Re: Bellhousing
[Re: 300_dup5]
#1754558
02/14/15 08:13 PM
02/14/15 08:13 PM
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889 up yours
Supercuda
About to go away
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About to go away
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889
up yours
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Wonder why you think the bellhousing is off.
More likely you do not have the clutch disc centered up.
I usually install the clutch, PP and bellhousing with the clutch fork and whatnot all set up, slide the trans in as far as it will go and if it will not completely go in have someone step on the clutch pedal and it'll release the pressure plate allowing the disc to center up.
They say there are no such thing as a stupid question. They say there is always the exception that proves the rule. Don't be the exception.
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Re: Bellhousing
[Re: 300_dup5]
#1754559
02/14/15 08:33 PM
02/14/15 08:33 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,007 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,007
Bend,OR USA
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Quote:
I have to get a dial indicator, just a measurement with measure Had new clutch in, new bell on Tried to fit 833 in, no way. Stopped about 1/4" from going in It did start into new pilot bushing Took it all apart ( after using one of those plastic tools Got a steel input shaft, and this is where I'm at
The final 1/4 inch of travel is usually the front bearing retainer lip not entering into the bellhousing correctly Let us know what you find out, maybe you have the large bearing retainer and the small hole bellhousing Good luck BTW, one of the easest fixes on that deal is to have the bearing retainer O.D. turn down to the proper size, unless you have a 18 spline NP 833 instead of the 23 spline tranny
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: Bellhousing
[Re: 300_dup5]
#1754560
02/14/15 08:39 PM
02/14/15 08:39 PM
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Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 10,550 Rittman Ohio
fourgearsavoy
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 10,550
Rittman Ohio
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So the this particular engine always has a 4-speed bolted to it right? Is this bellhousing the only new part in the equation? Does the input bearing retainer fit the bellhousing? I have a special tool that another member here made from my drawings and it works much better than a magnetic base on the crank. I have a pic of it on my laptop I can post later Gus
64 Plymouth Savoy 493 Indy EZ's by Nick at Compu-Flow 5-Speed Richmond faceplate Liberty box Dana 60
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Re: Bellhousing
[Re: fourgearsavoy]
#1754561
02/14/15 09:43 PM
02/14/15 09:43 PM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 219 Ontario Canada
300_dup5
OP
enthusiast
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OP
enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 219
Ontario Canada
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New bell, new clutch new everything, Engine was not 4 speed before I had everything bolted up, went to slide trans in and input shaft retainer on new trans actually was hitting side of bell hole, not allowing it to go any further. Took bell off, clutch out, got a steel input shaft off another 833 , slide in perfect into crank and pilot sleeve Put bell back on ( no clutch) and tried again , goes in fine ( the steel 833 input shaft does not have retainer on end) Just doing some rough measurments from shaft to bell on both sides , shows its off about 1/16". Whatever that maybe in thousandths If I hold shaft over to one side it's much better, but you can feel the resistance when turned Got to get a dial indicator I slide my finger down left side, down right side a little resistance ??? Maybe a good shot on right side of pinion shaft would straighten it ( just kidding
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Re: Bellhousing
[Re: 300_dup5]
#1754563
02/14/15 10:01 PM
02/14/15 10:01 PM
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Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 10,550 Rittman Ohio
fourgearsavoy
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 10,550
Rittman Ohio
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So the transmission bolts right in without the clutch Well you should check it anyway so if it's off that far it won't be easy to fix. Here's a pic of my alignment tool. What kind of bellhousing is it? Gus
64 Plymouth Savoy 493 Indy EZ's by Nick at Compu-Flow 5-Speed Richmond faceplate Liberty box Dana 60
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Re: Bellhousing
[Re: fourgearsavoy]
#1754564
02/14/15 10:09 PM
02/14/15 10:09 PM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 219 Ontario Canada
300_dup5
OP
enthusiast
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OP
enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 219
Ontario Canada
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Trans doesn't bolt up, spare trans spline ( without retainer on it) does Got it from Mancini. Aluminum, No clutch in it at this time
Last edited by 300; 02/14/15 10:12 PM.
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Re: Bellhousing
[Re: 300_dup5]
#1754565
02/14/15 10:16 PM
02/14/15 10:16 PM
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Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 10,550 Rittman Ohio
fourgearsavoy
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 10,550
Rittman Ohio
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If it won't even bolt up without the clutch then something is off further than I've ever seen before. So the tranny bolts up to the bell when it's not attached to the engine right? And the crank is drilled deep enough to accept the input pilot. Gus
64 Plymouth Savoy 493 Indy EZ's by Nick at Compu-Flow 5-Speed Richmond faceplate Liberty box Dana 60
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Re: Bellhousing
[Re: 300_dup5]
#1754572
02/15/15 01:35 AM
02/15/15 01:35 AM
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 6,257 gulfport, ms, west mi
rowin4
master
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master
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 6,257
gulfport, ms, west mi
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Quote:
New bell, new clutch new everything, Engine was not 4 speed before I had everything bolted up, went to slide trans in and input shaft retainer on new trans actually was hitting side of bell hole, not allowing it to go any further. Took bell off, clutch out, got a steel input shaft off another 833 , slide in perfect into crank and pilot sleeve Put bell back on ( no clutch) and tried again , goes in fine ( the steel 833 input shaft does not have retainer on end) Just doing some rough measurments from shaft to bell on both sides , shows its off about 1/16". Whatever that maybe in thousandths If I hold shaft over to one side it's much better, but you can feel the resistance when turned Got to get a dial indicator I slide my finger down left side, down right side a little resistance ??? Maybe a good shot on right side of pinion shaft would straighten it ( just kidding
You say that the engine was not a 4 speed before, was the crank drilled for a stick input shaft? You say it slides into the pilot sleeve , is that a standard replacement bushing and installed all the way in? What do you mean { the steel 833 does not have a retainer on the end] ? There are offset dowels available to dial in the bell housing if you need to. Robbmc performance sells what you need.
Last edited by rowin4; 02/15/15 01:38 AM.
it's ok to butt heads, just don't do it with a butthead
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Re: Bellhousing
[Re: rowin4]
#1754573
02/15/15 02:13 AM
02/15/15 02:13 AM
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 6,257 gulfport, ms, west mi
rowin4
master
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master
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 6,257
gulfport, ms, west mi
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With the bell housing back on with no pressure plate installed, I use a magnetic based dial indicator to zero in the bell housing. The magnetic base is stuck on between the [ clean ] flywheel bolts , the indicator is setup to run on the large surface hole of the bell housing that the transmission bearing retainer fits in. I mark the harmonic balancer every 45 degrees . Turn the crankshaft from the front crank bolt. Take a reading , write it down at each 45 degrees till you complete a full rotation. This will tell you whether your bell housing is good to go or not. I think .010 total indicator run out is acceptable. Google that for proper info. If it is out contact Robbmc for the proper Mopar offset dowels.
it's ok to butt heads, just don't do it with a butthead
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Re: Bellhousing
[Re: 300_dup5]
#1754577
02/15/15 06:40 PM
02/15/15 06:40 PM
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 2,046 ky.
kenworth_goose
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 2,046
ky.
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Quote:
Yes, crank was drilled, brass sleeve is in, the input shaft that I'm using does not have the 4".3 retainer on the end, so it hard to tell how far off it is The brass sleeve is flush with face of crank, shaft does slide into and to end of crank So that's all good Will try the trans again, without clutch, but by looking at it, retainer on input shaft will hit the one side again on bell Will get it sorted out when I dial it in
First thing you need to do is take that junk brass bushing out and throw it in the garbage! Go buy a roller type bearing that is used in the later magnum applications and put that into the snout that a convertor would sit in if your had an auto trans. Put bellhousing on, put clutch and pressure plate onto the trans. shaft while not bolting the pressure plate to the flywheel until you have the trans. all the way into the bell. If pressure plate won't bolt up then you have a problem.
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Re: Bellhousing
[Re: kenworth_goose]
#1754578
02/15/15 07:12 PM
02/15/15 07:12 PM
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 6,257 gulfport, ms, west mi
rowin4
master
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master
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 6,257
gulfport, ms, west mi
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Quote:
Quote:
Yes, crank was drilled, brass sleeve is in, the input shaft that I'm using does not have the 4".3 retainer on the end, so it hard to tell how far off it is The brass sleeve is flush with face of crank, shaft does slide into and to end of crank So that's all good Will try the trans again, without clutch, but by looking at it, retainer on input shaft will hit the one side again on bell Will get it sorted out when I dial it in
First thing you need to do is take that junk brass bushing out and throw it in the garbage! Go buy a roller type bearing that is used in the later magnum applications and put that into the snout that a convertor would sit in if your had an auto trans. Put bellhousing on, put clutch and pressure plate onto the trans. shaft while not bolting the pressure plate to the flywheel until you have the trans. all the way into the bell. If pressure plate won't bolt up then you have a problem.
So , how do you get the pressure plate and clutch disc into the bell housing after it's on the transmission and the bell housing is on the engine?..
it's ok to butt heads, just don't do it with a butthead
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Re: Bellhousing
[Re: fourgearsavoy]
#1754580
02/15/15 08:33 PM
02/15/15 08:33 PM
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 6,257 gulfport, ms, west mi
rowin4
master
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master
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 6,257
gulfport, ms, west mi
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I guess that maybe true about a stock open bottom bell housing as that [ your ] question was never answered about that. Also it was never asked or stated if the bearing retainer fits the bell housing hole . So, does the bearing retainer fit the hole? I have had some with a nick on the not allow it to slip in. If the bell housing is a open bottom, install the clutch / pressure plate with the bolts loose, then push in the transmission, then tighten the bolts.
it's ok to butt heads, just don't do it with a butthead
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Re: Bellhousing
[Re: rowin4]
#1754582
02/16/15 05:52 PM
02/16/15 05:52 PM
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 8,828 Ontario, Canada
Stanton
Don't question me!
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Don't question me!
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 8,828
Ontario, Canada
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Quote:
First thing you need to do is take that junk brass bushing out and throw it in the garbage!
This is BS! These bushings have been used, problem free, for decades. The only reason they used a bearing was to save money on the crank drilling operation. Think about this ... the ONLY time the shaft spins in the bearing is when the clutch is in, otherwise, the shaft is turning with the crank. And what's more likely to fail, a solid bushing OR a mechanical bearing ?!?!?
That bushing is not your issue, leave it alone.
As for installing the assembly from the bottom ... REALLY ?!?!?
1) make sure there is not too much grease in the pilot hole. Grease will not compress and will limit how far the input can go in. Force it and it will start to push the bushing out! 2) make sure the disc is installed correctly - should have a stamp saying "flywheel side". 3) install disc and pressure plate using the input shaft to align the disc.
Go to Princess Auto and but the cheap dial indicator and magnetic base to dial in the bellhousing. I seriously doubt its out by 1/16". If it is you have a SERIOUS problem as there are no alignment dowels with that much offset.
Which raises the question ... are there dowels in the block now???
Unfortunately you're about 3 hours from me or I'd come and help.
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Re: Bellhousing
[Re: Stanton]
#1754583
02/16/15 07:28 PM
02/16/15 07:28 PM
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 5,095 Western Md.
skicker
"The Champ"
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"The Champ"
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 5,095
Western Md.
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Terry, There's been a lot of good info posted here...call me and we'll walk through it and see if anything jumps out...
...FAFO...
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Re: Bellhousing
[Re: 300_dup5]
#1754585
02/17/15 10:15 PM
02/17/15 10:15 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,007 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,007
Bend,OR USA
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Quote:
Well all is good, loosened bell bolts, Clutch etc, Slip trans in, no problem Tightened bell, clutch etc, dialed in bell, was within specs, put trans back in Life is good Thanks to all
Congratulations That is good to hear I hope I have no scattersheild alignment problems on my newest 4 speed project I'll have to check it to make sure, no since in hoping Murphy loves messing with me
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: Bellhousing
[Re: Stanton]
#1754590
02/18/15 01:42 AM
02/18/15 01:42 AM
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 6,257 gulfport, ms, west mi
rowin4
master
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master
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 6,257
gulfport, ms, west mi
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Quote:
Quote:
First thing you need to do is take that junk brass bushing out and throw it in the garbage!
This is BS! These bushings have been used, problem free, for decades. The only reason they used a bearing was to save money on the crank drilling operation. Think about this ... the ONLY time the shaft spins in the bearing is when the clutch is in, otherwise, the shaft is turning with the crank. And what's more likely to fail, a solid bushing OR a mechanical bearing ?!?!?
That bushing is not your issue, leave it alone.
As for installing the assembly from the bottom ... REALLY ?!?!?
1) make sure there is not too much grease in the pilot hole. Grease will not compress and will limit how far the input can go in. Force it and it will start to push the bushing out! 2) make sure the disc is installed correctly - should have a stamp saying "flywheel side". 3) install disc and pressure plate using the input shaft to align the disc.
Go to Princess Auto and but the cheap dial indicator and magnetic base to dial in the bellhousing. I seriously doubt its out by 1/16". If it is you have a SERIOUS problem as there are no alignment dowels with that much offset.
Which raises the question ... are there dowels in the block now???
Unfortunately you're about 3 hours from me or I'd come and help.
I agree with you Stanton on the bushing, Dodge used that same bushing since 1928 through 1974
it's ok to butt heads, just don't do it with a butthead
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