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ZDDP article #1764020
02/26/15 11:37 PM
02/26/15 11:37 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,943
San Angelo, Texas, U.S.A.
1968RR Offline OP
top fuel
1968RR  Offline OP
top fuel

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,943
San Angelo, Texas, U.S.A.
A few months ago, I posted the results of a study in which the ZDDP contents of several motor oils were determined using neutron activation analysis (which is much more accurate than ICP-AES, the standard method used in industry). Anyway, a paper that includes the details of the study has been accepted for publication (Physics Procedia), but in the meantime, a pre-print version has been posted on arxiv.org:
http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1502/1502.07261.pdf
Most of it is written in pretty plain language, and I figured that it might be of interest to a few of you.


"When I'm in a slump, I comfort myself by saying if I believe in dinosaurs, then somewhere, they must be believing in me. And if they believe in me, then I can believe in me." - Mookie Wilson
Re: ZDDP article [Re: 1968RR] #1764021
02/27/15 12:10 AM
02/27/15 12:10 AM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,155
CT
GTX MATT Offline
master
GTX MATT  Offline
master

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,155
CT


Now I need to pin those needles, got to feel that heat
Hear my motor screamin while I'm tearin up the street
Re: ZDDP article [Re: 1968RR] #1764022
02/27/15 07:11 PM
02/27/15 07:11 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,892
Florida
Locomotion Offline
master
Locomotion  Offline
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Posts: 5,892
Florida
Interesting! Thank you.
I was disappointed that Amsoil wasn't mentioned. But I understand that there are limits to what is tested. Amsoil does advertise the zinc content in their racing and "muscle car" oils.

Amsoil tech bulliten - Zinc content

Re: ZDDP article [Re: Locomotion] #1764023
02/27/15 11:31 PM
02/27/15 11:31 PM
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 73
FL-USA
C
Chuck West Offline
member
Chuck West  Offline
member
C

Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 73
FL-USA
Outstanding information!
Much appreciated Scott and Myron!


Old Glory Automotive, Inc.
www.oldgloryauto.com
Re: ZDDP article [Re: 1968RR] #1764024
02/28/15 12:12 AM
02/28/15 12:12 AM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 685
pennsylvania
poboyengineering Offline
mopar
poboyengineering  Offline
mopar

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 685
pennsylvania
The most interesting part to me is the statement that levels over 1800ppm can have detrimental effects. Thank you for sharing all this info.


It may be ugly, but it sure is slow.

Girls comb their hair in rear view mirrors and the boys try to look so hard....
Re: ZDDP article [Re: 1968RR] #1764025
02/28/15 12:32 AM
02/28/15 12:32 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY Offline
Master
MR_P_BODY  Offline
Master

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
Thanks for the data..

Re: ZDDP article [Re: 1968RR] #1764026
02/28/15 12:41 AM
02/28/15 12:41 AM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 733
jacksonville,FLORIDA
slammedR/T Offline
super stock
slammedR/T  Offline
super stock

Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 733
jacksonville,FLORIDA
Very good info


2000 Dakota R/T, 408 magnum, 727, Indy heads
1000cfm 4150 carb, 93 octane fuel.
motor; 10.258 @ 132.78
200 shot; 9.262 @ 144.69
racemagnum
Re: ZDDP article [Re: slammedR/T] #1764027
02/28/15 02:37 AM
02/28/15 02:37 AM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 6,906
IL, Aurora
A
ademon Offline
master
ademon  Offline
master
A

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 6,906
IL, Aurora
Royal purple only 842????

Re: ZDDP article [Re: ademon] #1764028
02/28/15 02:58 AM
02/28/15 02:58 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,271
Vista, California
6
67Satty Offline
pro stock
67Satty  Offline
pro stock
6

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,271
Vista, California
The VR1 10W-30 is pretty close to what they claim at 1300.

Re: ZDDP article [Re: 67Satty] #1764029
02/28/15 04:26 AM
02/28/15 04:26 AM
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
72Swinger Offline
master
72Swinger  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
Mobil 1 0w40 and 15w50 both are in the 1000-1100 range last I checked also.


Mopar to the bone!!!
Re: ZDDP article [Re: 72Swinger] #1764030
02/28/15 04:47 AM
02/28/15 04:47 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,667
Arizona
C
Chris'sBarracuda Offline
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Chris'sBarracuda  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,667
Arizona
I thought this article was much more informative..

https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/


Chris..

Re: ZDDP article [Re: Chris'sBarracuda] #1764031
02/28/15 05:44 AM
02/28/15 05:44 AM
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
72Swinger Offline
master
72Swinger  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
That wear rating was very enlightening! Need to get me some 5w30 Pennz and some Prolong oil treatment!


Mopar to the bone!!!
Re: ZDDP article [Re: Chris'sBarracuda] #1764032
02/28/15 06:13 PM
02/28/15 06:13 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 6,906
IL, Aurora
A
ademon Offline
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ademon  Offline
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A

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 6,906
IL, Aurora
Quote:

I thought this article was much more informative..

https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/


Chris..



That's one h*ll of a list, looks like I'm doing good with my 10/30 VR1 though.

Re: ZDDP article [Re: ademon] #1764033
02/28/15 07:32 PM
02/28/15 07:32 PM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 3,210
robin hood country
deaks Offline
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deaks  Offline
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 3,210
robin hood country
After reading the article i googled prolong and this came up.

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct...bvm=bv.87269000,d.d2s


69 Dart GTS 440 mopar .590 cam, Edelbrock heads, 3200#
best et 6.45, 106.78, 10.14, 132.88 mph, 1.47 60ft
best 60ft 1.36
Re: ZDDP article [Re: deaks] #1764034
02/28/15 08:05 PM
02/28/15 08:05 PM
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,315
Ohio
J
jlatessa Offline
pro stock
jlatessa  Offline
pro stock
J

Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,315
Ohio
I'm a 10 W 30 VR-1 believer too!

Joe

Re: ZDDP article [Re: Chris'sBarracuda] #1764035
02/28/15 10:23 PM
02/28/15 10:23 PM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 6,516
Santa Cruz, California
L
Lefty Offline
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Lefty  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 6,516
Santa Cruz, California
Quote:

I thought this article was much more informative..

https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/


Chris..





Real eye opener if this guy is on the mark? Kinda tosses most diesel oil out the window. Cost per quart looks like Mobil 1 5W-30 Full Synthetic is the winner.

Re: ZDDP article [Re: Lefty] #1764036
03/01/15 05:33 PM
03/01/15 05:33 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,645
Phila. Pa.
Mattax Offline
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Mattax  Offline
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Posts: 1,645
Phila. Pa.
Quote:


Real eye opener if this guy is on the mark? Kinda tosses most diesel oil out the window. Cost per quart looks like Mobil 1 5W-30 Full Synthetic is the winner.




Scar test is just one of several indicators of actual in use performance to consider. Probably a more important test for greases than motor oil. Although I tip my hat to him for going through the trouble to do this test, there are questions about the control of his procedures, test environment and equipment. That doesn't mean they are or are not valid results, just we can't be sure.

"Choosing engine oil for Corvairs" by Widman is probably the most readable overview of motor characteristics. It covers viscosity, pour point, differences in base stocks, and a bit on additive packages. Read that and you'll have a much more complete view of motor oil performance.
Illustrated Pdf in English from his hobby pages http://www.widman.biz/Corvair/English/Links/Links.html or his business pages http://www.widman.biz/English/Selection/oil.html

Also on his websites are some other good papers on gear oils and case studies of failures he's had to deal with.

Re: ZDDP article [Re: 1968RR] #1764037
03/02/15 11:15 AM
03/02/15 11:15 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,260
Las Vegas NV
moparmanjames Offline
pro stock
moparmanjames  Offline
pro stock

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,260
Las Vegas NV
Quote:

I thought this article was much more informative..

https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/


Chris..





Edit: I quoted the wrong article earlier...

Excellent info but with most of the focus being on anti wear and cam break in but what about engine break in in general regarding proper ring seating?
Wouldn't synthetic be bad for ring seating?

Last edited by moparmanjames; 03/03/15 01:16 AM.
Re: ZDDP article [Re: jlatessa] #1764038
03/02/15 05:34 PM
03/02/15 05:34 PM
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,845
Tampa
D
DusterDave Offline
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DusterDave  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,845
Tampa
Quote:

I'm a 10 W 30 VR-1 believer too!

Joe



+3


Gone to the dark side with an LS3 powered '57 Chevy 210
Re: ZDDP article [Re: DusterDave] #1764039
03/02/15 07:44 PM
03/02/15 07:44 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,943
San Angelo, Texas, U.S.A.
1968RR Offline OP
top fuel
1968RR  Offline OP
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,943
San Angelo, Texas, U.S.A.
The primary goal of the research was really to see whether or not neutron activation analysis (NAA) was better for quality control purposes than the industry standard, ICP-AES. The uncertainties show that NAA is MUCH more accurate than ICP-AES. I understand that most oil manufacturers don't necessarily have regular access to a nuclear reactor, but ICP-AES is a really lousy way to determine additive concentrations (one guy that we worked with referred to ICP-AES as a "really expensive random number generator").
Which brings me to the 540 Rat blog article...
The guy seems to know what he's doing. As he points out, a "Mechanical Engineer is clearly the most qualified Engineer to test motor oil" (but evidently not the most qualified engineer to know the difference between proper nouns and regular ol' nouns ). The only problems I have with his data:
1. He doesn't provide any uncertainties anywhere. Seriously, numbers without uncertainties are meaningless. If you don't believe me, I'll sell you my 100,000,000 hp 2002 Ram for $100,000 cash (note: +/- 99,999,775 hp). You never know, it could have 199,999,775 hp and be a good deal...
2. The other problem is this statement:
"The ppm (parts per million) quantities of zinc, phosphorus, moly and in some cases titanium, shown in the ranking list below, are taken directly from the Lab Reports that came back from the Professional Lab 'ALS Tribology' in Sparks, Nevada. Some oils have MORE ZINC than phosphorus, while other oils have MORE PHOSPHORUS than zinc. It just depends on the particular oil’s formulation. Either way, the numbers below are correct and are NOT typos."
The ppm data are mass fractions. Because zinc is ONLY added to oils in the form of ZDDPs (while the phosphorus in oils can be from a variety of molecules) and because ZDDPs always have a 2:1 phosphorus atom to zinc atom ratio, the phosphorus to zinc ppm ratios should never be less than [(30.97*2)/65.39]=0.947. It's pretty basic chemistry. If you take a look at his measurements for "5W30 Joe Gibbs Driven LS30 Performance Motor Oil, synthetic," for example, you can see that the ratio is 1496/1610=0.929. What does this mean? That his data (or the data that he got from ALS Tribology) has some really high uncertainties.
That said, there's a lot more to a good motor oil than ZDDP-content. The best way to measure the quality of a motor oil is through mechanical tests, which is exactly what the guy who wrote the 540 Rat blog article does.


"When I'm in a slump, I comfort myself by saying if I believe in dinosaurs, then somewhere, they must be believing in me. And if they believe in me, then I can believe in me." - Mookie Wilson
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