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Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 [Re: p d'ro] #1756914
02/19/15 10:37 PM
02/19/15 10:37 PM
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Florida
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mopar346 Offline
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A half second is huge in the quarter mile.


Careful, your character's showing!
Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 [Re: p d'ro] #1756915
02/19/15 10:49 PM
02/19/15 10:49 PM
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JohnRR Offline
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Quote:


My carb is in new condition. The trouble is sending off the stock Carter to Scott and spending the 400 dollars to restore it, then either going without an electric choke or trying to track down all of the choke stove parts. Not exactly a few minutes. Probably juice noy worth the squeeze? Money probably better spent in gear or heads?




2 differences in your AFB vs. the newer AVS, first is the inlet diameter, carb horn, is smaller ... flow restriction , second is the base plate pattern is smaller meaning a tighter mounting base and I am pretty sure a slight restriction there also. If you are stuck on the cast iron boat anchor intake then switch it to the 68/69.

As far as the electric choke, you can put it on the carter fairly easily , I'm sure Scott has done is many times ...

If it were me I'd get a Thunder series 650 and try that first , it'll be worlds better than the Performer 750 and you'll have a little better throttle response ... it may not do anything for your top end though ??? But how often are you at 5000 plus rpm ???

Last edited by JohnRR; 02/20/15 02:54 PM.
Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 [Re: JohnRR] #1756916
02/19/15 11:22 PM
02/19/15 11:22 PM
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Prospect, PA
BSB67 Offline
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Quote:

Quote:


My carb is in new condition. The trouble is sending off the stock Carter to Scott and spending the 400 dollars to restore it, then either going without an electric choke or trying to track down all of the choke stove parts. Not exactly a few minutes. Probably juice noy worth the squeeze? Money probably better spent in gear or heads?




2 differences in your AFB vs. the newer AVS, first is the inlet diameter, carb horn, is smaller ... flow restriction , second is the base plate pattern is smaller meaning a tighter mounting base and I am pretty sure a slight restriction there also. If you are stock on the cast iron boat anchor intake then switch it to the 68/68.

As far as the electric choke, you can put it on the carter fairly easily , I'm sure Scott has done is many times ...

If it were me I'd get a Thunder series 650 and try that first , it'll be worlds better than the Performer 750 and you'll have a little better throttle response ... it may not do anything for your top end though ??? But how often are you at 5000 plus rpm ???




67 hp intake is the same as the 68.

The cross sectional area would suggest that the air horn is not a restriction. Probably an effect at some point due to the transition into the throttle bores, but not likely at this performance level.

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 [Re: BSB67] #1756917
02/20/15 12:09 AM
02/20/15 12:09 AM
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Graham, WA
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Polarapete Offline
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Probably the cheapest thing you can do to your 440 powered car that would result in all around best performance would be a smaller cfm four barrel with the electric choke you want so much. We always over carburet our street rides to our dismay.

"but will it perform significantly better than the Eddy 750"

A lot of carbs will do better than the Edelbrock 750cfm #1407 including the smaller versions like their 600cfm #1406 if it is jetted up for performance. I have used both on a mild 440 and the 600cfm gave much better throttle response with a stock converter and gears. Not to mention improved mileage. You could take the metering rods and jets out of the #1407 or any Carter AFB and swap them into the #1406 and avoid paying for the #1487 tuning kit to get the same effect. The #1406 is jetted for economy to begin with and just changing the metering rods makes a big difference. A new #1406 is available all over for less than $325.00


1986 Dodge Ramcharger 440 2wd, Bracket Racer Under Construction
1998 Ram 2500 QuadCab, new daily driver.
2008 Honda Element
2014 Carry-On 7x14 Cargo Trailer
Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 [Re: Polarapete] #1756918
02/20/15 01:05 AM
02/20/15 01:05 AM
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MD
p d'ro Offline OP
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I might just try the 650. I had a motor with a performer and different heads but wanted the correct c440hp motor and stock air cleaner to fit under hood so here I am. Underhood looks awesome so want performance to match..

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 [Re: Polarapete] #1756919
02/20/15 01:32 AM
02/20/15 01:32 AM
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Canada
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Can the problems of the 1407 be corrected or is it an insurmountable design flaw?

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 [Re: WO23Coronet] #1756920
02/20/15 02:58 AM
02/20/15 02:58 AM
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Posts: 5,155
CT
GTX MATT Offline
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Quote:

Can the problems of the 1407 be corrected or is it an insurmountable design flaw?




Depends on who you ask, but it seems to but an insurmountable design flaw


Now I need to pin those needles, got to feel that heat
Hear my motor screamin while I'm tearin up the street
Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 [Re: GTX MATT] #1756921
02/20/15 03:24 AM
02/20/15 03:24 AM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,177
Someplace you aren't
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SomeCarGuy Offline
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I dont know what those carb numbers make them, but you could rebuild one yourself for way less than 400 bucks. If you are wanting it spiffied up for show, it would still be dollars ahead to run it after a rebuild and see if it does what you want. I sure wouldn't buy a smaller carb new to try. A 750 is right for a 383 and definitely for a 440. I happen to like the carter carbs a lot. A 3310 is sweet but the carter design and function is right there and is easier to work with imo on a fine tune. Except the 750 eddy, which is just a POS any way you slice it.

I dont know about your intake other than i ditch the stock ones right away. You might look into a performer not performer rpm version or similar and paint and grind the outside to look more like stock. IIRC those are low enough to clear very close to stock and still work much better along with losing the weight.

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 [Re: SomeCarGuy] #1756922
02/20/15 10:44 AM
02/20/15 10:44 AM
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MD
p d'ro Offline OP
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Quote:

I dont know what those carb numbers make them, but you could rebuild one yourself for way less than 400 bucks. If you are wanting it spiffied up for show, it would still be dollars ahead to run it after a rebuild and see if it does what you want. I sure wouldn't buy a smaller carb new to try. A 750 is right for a 383 and definitely for a 440. I happen to like the carter carbs a lot. A 3310 is sweet but the carter design and function is right there and is easier to work with imo on a fine tune. Except the 750 eddy, which is just a POS any way you slice it.

I dont know about your intake other than i ditch the stock ones right away. You might look into a performer not performer rpm version or similar and paint and grind the outside to look more like stock. IIRC those are low enough to clear very close to stock and still work much better along with losing the weight.



ok, maybe I had the RPM before. I wasn't aware that they had a low profile intake. Maybe in the spring I Will swap the intake, heads and carb. That is something I can do myself (never done heads) hopefully. Just have to study if I can keep the same pushrods and the best stock looking aluminum head for the application, leaving room for more performance later if needed.

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 [Re: JohnRR] #1756923
02/20/15 11:31 AM
02/20/15 11:31 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
Mr.Yuck Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

When it warms up I'll try and get by and help ya.




But it doesn't have a Holley ???




Funny, I've used and have worked on other brands Johnny boy. P'dro Se if you can find a CH4B intake. If you grind the Edelbrock off and paint it blue 95% of people won't know it's not stock. And the Factory air cleaner assembly will fit under the hood. As for the Eddy 750 It should be tunable enough to boil the tires and drive around town w/o getting embarrassed. The problem I've had with them is at the 1/4 mile, they just seem to fall off at 3/4 track where a Holley keeps pulling. That said I do like the factory Carters if you have one buy a rebuild kit and try it on the car.

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 [Re: Mr.Yuck] #1756924
02/20/15 11:37 AM
02/20/15 11:37 AM
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Florida
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mopar346 Offline
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I stil think you need to identify the issue you have now before you through an upper end at it. If you don't fix it, it may be there after all the money and effort.


Careful, your character's showing!
Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 [Re: mopar346] #1756925
02/20/15 12:05 PM
02/20/15 12:05 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,584
MD
p d'ro Offline OP
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Quote:

I stil think you need to identify the issue you have now before you through an upper end at it. If you don't fix it, it may be there after all the money and effort.




As much of a pain as it is, I will do a compression test when it warms up a little. 1°F here in DC Metro today! Crazy. I will also change oil and cut open filter to see if there are any chunks from when I had the knocking sound. It ran the same before that incident so I don't think that was the issue, although I never found out what it was.
Maybe I am better off taking a chance on one of these nice used motors on Moparts. There seem to be a few 440s that would be nice. Ok, kidding, but it may be in the cards some day.

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 [Re: p d'ro] #1756926
02/20/15 02:16 PM
02/20/15 02:16 PM
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Wichita
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GY3 Offline
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My carb hierarchy:

Edelbrock: Good for drivability and around town. Down on horsepower when compared to other brands.

Holley: 3310 750cfm vacuum secondary used to be my default carb for a mild street 440. They make good power and get good mileage almost out of the box. I've gotten 14mpg on the highway at 70mph with 3.23's and ran 13.5's at 104mph with a VERY mild combo, stock intake and horrible 60 ft. time. 9.5:1 CR.

Demon: Yes, they had quality control issues there for a while when Barry Grant still owned them (metal shavings) but they are a good carb. I got ahold of a Speed Demon and it's starts and idles when cold much easier than the Holley. According to some of the dyno tests in the archives it flows better and makes more power than all but the best aftermarket carbs as well. I'm very happy with it and wished I'd tried one sooner!

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 [Re: BSB67] #1756927
02/20/15 02:57 PM
02/20/15 02:57 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,905
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR Offline
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JohnRR  Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

Quote:


My carb is in new condition. The trouble is sending off the stock Carter to Scott and spending the 400 dollars to restore it, then either going without an electric choke or trying to track down all of the choke stove parts. Not exactly a few minutes. Probably juice noy worth the squeeze? Money probably better spent in gear or heads?




2 differences in your AFB vs. the newer AVS, first is the inlet diameter, carb horn, is smaller ... flow restriction , second is the base plate pattern is smaller meaning a tighter mounting base and I am pretty sure a slight restriction there also. If you are stock on the cast iron boat anchor intake then switch it to the 68/68.

As far as the electric choke, you can put it on the carter fairly easily , I'm sure Scott has done is many times ...

If it were me I'd get a Thunder series 650 and try that first , it'll be worlds better than the Performer 750 and you'll have a little better throttle response ... it may not do anything for your top end though ??? But how often are you at 5000 plus rpm ???




67 hp intake is the same as the 68.

The cross sectional area would suggest that the air horn is not a restriction. Probably an effect at some point due to the transition into the throttle bores, but not likely at this performance level.




You are right, just checked and 67-69 is the same intake, I thought all the AFB's had the narrow base pattern.

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 [Re: GTX MATT] #1756928
02/20/15 03:00 PM
02/20/15 03:00 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,905
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

Can the problems of the 1407 be corrected or is it an insurmountable design flaw?




Depends on who you ask, but it seems to but an insurmountable design flaw




I wouldn't call it insurmountable ... assuming one doesn't mind spending hours and hours with a wideband , taking the carb on and off , drilling passages , etc ...

I wouldn't be surprised if by just changing the carb to something that is NOT a performer 750 wakes the car up?

The performer 440 intake is basically the same height as the stock iron and weighs probably 20 lbs less , the CH4B is about a 1/2" taller but should have no issue clearing the hood , the one problem with most aftermarket intakes is they think everyone is running dual feed side hung holleys and move the coil mount to the drivers side.

The best intake for an very close to stock look in the OLD Mopar M1 dual plane, it's a copy of the 1970 iron intake in alum.

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 [Re: GY3] #1756929
02/20/15 03:09 PM
02/20/15 03:09 PM
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Posts: 1,584
MD
p d'ro Offline OP
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MD
Quote:

My carb hierarchy:

Edelbrock: Good for drivability and around town. Down on horsepower when compared to other brands.

Holley: 3310 750cfm vacuum secondary used to be my default carb for a mild street 440. They make good power and get good mileage almost out of the box. I've gotten 14mpg on the highway at 70mph with 3.23's and ran 13.5's at 104mph with a VERY mild combo, stock intake and horrible 60 ft. time. 9.5:1 CR.

Demon: Yes, they had quality control issues there for a while when Barry Grant still owned them (metal shavings) but they are a good carb. I got ahold of a Speed Demon and it's starts and idles when cold much easier than the Holley. According to some of the dyno tests in the archives it flows better and makes more power than all but the best aftermarket carbs as well. I'm very happy with it and wished I'd tried one sooner!




Good info. I will be lazy and ask if the Holley 3310 needs an adapter for the stock iron intake or the Eddy CH4B? I assume it does..
Also, I have never blocked off the hot air crossover on my steel intakes, but will I need to on an Aluminum one? Probably definitely with the Eddy, right? There is a CH4B on ebay now that has the crossover welded shut already.

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 [Re: p d'ro] #1756930
02/20/15 03:13 PM
02/20/15 03:13 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,905
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR Offline
I Win
JohnRR  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2003
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Quote:

Quote:

My carb hierarchy:

Edelbrock: Good for drivability and around town. Down on horsepower when compared to other brands.

Holley: 3310 750cfm vacuum secondary used to be my default carb for a mild street 440. They make good power and get good mileage almost out of the box. I've gotten 14mpg on the highway at 70mph with 3.23's and ran 13.5's at 104mph with a VERY mild combo, stock intake and horrible 60 ft. time. 9.5:1 CR.

Demon: Yes, they had quality control issues there for a while when Barry Grant still owned them (metal shavings) but they are a good carb. I got ahold of a Speed Demon and it's starts and idles when cold much easier than the Holley. According to some of the dyno tests in the archives it flows better and makes more power than all but the best aftermarket carbs as well. I'm very happy with it and wished I'd tried one sooner!




Good info. I will be lazy and ask if the Holley 3310 needs an adapter for the stock iron intake or the Eddy CH4B? I assume it does..
Also, I have never blocked off the hot air crossover on my steel intakes, but will I need to on an Aluminum one? Probably definitely with the Eddy, right? There is a CH4B on ebay now that has the crossover welded shut already.




you need a SPACER for a holley on a 67-69 stock intake but not on the CH4B , blocking the crossover is a good idea considering how easy the gas boils , but not necessary. You can just run a valley pan that is blocked.

Last edited by JohnRR; 02/21/15 05:21 PM.
Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 [Re: JohnRR] #1756931
02/20/15 03:14 PM
02/20/15 03:14 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,584
MD
p d'ro Offline OP
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MD
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Can the problems of the 1407 be corrected or is it an insurmountable design flaw?




Depends on who you ask, but it seems to but an insurmountable design flaw




I wouldn't call it insurmountable ... assuming one doesn't mind spending hours and hours with a wideband , taking the carb on and off , drilling passages , etc ...

I wouldn't be surprised if by just changing the carb to something that is NOT a performer 750 wakes the car up?

The performer 440 intake is basically the same height as the stock iron and weighs probably 20 lbs less , the CH4B is about a 1/2" taller but should have no issue clearing the hood , the one problem with most aftermarket intakes is they think everyone is running dual feed side hung holleys and move the coil mount to the drivers side.

The best intake for an very close to stock look in the OLD Mopar M1 dual plane, it's a copy of the 1970 iron intake in alum.




My stock air cleaner is already putting a little mark in the under hood insulation. Once I didn't realize that I unseated the air cleaner stud a few threads and dinged my hood when closing! Luckily the paint didn't crack. I have no room! So the CH4B is taller? Should I block the crossover of the M1?

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 [Re: p d'ro] #1756932
02/20/15 06:19 PM
02/20/15 06:19 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,584
MD
p d'ro Offline OP
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Ok, I might have a line on a barely used Holley SD dual plane and Holley 650 vac sec. I am hoping that will fit and wont have the same fuel boil issues a Eddy does.. Was also told that 440 source had good heads that look stock when painted turquoise...

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 [Re: p d'ro] #1756933
02/20/15 06:34 PM
02/20/15 06:34 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
Mr.Yuck Offline
Not enough dumb comments...yet
Mr.Yuck  Offline
Not enough dumb comments...yet

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
Quote:

Ok, I might have a line on a barely used Holley SD dual plane and Holley 650 vac sec. I am hoping that will fit and wont have the same fuel boil issues a Eddy does.. Was also told that 440 source had good heads that look stock when painted turquoise...




easy killer lets fix what you have now 1st. EVEN with that carb it should run pretty well. Does the SD have the stock coil mount location?

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