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Bellhousing #1754555
02/14/15 07:37 PM
02/14/15 07:37 PM
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Ontario Canada
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How can a bellhousing be off centre by 1/16" or more ? Have get one of those dials meters, and get this figured out. , pain

Re: Bellhousing [Re: 300_dup5] #1754556
02/14/15 07:46 PM
02/14/15 07:46 PM
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Ohio
Dan Brewer Offline
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Have you checked w dial indicator or are you guessing?


A833 4-speeds, parts & services
http://www.brewersperformance.com/
Re: Bellhousing [Re: Dan Brewer] #1754557
02/14/15 07:56 PM
02/14/15 07:56 PM
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Ontario Canada
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I have to get a dial indicator, just a measurement with measure
Had new clutch in, new bell on
Tried to fit 833 in, no way. Stopped about 1/4" from going in
It did start into new pilot bushing
Took it all apart ( after using one of those plastic tools
Got a steel input shaft, and this is where I'm at

Re: Bellhousing [Re: 300_dup5] #1754558
02/14/15 08:13 PM
02/14/15 08:13 PM
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up yours
Supercuda Offline
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Wonder why you think the bellhousing is off.

More likely you do not have the clutch disc centered up.

I usually install the clutch, PP and bellhousing with the clutch fork and whatnot all set up, slide the trans in as far as it will go and if it will not completely go in have someone step on the clutch pedal and it'll release the pressure plate allowing the disc to center up.


They say there are no such thing as a stupid question.
They say there is always the exception that proves the rule.
Don't be the exception.
Re: Bellhousing [Re: 300_dup5] #1754559
02/14/15 08:33 PM
02/14/15 08:33 PM
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Quote:

I have to get a dial indicator, just a measurement with measure
Had new clutch in, new bell on
Tried to fit 833 in, no way. Stopped about 1/4" from going in
It did start into new pilot bushing
Took it all apart ( after using one of those plastic tools
Got a steel input shaft, and this is where I'm at



The final 1/4 inch of travel is usually the front bearing retainer lip not entering into the bellhousing correctly Let us know what you find out, maybe you have the large bearing retainer and the small hole bellhousing Good luck BTW, one of the easest fixes on that deal is to have the bearing retainer O.D. turn down to the proper size, unless you have a 18 spline NP 833 instead of the 23 spline tranny


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: Bellhousing [Re: 300_dup5] #1754560
02/14/15 08:39 PM
02/14/15 08:39 PM
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Rittman Ohio
fourgearsavoy Offline
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So the this particular engine always has a 4-speed bolted to it right? Is this bellhousing the only new part in the equation? Does the input bearing retainer fit the bellhousing?
I have a special tool that another member here made from my drawings and it works much better than a magnetic base on the crank. I have a pic of it on my laptop I can post later

Gus

8429252-mysavoy.jpg (83 downloads)

64 Plymouth Savoy
493 Indy EZ's by Nick at Compu-Flow
5-Speed Richmond faceplate Liberty box
Dana 60
Re: Bellhousing [Re: fourgearsavoy] #1754561
02/14/15 09:43 PM
02/14/15 09:43 PM
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New bell, new clutch new everything, Engine was not 4 speed before
I had everything bolted up, went to slide trans in and input shaft retainer on new trans actually was hitting side of bell hole, not allowing it to go any further.
Took bell off, clutch out, got a steel input shaft off another 833 , slide in perfect into crank and pilot sleeve
Put bell back on ( no clutch) and tried again , goes in fine ( the steel 833 input shaft does not have retainer on end)
Just doing some rough measurments from shaft to bell on both sides , shows its off about 1/16". Whatever that maybe in thousandths
If I hold shaft over to one side it's much better, but you can feel the resistance when turned
Got to get a dial indicator
I slide my finger down left side, down right side a little resistance
??? Maybe a good shot on right side of pinion shaft would straighten it ( just kidding

Re: Bellhousing [Re: 300_dup5] #1754562
02/14/15 09:56 PM
02/14/15 09:56 PM
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ahy Offline
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Sounds like it would be a good idea to get the dial indicator set up to indicate on the transmission mounting bore on the bell housing.

The factory dialed in the bell with the particular block... mixing and matching parts later can get you off quite a bit. Worst are some steel bells.

I do it by mounting strip steel on the flywheel or crank flange and bend cold to get the dial indicator in the right spot. Offset dowels as needed to get it dialed in. <.003" preferred, .005" max runnout.

Re: Bellhousing [Re: 300_dup5] #1754563
02/14/15 10:01 PM
02/14/15 10:01 PM
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Rittman Ohio
fourgearsavoy Offline
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So the transmission bolts right in without the clutch Well you should check it anyway so if it's off that far it won't be easy to fix.
Here's a pic of my alignment tool.
What kind of bellhousing is it?
Gus


64 Plymouth Savoy
493 Indy EZ's by Nick at Compu-Flow
5-Speed Richmond faceplate Liberty box
Dana 60
Re: Bellhousing [Re: fourgearsavoy] #1754564
02/14/15 10:09 PM
02/14/15 10:09 PM
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Ontario Canada
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Trans doesn't bolt up, spare trans spline ( without retainer on it) does
Got it from Mancini. Aluminum, No clutch in it at this time

Last edited by 300; 02/14/15 10:12 PM.
Re: Bellhousing [Re: 300_dup5] #1754565
02/14/15 10:16 PM
02/14/15 10:16 PM
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Rittman Ohio
fourgearsavoy Offline
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If it won't even bolt up without the clutch then something is off further than I've ever seen before. So the tranny bolts up to the bell when it's not attached to the engine right? And the crank is drilled deep enough to accept the input pilot.
Gus


64 Plymouth Savoy
493 Indy EZ's by Nick at Compu-Flow
5-Speed Richmond faceplate Liberty box
Dana 60
Re: Bellhousing [Re: fourgearsavoy] #1754566
02/14/15 10:51 PM
02/14/15 10:51 PM
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Ontario Canada
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Yes Trans bolts up to bell when off motor
Crank is deep enough. Checked those
Pilot bushing is good. ?

Re: Bellhousing [Re: 300_dup5] #1754567
02/14/15 11:03 PM
02/14/15 11:03 PM
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Ohio
Dan Brewer Offline
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Have you bolted bell and trans to engine w no clutch?


A833 4-speeds, parts & services
http://www.brewersperformance.com/
Re: Bellhousing [Re: 300_dup5] #1754568
02/14/15 11:04 PM
02/14/15 11:04 PM
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savoy64 Offline
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if it fits in without the clutch--then i would look at the clutch---does it slide easily onto the input?

Re: Bellhousing [Re: savoy64] #1754569
02/15/15 12:07 AM
02/15/15 12:07 AM
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Have not tried trans to bell with no clutch yet ?

Re: Bellhousing [Re: 300_dup5] #1754570
02/15/15 12:11 AM
02/15/15 12:11 AM
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Ohio
Dan Brewer Offline
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And even if it fits you need to check bellhousing allignment w an indicator.


A833 4-speeds, parts & services
http://www.brewersperformance.com/
Re: Bellhousing [Re: Dan Brewer] #1754571
02/15/15 12:29 AM
02/15/15 12:29 AM
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Thanks, I got one ( have not tried it yet). Got to figure out how to use it.
It's got the dial attached to a flex line/ hose , with a set of vies grips in the case,
Got it from a friend, he had it awhile, but doesn't know a thing about it
I'll goggle it

Re: Bellhousing [Re: 300_dup5] #1754572
02/15/15 01:35 AM
02/15/15 01:35 AM
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gulfport, ms, west mi
rowin4 Offline
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Quote:

New bell, new clutch new everything, Engine was not 4 speed before
I had everything bolted up, went to slide trans in and input shaft retainer on new trans actually was hitting side of bell hole, not allowing it to go any further.
Took bell off, clutch out, got a steel input shaft off another 833 , slide in perfect into crank and pilot sleeve
Put bell back on ( no clutch) and tried again , goes in fine ( the steel 833 input shaft does not have retainer on end)
Just doing some rough measurments from shaft to bell on both sides , shows its off about 1/16". Whatever that maybe in thousandths
If I hold shaft over to one side it's much better, but you can feel the resistance when turned
Got to get a dial indicator
I slide my finger down left side, down right side a little resistance
??? Maybe a good shot on right side of pinion shaft would straighten it ( just kidding






You say that the engine was not a 4 speed before, was the crank drilled for a stick input shaft? You say it slides into the pilot sleeve , is that a standard replacement bushing and installed all the way in? What do you mean { the steel 833 does not have a retainer on the end] ? There are offset dowels available to dial in the bell housing if you need to. Robbmc performance sells what you need.

Last edited by rowin4; 02/15/15 01:38 AM.

it's ok to butt heads, just don't do it with a butthead
Re: Bellhousing [Re: rowin4] #1754573
02/15/15 02:13 AM
02/15/15 02:13 AM
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gulfport, ms, west mi
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With the bell housing back on with no pressure plate installed, I use a magnetic based dial indicator to zero in the bell housing. The magnetic base is stuck on between the [ clean ] flywheel bolts , the indicator is setup to run on the large surface hole of the bell housing that the transmission bearing retainer fits in. I mark the harmonic balancer every 45 degrees . Turn the crankshaft from the front crank bolt. Take a reading , write it down at each 45 degrees till you complete a full rotation. This will tell you whether your bell housing is good to go or not. I think .010 total indicator run out is acceptable. Google that for proper info. If it is out contact Robbmc for the proper Mopar offset dowels.


it's ok to butt heads, just don't do it with a butthead
Re: Bellhousing [Re: rowin4] #1754574
02/15/15 08:42 AM
02/15/15 08:42 AM
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Yes, crank was drilled, brass sleeve is in, the input shaft that I'm using does not have the 4".3 retainer on the end, so it hard to tell how far off it is
The brass sleeve is flush with face of crank, shaft does slide into and to end of crank
So that's all good
Will try the trans again, without clutch, but by looking at it, retainer on input shaft will hit the one side again on bell
Will get it sorted out when I dial it in

Re: Bellhousing [Re: 300_dup5] #1754575
02/15/15 02:28 PM
02/15/15 02:28 PM
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Rittman Ohio
fourgearsavoy Offline
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Terry here is a link to a 4-speed conversion I was involved with and there is some good information and pictures on how to setup and dial indicator.
https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/show...e=3#Post3272813

Gus

8429942-moriaburnout.JPG (48 downloads)

64 Plymouth Savoy
493 Indy EZ's by Nick at Compu-Flow
5-Speed Richmond faceplate Liberty box
Dana 60
Re: Bellhousing [Re: fourgearsavoy] #1754576
02/15/15 03:35 PM
02/15/15 03:35 PM
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Stanton Offline
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Where are you in Ontario? If you're close, I have all the tools to check alignment.

The bearing retainer is a snug fit in the bell and often needs to be twisted and coaxed in. Also, the trans has to go in straight - best accomplished with some long bolts with the heads cut off installed in the top two holes in the bell.

Have you got the clutch disc in backwards? It installs one way only. If installed backwards the slines on the input shaft will bottom out before its all the way in. Just using an input shaft is no indicator that things are "right". It still may not be going in as far as it has to.

Re: Bellhousing [Re: 300_dup5] #1754577
02/15/15 06:40 PM
02/15/15 06:40 PM
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Quote:

Yes, crank was drilled, brass sleeve is in, the input shaft that I'm using does not have the 4".3 retainer on the end, so it hard to tell how far off it is
The brass sleeve is flush with face of crank, shaft does slide into and to end of crank
So that's all good
Will try the trans again, without clutch, but by looking at it, retainer on input shaft will hit the one side again on bell
Will get it sorted out when I dial it in




First thing you need to do is take that junk brass bushing out and throw it in the garbage! Go buy a roller type bearing that is used in the later magnum applications and put that into the snout that a convertor would sit in if your had an auto trans. Put bellhousing on, put clutch and pressure plate onto the trans. shaft while not bolting the pressure plate to the flywheel until you have the trans. all the way into the bell. If pressure plate won't bolt up then you have a problem.

Re: Bellhousing [Re: kenworth_goose] #1754578
02/15/15 07:12 PM
02/15/15 07:12 PM
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gulfport, ms, west mi
rowin4 Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

Yes, crank was drilled, brass sleeve is in, the input shaft that I'm using does not have the 4".3 retainer on the end, so it hard to tell how far off it is
The brass sleeve is flush with face of crank, shaft does slide into and to end of crank
So that's all good
Will try the trans again, without clutch, but by looking at it, retainer on input shaft will hit the one side again on bell
Will get it sorted out when I dial it in




First thing you need to do is take that junk brass bushing out and throw it in the garbage! Go buy a roller type bearing that is used in the later magnum applications and put that into the snout that a convertor would sit in if your had an auto trans. Put bellhousing on, put clutch and pressure plate onto the trans. shaft while not bolting the pressure plate to the flywheel until you have the trans. all the way into the bell. If pressure plate won't bolt up then you have a problem.





So , how do you get the pressure plate and clutch disc into the bell housing after it's on the transmission and the bell housing is on the engine?..


it's ok to butt heads, just don't do it with a butthead
Re: Bellhousing [Re: rowin4] #1754579
02/15/15 07:58 PM
02/15/15 07:58 PM
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Rittman Ohio
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I'm pretty sure he is assuming the OP has a factory type bell that you can leave the plate loose on the flywheel and then tighten the plate once the tranny is bolted up
Gus


64 Plymouth Savoy
493 Indy EZ's by Nick at Compu-Flow
5-Speed Richmond faceplate Liberty box
Dana 60
Re: Bellhousing [Re: fourgearsavoy] #1754580
02/15/15 08:33 PM
02/15/15 08:33 PM
Joined: Jun 2005
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gulfport, ms, west mi
rowin4 Offline
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I guess that maybe true about a stock open bottom bell housing as that [ your ] question was never answered about that. Also it was never asked or stated if the bearing retainer fits the bell housing hole . So, does the bearing retainer fit the hole? I have had some with a nick on the not allow it to slip in. If the bell housing is a open bottom, install the clutch / pressure plate with the bolts loose, then push in the transmission, then tighten the bolts.


it's ok to butt heads, just don't do it with a butthead
Re: Bellhousing [Re: rowin4] #1754581
02/15/15 10:19 PM
02/15/15 10:19 PM
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Ontario Canada
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Bearing retainer on trans does fit bell hole, did that off the engine before,
Once I get this all dialled in, I'm sure all this will come together.
Yes if your close to me, by all means come out and give me a hand, I don't mind paying someone for there time on items I can't do,
Thanks

Re: Bellhousing [Re: rowin4] #1754582
02/16/15 05:52 PM
02/16/15 05:52 PM
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Stanton Offline
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Quote:

First thing you need to do is take that junk brass bushing out and throw it in the garbage!




This is BS! These bushings have been used, problem free, for decades. The only reason they used a bearing was to save money on the crank drilling operation. Think about this ... the ONLY time the shaft spins in the bearing is when the clutch is in, otherwise, the shaft is turning with the crank. And what's more likely to fail, a solid bushing OR a mechanical bearing ?!?!?

That bushing is not your issue, leave it alone.

As for installing the assembly from the bottom ... REALLY ?!?!?

1) make sure there is not too much grease in the pilot hole. Grease will not compress and will limit how far the input can go in. Force it and it will start to push the bushing out!
2) make sure the disc is installed correctly - should have a stamp saying "flywheel side".
3) install disc and pressure plate using the input shaft to align the disc.

Go to Princess Auto and but the cheap dial indicator and magnetic base to dial in the bellhousing. I seriously doubt its out by 1/16". If it is you have a SERIOUS problem as there are no alignment dowels with that much offset.

Which raises the question ... are there dowels in the block now???

Unfortunately you're about 3 hours from me or I'd come and help.

Re: Bellhousing [Re: Stanton] #1754583
02/16/15 07:28 PM
02/16/15 07:28 PM
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Western Md.
skicker Offline
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Terry,
There's been a lot of good info posted here...call me and we'll walk through it and see if anything jumps out...


...FAFO...
Re: Bellhousing [Re: skicker] #1754584
02/17/15 10:03 PM
02/17/15 10:03 PM
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Ontario Canada
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Well all is good, loosened bell bolts, Clutch etc, Slip trans in, no problem
Tightened bell, clutch etc, dialed in bell, was within specs,
put trans back in
Life is good
Thanks to all

Re: Bellhousing [Re: 300_dup5] #1754585
02/17/15 10:15 PM
02/17/15 10:15 PM
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Quote:

Well all is good, loosened bell bolts, Clutch etc, Slip trans in, no problem
Tightened bell, clutch etc, dialed in bell, was within specs,
put trans back in
Life is good
Thanks to all


Congratulations That is good to hear I hope I have no scattersheild alignment problems on my newest 4 speed project I'll have to check it to make sure, no since in hoping Murphy loves messing with me


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: Bellhousing [Re: Cab_Burge] #1754586
02/18/15 01:16 AM
02/18/15 01:16 AM
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GTX MATT Offline
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So what was the problem?


Now I need to pin those needles, got to feel that heat
Hear my motor screamin while I'm tearin up the street
Re: Bellhousing [Re: Cab_Burge] #1754587
02/18/15 01:19 AM
02/18/15 01:19 AM
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Western Md.
skicker Offline
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Quote:

Murphy loves messing with me



Don't feel bad Cab...when he's not messing with you he's messing with me...


...FAFO...
Re: Bellhousing [Re: GTX MATT] #1754588
02/18/15 01:20 AM
02/18/15 01:20 AM
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Quote:

So what was the problem?




See post 4 in this thread.


They say there are no such thing as a stupid question.
They say there is always the exception that proves the rule.
Don't be the exception.
Re: Bellhousing [Re: Supercuda] #1754589
02/18/15 01:28 AM
02/18/15 01:28 AM
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Quote:

Quote:

So what was the problem?




See post 4 in this thread.






Now I need to pin those needles, got to feel that heat
Hear my motor screamin while I'm tearin up the street
Re: Bellhousing [Re: Stanton] #1754590
02/18/15 01:42 AM
02/18/15 01:42 AM
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gulfport, ms, west mi
rowin4 Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

First thing you need to do is take that junk brass bushing out and throw it in the garbage!




This is BS! These bushings have been used, problem free, for decades. The only reason they used a bearing was to save money on the crank drilling operation. Think about this ... the ONLY time the shaft spins in the bearing is when the clutch is in, otherwise, the shaft is turning with the crank. And what's more likely to fail, a solid bushing OR a mechanical bearing ?!?!?

That bushing is not your issue, leave it alone.

As for installing the assembly from the bottom ... REALLY ?!?!?

1) make sure there is not too much grease in the pilot hole. Grease will not compress and will limit how far the input can go in. Force it and it will start to push the bushing out!
2) make sure the disc is installed correctly - should have a stamp saying "flywheel side".
3) install disc and pressure plate using the input shaft to align the disc.

Go to Princess Auto and but the cheap dial indicator and magnetic base to dial in the bellhousing. I seriously doubt its out by 1/16". If it is you have a SERIOUS problem as there are no alignment dowels with that much offset.

Which raises the question ... are there dowels in the block now???

Unfortunately you're about 3 hours from me or I'd come and help.








I agree with you Stanton on the bushing, Dodge used that same bushing since 1928 through 1974


it's ok to butt heads, just don't do it with a butthead
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