live Here
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Kalispell Mt.
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I will not argue the HP but a stroker just makes more TQ no way around it.
I need to clarify my statement about the kb190 piston, it is a flat top with a raised area(the kb356 is a dished piston that still has a big dome on one side)and will hit the magnum on two sides of the head, not just one like the 356. If you mill all that off of it you get what is known as a KB107 + a lot less money in your pocket. They work fine in a 360 LA but not a magnum.
I built a 360 LA with the kb107 one time and it vibrated, just a little, then after re-doing it exactly the same with a balance job it pulled a lot harder up top. It did not feel like it was killing itself or anything but it was way happier at 6000 RPM after balancing.
I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!
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Re: Future 5.9 engine build for 3/4 ton ram
[Re: HotRodDave]
#1770924
03/07/15 01:31 PM
03/07/15 01:31 PM
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 6,167
Maryland
GO_Fish
master
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master
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 6,167
Maryland
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Quote:
I am going to try to find a way to keep the heat off the plenum pan (they detonate so bad because the intake air is heated so bad from hot oil off the cam hitting the belly pan
Dave, I've got a valley tray on my LA 360 with Mag heads. It keeps hot oil off the bottom of the intake + has the added feature of keeping the lifter in the bore in the event of a bent push rod, making sure your oil pressure doesn't go to zero instantly. Should fit a Magnum motor also?? I think it was made by Milodon, maybe Morosso, probably got it from Summit
EDIT here. valley tray
Looks like the Magnum roller lifters may kill this deal for you. You might be able to trim this to work with the Magnum rollers, but that may loose the ability to keep the lifter in the bore. Mag rollers have a bracket to keep the lifters from spinning, does that keep the lifter in the bore also?
Last edited by GO_Fish; 03/07/15 01:43 PM.
Scott B.
"I'm a self-made man... I started with nothing, and I still have most of it!"
68 360 rusty B'cuda 'vert (GO Fish)13.59@ 98.72 mph
69 340 GTS stock 14.18@ 95.60 mph
01 5.9L Ram 1500 Quad Cab 4x4
01 3.5L 300M 16.23@ 86.97 mph
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