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Hemi Vs Wedge Debate #176814
12/28/08 12:17 AM
12/28/08 12:17 AM
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Rock Springs
Bob_Coomer Offline OP
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OK we have similar builds, compression 13:1+ Solid Roller setups. All good valve gear. Same style intakes with similar carbs. Lets say both engine heads have been fully ported in which the wedge heads flow around 380+cfm at .800 lift, with a larger 360CC port....The hemi heads flow a bit better 450-460cfm+ at .800 lift, with a way smaller runner. 240-250cc runner. How will the intake/head differences effect HP, and Torque between these engines? Which would have a broader Torque range... Will the wedge head seem to make more power up top?

I have a good guess on power for the Wedge
But wondering how a Hemi build similar would run


[color:"red"]65 Hemi Belvedere coming soon [/color]
[color:"#00FF00"]557" Indy engine 1.07 60ft 144mph in the 8th 2100 lbs package [/color]
Re: Hemi Vs Wedge Debate [Re: Bob_Coomer] #176815
12/28/08 12:23 AM
12/28/08 12:23 AM

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A lot of varibles enter in to this...The main one is cubic inches..Are you talking 426H vs.440W or are we talking about motors with a 4.25 or 4.5 arm?

Re: Hemi Vs Wedge Debate #176816
12/28/08 12:44 AM
12/28/08 12:44 AM
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Rock Springs
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Lets say both are 572 4.5x4.5

Re: Hemi Vs Wedge Debate [Re: Bob_Coomer] #176817
12/28/08 01:05 AM
12/28/08 01:05 AM
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This argument's been going on for about 80 years. I can tell you that when my car pulls to the line people come running. Having said that, I would turn my car off and get out to watch Chuck Millen's Wedge. It's personal choice, or more truthfully my Mom would disown me if I didn't run a Hemi.

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Re: Hemi Vs Wedge Debate [Re: RAT PATROL] #176818
12/28/08 02:35 AM
12/28/08 02:35 AM
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Rock Springs
Bob_Coomer Offline OP
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Quote:

This argument's been going on for about 80 years. I can tell you that when my car pulls to the line people come running. Having said that, I would turn my car off and get out to watch Chuck Millen's Wedge. It's personal choice, or more truthfully my Mom would disown me if I didn't run a Hemi.




I here that, great looking car, I would love to know your setup. The carbs etc. I will be running the same intake as you also..... Feel free to pm me about the entire car if you want...
BTW
I feel the same with Chucks car, never seen it run, but I know him personally, good people...


[color:"red"]65 Hemi Belvedere coming soon [/color]
[color:"#00FF00"]557" Indy engine 1.07 60ft 144mph in the 8th 2100 lbs package [/color]
Re: Hemi Vs Wedge Debate [Re: Bob_Coomer] #176819
12/28/08 08:52 AM
12/28/08 08:52 AM
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nielsville, minn.
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Same size motors, The Hemi will have better numbers. Dave

Re: Hemi Vs Wedge Debate [Re: Bob_Coomer] #176820
12/28/08 11:04 AM
12/28/08 11:04 AM
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Michigan
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Quote:

Quote:

This argument's been going on for about 80 years. I can tell you that when my car pulls to the line people come running. Having said that, I would turn my car off and get out to watch Chuck Millen's Wedge. It's personal choice, or more truthfully my Mom would disown me if I didn't run a Hemi.




I here that, great looking car, I would love to know your setup. The carbs etc. I will be running the same intake as you also..... Feel free to pm me about the entire car if you want...
BTW
I feel the same with Chucks car, never seen it run, but I know him personally, good people...




Add me to the list I too am building a 65 Belvedere with a 572 Hemi, Stage V big valves, Mopar x-ram etc...I'm a little curious what mods the intake needs. I know the plenum covers need to be fixed or replaced. Anyway, any insight or advice would be greatly appreciated

Marc


'65 Belvedere
'68 GTX
'57 Dodge pickup
Re: Hemi Vs Wedge Debate [Re: Get-X] #176821
12/28/08 11:29 AM
12/28/08 11:29 AM
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Forget the runner CC comparison. That only works on the same type head. That much flow difference, I'd say the hemi would be quicker. No doubt it would have more torque and a flatter curve too. But, it's all personal choice. Either one can do the deed.
If I could stand the price difference, I'd go hemi. Plus if you ever sell, you'd likely get that difference back.

Re: Hemi Vs Wedge Debate [Re: RAT PATROL] #176822
12/28/08 11:33 AM
12/28/08 11:33 AM
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Quote:

This argument's been going on for about 80 years. I can tell you that when my car pulls to the line people come running. Having said that, I would turn my car off and get out to watch Chuck Millen's Wedge. It's personal choice, or more truthfully my Mom would disown me if I didn't run a Hemi.




Beautiful car!! and remember....Always listen to your mother.

Re: Hemi Vs Wedge Debate [Re: moeflo] #176823
12/28/08 11:47 AM
12/28/08 11:47 AM

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The Hemi is going to make more bottom end power, but the wedge will be very reliable. Top end power is a toss-up...Wedge is cheaper to build....Hemi valve train pieces cost a small fortune....

I would build the wedge, but I may be a little prejudice, I run wedges...

4905959-wdg12.jpg (453 downloads)
Re: Hemi Vs Wedge Debate [Re: Get-X] #176824
12/28/08 11:54 AM
12/28/08 11:54 AM
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I'll add to the argument based on having street driven,raced,built,and tuned the fabled Hemis and Wedges in about every configuration,with the exception of T/F and only occasionally with nitrous .I can proclaim the in pure configuration in the right hands the Hemi gets my vote.Taking things to another level with all the R&D of wedge inspired techonology,the wedge engine have taken an edge.In certain venues where rules of modification limit or regulate the use of aftermarket techonology(class racing) the Hemi retains the edge.In pressurized(blown&turbo- charged) the Hemi will stand tall above all types engines.With all the new wedge or canted wedge style cylinder heads and manifold combinations the Wedges have a slight advantage,and are the popular choise.If someone wants to expound the time and effort to do some heavy Hemi R&D it would certainly be competitive to any engine if not reclaim it prestiges reputation of years past.The the word Hemi,the look,and the performance will make any nobody become someone to be respected.Take for instance four of my favorite all time big losers,Missle Kevin,HemiFred,Hemmeroidites,and the Yankee Fish Peddler.With out a Hemi they would be just four more flies on a pile of crap.

Re: Hemi Vs Wedge Debate #176825
12/28/08 11:56 AM
12/28/08 11:56 AM
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Oakland, MI
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How come you guys think the hemi would make more low end torque? Not having specifics on the heads, something that flows 80cfm more has a larger port, meaning it needs more RPM to get the airspeed up. I would think the wedge would be better down low, and the hemi would make it upstairs...

Re: Hemi Vs Wedge Debate [Re: dizuster] #176826
12/28/08 12:19 PM
12/28/08 12:19 PM
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Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
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In the old days, when comparing 426 hemi to 440 wedge, the hemi was always quicker. Then you look at all the heavy cars in the 9's, and it was always them hemi's. The wedge engines were the ones in the 10's.

Now with the advent of all the R&D, both have got better, and both are capable of 8's in a nearly street weight car at 572 cubes, which is better...Does it matter at that level? I like both, and for me it would depend on the application and what I want to do with the car.

For my car, there was no other choice. I had a tunnel rammed 440 in the car, and nobody even noticed it. I put the hemi in it, and it became the crowd favorite. Other than the heads and pistons, they are pretty similar engines. Which is better, again depends on the car and the goal in mind I think.

4906027-S_hemi966.jpg (438 downloads)

'70 Cuda,...605 EFI Hemi Street Car (6.20 best pass, 1.33 60ft)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYw6RA-k5Bk (6.25 at 108.75mph from inside car)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zQEb9uxFng (6.25 at 108mph from outside car)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCvfzsC4NgM (9.9)

'66 Barracuda AWB Stretched nose Blown 440 Car in build stage

'71 Duster Drag Car 400 Low Deck 512 best 6.002 at 115.44mph
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Znuo3jMUXTk
Re: Hemi Vs Wedge Debate [Re: dizuster] #176827
12/28/08 12:33 PM
12/28/08 12:33 PM
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ELYRIA,OH
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Quote:

How come you guys think the hemi would make more low end torque? Not having specifics on the heads, something that flows 80cfm more has a larger port, meaning it needs more RPM to get the airspeed up. I would think the wedge would be better down low, and the hemi would make it upstairs...



narrower power band.

Re: Hemi Vs Wedge Debate [Re: blownzoom440] #176828
12/28/08 12:49 PM
12/28/08 12:49 PM
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Mopar Lane,Mississippi
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The Hemi is easier to change spark plugs in plus they have a lot more factor

Last edited by 67wedge; 12/28/08 12:50 PM.

'33 Plymouth 5 Window Coupe Blown Aluminum HEMI w/bolt ons (under construction) '69 Chrysler 300 Convertible 375 HP 440 '71 Plymouth Duster 360 W/EFI (Wife's Ride) '12 Ram MegaCab Dually 6.7 Cummins
Re: Hemi Vs Wedge Debate [Re: blownzoom440] #176829
12/28/08 12:50 PM
12/28/08 12:50 PM
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Walton's Mountain, Pa
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Bob Reed says: "There are two types of people in this world, those who have Hemis and those who want Hemis".

I couldn't say it better myself!


"Old age and treachery trumps youth and enthusiasm, every time!"

East Central Director / Chrysler Power Magazine

www.reasbeckracing.webs.com
Re: Hemi Vs Wedge Debate [Re: Steve1118] #176830
12/28/08 12:52 PM
12/28/08 12:52 PM
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Mopar Lane,Mississippi
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Quote:

Bob Reed says: "There are two types of people in this world, those who have Hemis and those who want Hemis".

I couldn't say it better myself!




I am one of the wanters


'33 Plymouth 5 Window Coupe Blown Aluminum HEMI w/bolt ons (under construction) '69 Chrysler 300 Convertible 375 HP 440 '71 Plymouth Duster 360 W/EFI (Wife's Ride) '12 Ram MegaCab Dually 6.7 Cummins
Re: Hemi Vs Wedge Debate [Re: 67HEMI] #176831
12/28/08 01:06 PM
12/28/08 01:06 PM
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A hemi port does not have to be huge to flow like crazy, look at the new version hemi for proof, ports are no bigger than a SB head but can easily flow way over 300cfm like a heavily ported W2. The air flow has an almost direct shot at the back of the valve with a very long sweeping short turn it can make really fast and high volume air flow through a relativly small port.

All that being said I beleive with the factory valve positions an equally built wedge and hemi the hemi will always make more power. Now throw in all the canted valve wedges and moved centerlines and yes the wedges can keep up with the hemi.

BTW the comparison of the CC of the port is unfair because the Hemi has a shorter distance to the valve inside the head. A better comparison would be to compare minimum cross section in witch case the hemi will flow more in standard valve configuration.

The main reason the wedge is so popular is just because it is so much cheaper with only one rocker shaft and no spark plug tubes.


I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!



Re: Hemi Vs Wedge Debate [Re: B G Racing] #176832
12/28/08 01:40 PM
12/28/08 01:40 PM

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Quote:

Take for instance four of my favorite all time big losers,Missle Kevin,HemiFred,Hemmeroidites,and the Yankee Fish Peddler.With out a Hemi they would be just four more flies on a pile of crap.






Yep, my only input is, I have never seen a shirt that says;Yea ...It's got a Wedge


Sincerely,
Kevin "The Fly"

Re: Hemi Vs Wedge Debate [Re: HotRodDave] #176833
12/28/08 01:45 PM
12/28/08 01:45 PM
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Seems pretty simple. If the hemi was the be all and end all of naturally aspirated engines they would be ruling the heads up classes of the world. I think we can all agree that they do not do that.


"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."

"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
Re: Hemi Vs Wedge Debate [Re: Al_Alguire] #176834
12/28/08 02:17 PM
12/28/08 02:17 PM
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Quote:

Seems pretty simple. If the hemi was the be all and end all of naturally aspirated engines they would be ruling the heads up classes of the world. I think we can all agree that they do not do that.


But at the same time we can all agree that no engine can compete with a Hemi in S S/S classes?
How much hp does dthemi make N/A? (being a purpose built nitrous engine?)

Re: Hemi Vs Wedge Debate [Re: RemCharger] #176835
12/28/08 02:26 PM
12/28/08 02:26 PM
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SO now we are putting restrictions on the engines??? The SS stuff has plenty for sure. At best it means in a purely stock form that the Hemi had better heads. But I did not realize we were now restricting the engines to stock type heads. In that case I think we can all agree there is no comparison.


"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."

"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
Re: Hemi Vs Wedge Debate [Re: Al_Alguire] #176836
12/28/08 02:37 PM
12/28/08 02:37 PM
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moeflo Offline
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Quote:

Seems pretty simple. If the hemi was the be all and end all of naturally aspirated engines they would be ruling the heads up classes of the world. I think we can all agree that they do not do that.




This being titled "hemi vs. wedge", please share with us where a wedge is the preferred layout for any class, anywhere, unless the rules require it to be "inline valves".

I don't see how you can say an IHRA P/S engine isn't a hemi, but you can call a DRCE or a hemi 99 a wedge. Not with a straight face anyway.

Re: Hemi Vs Wedge Debate [Re: Al_Alguire] #176837
12/28/08 02:40 PM
12/28/08 02:40 PM
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You've got to be kidding! The ALL-TIME heads-up classes. T/F, F/C & IHRA P/S all use Hemi heads. Whether they call 'em Mopars, Fords or now Chevys the design is still the same-- HEMI. When NHRA DID have heads-up P/S racing it was so one-sided they added weight to the Hemi cars & NASCAR flat-out banned them for a year until that political mess could get straightened out.
Is A hEMI PERFECT? OF COURSE NOT! they're expensive, finicky, huge, heavy & comparitively complicated. But if price is no concern & you're not limited by rules or physical space, a hemi anything is the way to go.

Re: Hemi Vs Wedge Debate [Re: hemicop] #176838
12/28/08 02:45 PM
12/28/08 02:45 PM
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Your kidding right?? Did you miss the NATURALLY ASPIRATED part of the answer? Oh yeah this is almost 2009 not the 1970's

Well being a guy who has run both Hemi and Wedge configured naturally aspirated Mopars I will not be going back to a Hemi, period. Well unless it is a 99 Hemi but who are we fooling that aint a Hemi anyway.


"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."

"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
Re: Hemi Vs Wedge Debate [Re: Al_Alguire] #176839
12/28/08 02:48 PM
12/28/08 02:48 PM
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No restrictions on anything. Look at unlimited N/A classes. You won't find a "pure" hemi or wedge. The laws of physics will dictate the direction if the rules are allowed to stand long enough. And, what we're seeing is a merge of the two, each with variations favoring the target class. The ideal 820" cylinder head won't look like the ideal 500" head. It leans toward the hemi end of the scale because it desperately needs the extra valve area and flow. The 500" still looks to favor the smallest chamber as they're hugely over-square and can obtain the valve area needed with shallow angles.
All one has to do is follow the evolution of such classes, and it becomes clear which is best in all out racing. And the answer is it's always a combination. To which side of center the combination falls into depends on the specific class.

Re: Hemi Vs Wedge Debate [Re: moeflo] #176840
12/28/08 02:57 PM
12/28/08 02:57 PM
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I agree that at the top of the heap the heads are niether wedge nor hemi. Heck the only competitive and regularly winning Mopar I can think of is the Wedge -1 headed deal of Andy Mayes. He has now switched to a B1, I imagine if they thought they could win and make more power with a Hemi they would do it.

In the ned there is not right answer to this question i am sure. It is one of those winter debates that goes on around here every year. We get off the wall statements from key board racers, opinions from those who have used both, opinions from professional engine builders and the question always goes unanswered. People prefer the engine type they prefer. I can only go on what I have tried. In the past two years I have ran two Hemis and two wedges and have formed my opinion. The weight of a Hemi piston and the cost of the valvetrain are enough to keep me in wedges for a good long time. FWIW there was more money in the 900hp Hemi I had than the 1041hp Wedge I now have.


"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."

"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
Re: Hemi Vs Wedge Debate [Re: Al_Alguire] #176841
12/28/08 03:03 PM
12/28/08 03:03 PM
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Oregon,USA
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Al, you have an outstanding car! I hope to be lucky enough this year to get to see it in person!

Re: Hemi Vs Wedge Debate [Re: Bob_Coomer] #176842
12/28/08 03:43 PM
12/28/08 03:43 PM
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Wedges are cool , but Hemis are awesome. Now lets all have a beer!

Re: Hemi Vs Wedge Debate [Re: Al_Alguire] #176843
12/28/08 04:11 PM
12/28/08 04:11 PM
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Phoenix,Az.
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Physics don't change with time & I DID mention some n/a types of racing. I've run wedges & hemis too & while I agree,to a point, 21st century technology is different, given the parameters I mentioned, there's no easy way to beat a hemi.
It's not just me talking --- engine builders like Sonny Leonard, John Kaase, Arias Pistons & a few others, all (& in some cases still) use & develop hemi heads where rules allow. The BEST example is IHRA P/S --- no matter what the brand, some derivitative of a hemi head is used

Re: Hemi Vs Wedge Debate [Re: hemicop] #176844
12/28/08 04:28 PM
12/28/08 04:28 PM
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Eighty Four, PA
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Kind of getting off track for a Hemi vs Wedge topic. Let's go back to pinion angles and 8-3/4 rearends.

Re: Hemi Vs Wedge Debate [Re: hemicop] #176845
12/28/08 04:29 PM
12/28/08 04:29 PM
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God's Country Maryland
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What it boils down to is shrouding of both valves, intake and exhaust. Both valves in the wedge combustion chamber have shrouding, restricting flow. They are shrouded by the chamber along with the cylinder itself when the valve's open. The Hemi chamber doesn't have this problem, they are getting the full use of their valves and ports with no shrouding. This is the reason they came out with the canted valve heads, to alleviate some of the shrouding of the wedge head design.


I love the smell of Deer guts in the morning, it smells like... VICTORY!
Re: Hemi Vs Wedge Debate [Re: B G Racing] #176846
12/28/08 05:33 PM
12/28/08 05:33 PM
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Sk. Canada
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Quote:

Kind of getting off track for a Hemi vs Wedge topic. Let's go back to pinion angles and 8-3/4 rearends.


8-3/4 =wedge
9-3/4= Hemi.






Re: Hemi Vs Wedge Debate [Re: B G Racing] #176847
12/28/08 05:44 PM
12/28/08 05:44 PM
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Quote:

Kind of getting off track for a Hemi vs Wedge topic. Let's go back to pinion angles and 8-3/4 rearends.




i dont care who you are thats some funny chit right there

Re: Hemi Vs Wedge Debate [Re: RemCharger] #176848
12/28/08 05:51 PM
12/28/08 05:51 PM
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As said the valve placement of the Hemi is superior as the valves open away (not parallel) to the bores for a better flow window. In terms of port efficiency only a 4 valve hemi can be better.

The downside to the Hemi has always been the comparatively heavy piston needed to fill up the chamber for high compression (not an issue in Blower motors) and it's heavy/complex (and not very mechanically efficient in terms of rocker ratios) valvetrain.


WIZE

World's Quickest Diahatsu Rocky (??) 414" Stroker Small block Mopar Powered. 10.84 @ 123...and gettin' quicker!

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Re: Hemi Vs Wedge Debate [Re: RemCharger] #176849
12/28/08 05:53 PM
12/28/08 05:53 PM
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Kalispell Mt.
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HotRodDave Offline
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I think the reason there is so much goin on is because of how loos someone interprets the rules of what is a Hemi or what is a wedge. If the wedge has to have in line un canted valves to be a wedge than the Hemi has to have a hemispherically shaped chamber and two directly oposite valves. If you give one wiggle room you have to give the other some wiggle room. Call a predator a "wedge" than you have to call a hemi 99 a "hemi". If you want to use the new eddy hemi head then it would only be fair to compare it to the RPM or Victor wedge. If stock for stock head comparison then compare the Maxwedge to the street hemi head. Every equal comparison of heads the hemi will win the power strugle but the wedge is quite a bit cheaper, just ask Andy Mayes, he is not loaded with $$$ like some might assume and really knows how to make a wedge work so he don't need to spend the extra $$$ a hemi would require (BTW Andy is pretty cool guy in person)


I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!



Re: Hemi Vs Wedge Debate [Re: HotRodDave] #176850
12/28/08 07:34 PM
12/28/08 07:34 PM
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,256
Salisbury North Carolina
8secDart Offline
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Salisbury North Carolina
I have both, the Hemi is the most torque less wonder ever made.This is with a legal SS motor.Anything I did was a pain in the a$$ with the Hemi,change intakes had to change converters,change cam,change converters.The wedge gets my vote.But having a Hemi is like having a super model for a wife,people love to look.

Re: Hemi Vs Wedge Debate [Re: 8secDart] #176851
12/28/08 07:43 PM
12/28/08 07:43 PM
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 902
Mopar Lane,Mississippi
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67HEMI Offline
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Mopar Lane,Mississippi
As long as it is a Mopar I am ok with it. Just one question, how many all motor wedge cars that weigh 3320 or whatever SS/AH minimum is, have run 8.30's @ 157 with less than 440 inches? Not very many that I know of. They are either super light, have 500 plus inches,or have nitrous or forced induction.


'33 Plymouth 5 Window Coupe Blown Aluminum HEMI w/bolt ons (under construction) '69 Chrysler 300 Convertible 375 HP 440 '71 Plymouth Duster 360 W/EFI (Wife's Ride) '12 Ram MegaCab Dually 6.7 Cummins
Re: Hemi Vs Wedge Debate [Re: 67HEMI] #176852
12/28/08 07:52 PM
12/28/08 07:52 PM
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,256
Salisbury North Carolina
8secDart Offline
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Salisbury North Carolina
How many people have 40-60 large ones to put in a motor............I have one and they are the biggest POS I have ever had.I know a person could run as fast with a small wedge if they sent that kind of money.

Re: Hemi Vs Wedge Debate [Re: 67HEMI] #176853
12/28/08 08:00 PM
12/28/08 08:00 PM
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Posts: 614
Michigan
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Michigan
Quote:

As long as it is a Mopar I am ok with it. Just one question, how many all motor wedge cars that weigh 3320 or whatever SS/AH minimum is, have run 8.30's @ 157 with less than 440 inches? Not very many that I know of. They are either super light, have 500 plus inches,or have nitrous or forced induction.






And that's using a production head. Ofcourse some wedges using current "racing" heads come close. And as others have said, the Hemi is way more of a pain in the [Edited by Moparts - Keep it clean] than a wedge. The wedge is also much cheaper.

Knowing all of that, I still am building a 572" Hemi for my Belvedere. I have a love for them that transends cost or difficulty.


'65 Belvedere
'68 GTX
'57 Dodge pickup
Re: Hemi Vs Wedge Debate [Re: Al_Alguire] #176854
12/28/08 08:15 PM
12/28/08 08:15 PM
Joined: Nov 2004
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Norwich CT USA
Defbob Offline
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Quote:

Seems pretty simple. If the hemi was the be all and end all of naturally aspirated engines they would be ruling the heads up classes of the world. I think we can all agree that they do not do that.




funny, alot of n/a heads up classes ban the Hemi. I wonder why

Re: Hemi Vs Wedge Debate [Re: HotRodDave] #176855
12/28/08 08:32 PM
12/28/08 08:32 PM
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Oakland, MI
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dizuster Offline
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Quote:

A hemi port does not have to be huge to flow like crazy, look at the new version hemi for proof, ports are no bigger than a SB head but can easily flow way over 300cfm like a heavily ported W2.




Huh? A factory Hemi port is 1.84" x 2.00", thats 3.68 in^2. My fullly ported w9's are only 1.4" x 2.2" that's 3.08 in^2. My heads are 20% less port size then the hemi, and they flow about the same if not better...

(stock hemi port we're talking of course...)

The hemi head probably has the biggest port ever produced aside from the ford tunnel port stuff or a Ram Air 5...

Re: Hemi Vs Wedge Debate [Re: Defbob] #176856
12/28/08 08:32 PM
12/28/08 08:32 PM
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Norwich CT USA
Defbob Offline
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To put something simple, I don't think a max effort Wedge (B1 or Predator heads) can out run a max effort Hemi (lets say with Millenium Heads). Most Hemi's I've seen, other than S/S Hemi's are not set on kill. Probably because the owner doesn't want to risk blowing the motor up. and they seem to run with the "set on Kill" mopar wedges. most people with Chevies, fords and mopar wedges don't seem to have the fear taking the risk of pushing their motors to their limits. Personally, I would have a fear of pushing my motor too far, despite having a bryant crank, oliver rods and a dual cross bolted block. I just can't afford to risk having to buy those parts all over again. if I had more cash I would go for it. Even Darren's motor is not at its full potential. SS Hemi's have larger cams than his. He designed his motor to fit a certain competition.

Just imagine what SS hemi's could make if they were allowed a lighter rotating assembly. or if they threw on a set of ported Millenium heads?

Re: Hemi Vs Wedge Debate [Re: Defbob] #176857
12/28/08 09:01 PM
12/28/08 09:01 PM
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long island NY
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the 440 wedge was never meant to be what the 426 hemi is

the block is weak
2 bolt mains
small port heads

if the max wedge moter was built past 1964 the maxwedge head would have improved , instead it was dropped to build the 426 hemi


as migthy as the hemi is

the wedge head stands beside it

two diffrent engines

compare the 426 hemi to fords 427 - 429 hemi


1.39 9.85 - 137 mph
Re: Hemi Vs Wedge Debate [Re: Ari440] #176858
12/28/08 09:06 PM
12/28/08 09:06 PM
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,209
Fredericktown, PA 15333
maundmotorworks Offline
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If I've said it once, I've said it a million times: There are Hemis and then there's everything else...


Maund Motorworks--supplier of high performance Mopar engines--specializing in B, RB, and Hemi. www.maundmotorworks.com
Re: Hemi Vs Wedge Debate [Re: maundmotorworks] #176859
12/28/08 09:28 PM
12/28/08 09:28 PM
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Posts: 3,619
Norwich CT USA
Defbob Offline
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Hemi's will always be #1

let's see a conventional headed wedge make as much power as a conventional Hemi. can't be done. only Pro Stock style wedges can compete

Re: Hemi Vs Wedge Debate [Re: dizuster] #176860
12/28/08 10:21 PM
12/28/08 10:21 PM
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nc
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moeflo Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

A hemi port does not have to be huge to flow like crazy, look at the new version hemi for proof, ports are no bigger than a SB head but can easily flow way over 300cfm like a heavily ported W2.




Huh? A factory Hemi port is 1.84" x 2.00", thats 3.68 in^2. My fully ported w9's are only 1.4" x 2.2" that's 3.08 in^2. My heads are 20% less port size then the hemi, and they flow about the same if not better...

(stock hemi port we're talking of course...)

The hemi head probably has the biggest port ever produced aside from the ford tunnel port stuff or a Ram Air 5...




Huh? A stock 426 port has less area than a BBC rectangle port, Boss 302/351/429 or Ford SCJ as well as the ones you mentioned. Normally I don't compare flow rates between OE and race heads, but if thats allowable, a 6.1 hemi can flow around 400 CFM with a 2-1/8th valve.

Re: Hemi Vs Wedge Debate [Re: 67HEMI] #176861
12/28/08 10:41 PM
12/28/08 10:41 PM

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Quote:

As long as it is a Mopar I am ok with it. Just one question, how many all motor wedge cars that weigh 3320 or whatever SS/AH minimum is, have run 8.30's @ 157 with less than 440 inches? Not very many that I know of. They are either super light, have 500 plus inches,or have nitrous or forced induction.




It might be very interesting to drop a 438 fully preped Max wedge motor in a SS/AH car..Of course use a sheet metal intake...Those cars have more tricks, ie.. suspension, trans/converter, weight disturbution than most would belive...The hemi would be faster due to the better factory heads..
I would bet the wedge would be well into the 8's as well

Re: Hemi Vs Wedge Debate [Re: dizuster] #176862
12/28/08 11:31 PM
12/28/08 11:31 PM
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Kalispell Mt.
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HotRodDave Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

A hemi port does not have to be huge to flow like crazy, look at the new version hemi for proof, ports are no bigger than a SB head but can easily flow way over 300cfm like a heavily ported W2.




Huh? A factory Hemi port is 1.84" x 2.00", thats 3.68 in^2. My fullly ported w9's are only 1.4" x 2.2" that's 3.08 in^2. My heads are 20% less port size then the hemi, and they flow about the same if not better...

(stock hemi port we're talking of course...)

The hemi head probably has the biggest port ever produced aside from the ford tunnel port stuff or a Ram Air 5...




Funny I said "new hemi and W2" and you come up with "old hemi and W9" I don't know if a max ported W2 can flow 400 CFM but a ported 6.1 hemi head will and there not too far different in size, as best info as I can find on port size the W2 port is bigger. A more apropriate comparo would be the Max effort 6.1 Vs a max effort W8 assumeing you can get an aproprite displacement and or valve train for high RPM the hemi will make more power.


I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!



Re: Hemi Vs Wedge Debate [Re: HotRodDave] #176863
12/29/08 08:15 AM
12/29/08 08:15 AM
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nc
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moeflo Offline
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I don't think the most jaded wedge fan will attempt an argument regarding flow per area. A well ported 6.1 will have a better flow coefficient than an all out race wedge head. And, thats still an OE casting.
I've been told,and have read how the 426 has this inefficient cumbersome valve train geometry that you just have to live with. I've got a buddy in Ga. who has much quality time with max lift Big Chiefs, Stage V hemis and Sonny's symmetrical heads. He tells me the Stage V had the most trouble free valve train of the bunch. It's noteworthy to mention that the rocker system for the Sonny's head was about the same price as the one for the hemi.
Not an argument to put one over the other. It's just to clear up some misconceptions that seem to follow hemis around.
The question was answered at the start of the thread. Run the one you like.

Re: Hemi Vs Wedge Debate [Re: moeflo] #176864
12/29/08 08:27 AM
12/29/08 08:27 AM
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Norwich CT USA
Defbob Offline
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Quote:

A popular misconception about the Hemi is that the valve train is trouble. I know that Pro Stock racer Warren Johnson has been a vocal critic of the Hemi and comments that with pushrods going this way and rocker arms going that way, it's not his idea of a promising configuration. Actually it is an extremely durable valvetrain. You've got alcohol dragsters running 10,500 rpm routinely and the parts last for years and years and years. I've got Stage V Engineering rocker arms on several competitive alcohol cars that are ten years old. I can't think of a better testament to the durability of the double rocker shaft design layout and validity Chrysler's execution.

- Eric Hansen



Re: Hemi Vs Wedge Debate [Re: HotRodDave] #176865
12/29/08 08:37 AM
12/29/08 08:37 AM
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nc
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moeflo Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I don't know if a max ported W2 can flow 400 CFM



I do, and the answer is "no way".



Quote:

Quote:

Quote:


but a ported 6.1 hemi head will and there not too far different in size, as best info as I can find on port size the W2 port is bigger. A more apropriate comparo would be the Max effort 6.1 Vs a max effort W8 assumeing you can get an aproprite displacement and or valve train for high RPM the hemi will make more power.




Two things other than the economy that are holding up race development of the 6.1. One is, it's not a Chevy. 30 minutes after the first LS motor hit the showroom, K Mart had several aftermarket head castings on the shelf. We're all used to that. Second, a 6.1 flow-wise takes a little more work to improve on than normal. The main weakness is the design and production of high lift valve trains. They will eventually come, but like a good 440 block, it will take a while. In the meantime, we'll keep hearing how a LS Chevy is sooooo amazing, how the LS motor is something revolutionary, etc., etc. But, when pressed, nobody can tell you exactly whats so revolutionary about them. But, we're used to that too.
Stuff like this is why I'm not so big into hemi vs. wedge debates. I'd just like to see what is hands-down the best new line of V8's get a little support in the market. But, being a Mopar guy at heart, I've learned patience. I don't like it, but I've learned it.

Re: Hemi Vs Wedge Debate [Re: moeflo] #176866
12/29/08 09:00 AM
12/29/08 09:00 AM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,910
Eighty Four, PA
B G Racing Offline
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Flow rates are for Chevys.Just look at the runners and direct entrance and exit design of a Hemi head,The only way to improve it is to decrease the size of the combustion chamber and get that big dome piston top out of the way.

Re: Hemi Vs Wedge Debate [Re: Ari440] #176867
12/29/08 09:57 AM
12/29/08 09:57 AM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 3,060
Western New York
sixpackbee Offline
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Quote:

the 440 wedge was never meant to be what the 426 hemi is



Amen to that. The 440 was an engine designed for dump trucks and Imperials. The Hemi was specificly designed for racing. That being said the 440 is pretty impressive that it was able to morph into a fairly good street/racing engine. As far as the Hemi/Wedge thing goes the Hemis have some inherient problmes with effciency. The surface to volume ratio is terrible. Very heavy and clumsy piston needed for any kind of compression and an Ardvark valve train with a huge amount of mass. Are they a better power maker? In pure form yes. Soley because of their pumping ability. The "modern" wedges are a much better choice overall though. Back in the day there was no better choice than a Hemi for max power levels or its abilty to deposit more cast iron on the race track in a weekend than any other engine.


1959 Bugeye Sprite
1967 Charger Black L code
1967 Coronet R/T Convert Green 440 auto bought from original owner
1968 Charger R/T Bronze 440 4 spd console AM/FM
1969 Super Bee WM21H B5 A40 D21 N96
1969 Barracuda Formula S 340 Convert pilot car
1969 Hemi Road Runner RM23J D32 Omaha orange 4.10 Dana N96 N85
1970 Super Bee WM23N FE5 V1X 3.91 axle package, N96
1970 Road Runner RM21N B3 V1X D13
1971 MG Midget
1971 Road Runner RM23H GW3, A57
1972 Road Runner RM23P FY1, D21
Re: Hemi Vs Wedge Debate [Re: moeflo] #176868
12/29/08 10:49 AM
12/29/08 10:49 AM
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Oakland, MI
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dizuster Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

A hemi port does not have to be huge to flow like crazy, look at the new version hemi for proof, ports are no bigger than a SB head but can easily flow way over 300cfm like a heavily ported W2.




Huh? A factory Hemi port is 1.84" x 2.00", thats 3.68 in^2. My fully ported w9's are only 1.4" x 2.2" that's 3.08 in^2. My heads are 20% less port size then the hemi, and they flow about the same if not better...

(stock hemi port we're talking of course...)

The hemi head probably has the biggest port ever produced aside from the ford tunnel port stuff or a Ram Air 5...




Huh? A stock 426 port has less area than a BBC rectangle port, Boss 302/351/429 or Ford SCJ as well as the ones you mentioned. Normally I don't compare flow rates between OE and race heads, but if thats allowable, a 6.1 hemi can flow around 400 CFM with a 2-1/8th valve.




Sorry I thought we were talking about 426 hemi heads not new stuff... I was just making a point that the original hemi was BIG, and that's why a 450 cfm port would make less torque down low then the smaller wedge port.

As for new hemi stuff no doubt it's good. But I haven't seen any 400cfm #'s anywhere, 370cfm maybe, but not 400... Who's doing those?

And by the way you're right, I never realized how freakin' big a 302 Boss head was!!! LOL...

Re: Hemi Vs Wedge Debate [Re: Steve1118] #176869
12/29/08 03:57 PM
12/29/08 03:57 PM
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Posts: 3,443
Northern N.J.
hemi_doug Offline
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Quote:

Bob Reed says: "There are two types of people in this world, those who have Hemis and those who want Hemis".

I couldn't say it better myself!




He is wrong...there are acually three types of people....the two you listed and add to that the ones who have blown them up....



71 440-6 4spd & 69 Hemi 4spd
Re: Hemi Vs Wedge Debate [Re: hemi_doug] #176870
12/29/08 04:23 PM
12/29/08 04:23 PM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 12,379
Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
Dragula Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

Bob Reed says: "There are two types of people in this world, those who have Hemis and those who want Hemis".

I couldn't say it better myself!




He is wrong...there are acually three types of people....the two you listed and add to that the ones who have blowen them up....




Been there....spensive...


'70 Cuda,...605 EFI Hemi Street Car (6.20 best pass, 1.33 60ft)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYw6RA-k5Bk (6.25 at 108.75mph from inside car)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zQEb9uxFng (6.25 at 108mph from outside car)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCvfzsC4NgM (9.9)

'66 Barracuda AWB Stretched nose Blown 440 Car in build stage

'71 Duster Drag Car 400 Low Deck 512 best 6.002 at 115.44mph
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Znuo3jMUXTk
Re: Hemi Vs Wedge Debate [Re: hemi_doug] #176871
12/29/08 04:49 PM
12/29/08 04:49 PM
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Walton's Mountain, Pa
Steve1118 Offline
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You know, I've been racing Hemis since the late 60's and had exactly one (1) engine failure. In 1983 a rod broke, bent a couple of valves and busted the block around the pan rail. We sleeved two cylinders, put new valves in two cylinders, welded the block and raced that motor again the next weekend. That motor raced unti 2004, only putting in rings and bearings every couple of years.

Don't give that unreliability crap. I've NEVER had a reliability problem, and I know that BG will tell you exactly the same thing. If someone does, it means they are overrevving it, which is totally unnecessary, or don't know what they are doing.


"Old age and treachery trumps youth and enthusiasm, every time!"

East Central Director / Chrysler Power Magazine

www.reasbeckracing.webs.com
Re: Hemi Vs Wedge Debate [Re: Dragula] #176872
12/29/08 07:06 PM
12/29/08 07:06 PM
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Posts: 3,443
Northern N.J.
hemi_doug Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Bob Reed says: "There are two types of people in this world, those who have Hemis and those who want Hemis".

I couldn't say it better myself!




He is wrong...there are acually three types of people....the two you listed and add to that the ones who have blowen them up....




Been there....spensive...




So have I...more times then I care to remember...

and blowen = blown....guess I blew that one...


Well Steve, I've lost one rod (stock), Had a valve float and dink a piston (bad spring), and now a valve seat drop out (MP aluminum heads).....So it's not just people over revving or not knowing what they are doing.

Last edited by hemi_doug; 12/29/08 07:13 PM.


71 440-6 4spd & 69 Hemi 4spd
Re: Hemi Vs Wedge Debate [Re: hemi_doug] #176873
12/29/08 08:53 PM
12/29/08 08:53 PM
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Walton's Mountain, Pa
Steve1118 Offline
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You seem to have had more problems than most have.

A stock rod breaking....that is possible, that is why we generally polish and grind the sidebeams. Are you sure a bearing didn't get tight?

As far as a bad spring....that is not even close to being the fault of engine design. Valve float is caused by overrevving it, the wrong spring for the application, or a faulty or worn out part. That is why you keep after that stuff in a race car. Any race car.....any type of engine.

You still are not going to convince me that a Hemi is an unreliable piece, if built and raced correctly. If not, no design will survive. I have forty years of racing them that says you are wrong.


"Old age and treachery trumps youth and enthusiasm, every time!"

East Central Director / Chrysler Power Magazine

www.reasbeckracing.webs.com
Re: Hemi Vs Wedge Debate [Re: B G Racing] #176874
12/29/08 09:32 PM
12/29/08 09:32 PM

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Quote:

Kind of getting off track for a Hemi vs Wedge topic. Let's go back to pinion angles and 8-3/4 rearends.




How much h.p do you beleive an 8 3/4's can take,auto,no t-brake slant 6 without n.o.s.
4200 lb car with 15" slicks

Re: Hemi Vs Wedge Debate [Re: Steve1118] #176875
12/29/08 09:39 PM
12/29/08 09:39 PM
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Northern N.J.
hemi_doug Offline
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Quote:

You seem to have had more problems than most have.

A stock rod breaking....that is possible, that is why we generally polish and grind the sidebeams. Are you sure a bearing didn't get tight?

As far as a bad spring....that is not even close to being the fault of engine design. Valve float is caused by overrevving it, the wrong spring for the application, or a faulty or worn out part. That is why you keep after that stuff in a race car. Any race car.....any type of engine.

You still are not going to convince me that a Hemi is an unreliable piece, if built and raced correctly. If not, no design will survive. I have forty years of racing them that says you are wrong.




No..the rod snapped, the big end still spins on the crank to this day...

The spring was borderline for the roller cam to begin with...took a chance and lost.

The seat was just plain old piss poor QA on the part of MP....


Oh...don't get me wrong...i'm not saying it totally unreliable...I've just had some bad luck. But I can tell you this is the most trouble I've had with a motor, and I've owned and thrashed many a wedge in the past....NEVER broke a rod before this stock Hemi one....on a stock build no less. So it does happen even to the best of engine designs.



71 440-6 4spd & 69 Hemi 4spd
Re: Hemi Vs Wedge Debate [Re: hemi_doug] #176876
12/29/08 11:18 PM
12/29/08 11:18 PM
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Bend,OR USA
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Cab_Burge Offline
I Win
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Bend,OR USA
The 426 Hemi was a compromise from day one, it is not a true Hemi design with the valves centered over the cylinders. Look at the intake valve location, the cylinder wall schrouds it. Now for my on those that have had them and those that want them, be careful of what you wish for, Hemiroids are not for everyone I've had them, sold them, still build them but I race a wedge I'm probally one of the only Mopar racers that can't make as much power with a hemi than I can with a wedge


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: Hemi Vs Wedge Debate [Re: hemi_doug] #176877
12/29/08 11:19 PM
12/29/08 11:19 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 398
Ohio
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Ohio
I can tell you this, in stock eliminator form, my wedge to my fathers hemi is about 100 HP less. That equals about 7 tenths in very similar cars. I believe it is all in the heads, intake, and holleys.

Jeff Day
Precision Automotive Machine, INC
Canton, Ohio

Re: Hemi Vs Wedge Debate [Re: jdfpam] #176878
12/30/08 07:21 AM
12/30/08 07:21 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,902
A shed in England
Tig Online work
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A shed in England
FWIW My buddy has a '70 gtx with an Indy headed 572 hemi. He runs a smaller cam (in the .690's to my .737) His car wieghs 200 lb less and runs 4:30's to my 4:10's. Both cars have 572ci, run 8 inch converters, single dominators, run on pump gas and have the same size and brand rear tyre. We both run caltracs and our 60ft are equal @ 1.39 best. He went 9.80 @ 139 and I went 9.79 @ 138.7 on the same day.
He hasn't bested that yet but I've since gone 9.71 @ 140. I think his car would pick up HP with a similar lift cam to mine, I would obviously run a better et at 200lb less and with 4:30 gears. I think these cars would still be pretty close given the above but I still rib him that I would be infront
When I first started out racing in '89, Hemi's were way expensive, you could build a higher HP wedge for the same money so I guess I've stuck with what I know. That having said a hemi does look really impressive in an engine bay but everyone expects a hemi to be quicker than a wedge.
Advantage wedge in my humble opinion


'74 Challenger..9.46 @ 145.9 1/4, 6.001 @ 118 1/8 so far. 4023lb !!! # N/A, Marsh performance 655ci, Indy Maxx, T/R, Indy 600-13 X's, Street legal, pump gas, full interior, Cal-Tracs, mufflers, 3:73's and real 10.5 radials.
9.51 @ 142.4 1/4, 6.003 @ 114 1/8 with our old mule KB, 572-13, 580 wedge.
RHD '68 Barracuda Fastback 323ci street/strip. Best ET 13.88 @ 99.03
Re: Hemi Vs Wedge Debate [Re: Tig] #176879
12/30/08 08:32 AM
12/30/08 08:32 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,932
Finalnd, Perkele
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jyrki Offline
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Finalnd, Perkele
I remember reading about Koffels creating the B1 engine, they ahd previously played with the Hemis, and according to that article their first B1 mule made 60 hp more than their best NHRA legal PS Hemi. I believe the last Hemi to qualify in NHRA PS was Reid Whistnant, maybe in 1987? When the rules changed I would have thought that Hemi would be The Choice in NHRA PS, but it wasn't competitive. The last one to try was Jeff Wick, he was usually about 0.3 seconds behind Alderman and his N...aturally aspirated B1. Hemi heads have the capability of flowing great, and if head flow is what you are lacking, then it's the key to producing more power. However, it is not so with all out smallish wedge engines. Current wedge heads flow well wnough, and the engines have volumetric efficiences in the 130% range. With that kind of volumetric efficiencies you don't benefit from better flow, other things become more important and the ones that will make the difference. In 1964 things were different, they needed flow and hte Hemi was the answer. Same is still true with "underheaded" engines, (usually very big displacement) engines with limited bore to stroke ratio. That's the only place where naturally aspirated Hemis still have an edge over even a conventional, modern Wedge like the W7,8&9's. If Hemi really were the answer, there would be nothing else.


Plynouth VIP '67 TT IC EFI
Re: Hemi Vs Wedge Debate [Re: jyrki] #176880
12/30/08 11:01 AM
12/30/08 11:01 AM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,866
North of Detroit
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I can admit that the Hemi isn't the answer for a heads up horsepower/dollar enviornment. But I like taking a unique motor and trying to do something with it. I think a big hemi has more character then a single 4 bbl wedge. However if i was doing a car that had the most horsepower / cube / dollar it wouldn't be a wedge. Id be in some tube chassis cobalt with chevy power.


In God we trust, all others pay cash. www.lightnens.com (Home of the world's fastest Paint Job)
Re: Hemi Vs Wedge Debate [Re: HemiDart68] #176881
12/30/08 08:34 PM
12/30/08 08:34 PM
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 247
nc
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nc
Quote:

I can admit that the Hemi isn't the answer for a heads up horsepower/dollar enviornment. But I like taking a unique motor and trying to do something with it. I think a big hemi has more character then a single 4 bbl wedge. However if i was doing a car that had the most horsepower / cube / dollar it wouldn't be a wedge. Id be in some tube chassis cobalt with chevy power.





If you define "the most horsepower / cube / dollar literally, as things currently stand you just gave yourself zero choice other than a Roberts/Kasse Ford hemi or a Sonny's hemi (cough)Chevy. Well past center on the hemi-side of the wedge-hemi scale.
Hemis, wedges, big and small blocks all have places where they shine. We can argue forever and that won't change.

Re: Hemi Vs Wedge Debate [Re: HemiDart68] #176882
12/30/08 08:48 PM
12/30/08 08:48 PM
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,825
Sk. Canada
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I wonder how much it would cost to put a wedge in the 4's?
Like the old saying goes"The Hemi turns on when everything else turns off"

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