Ran a 245 Raised Port INDY head motor for first time today.....

Little background on the combo, it came to me as a fresh motor complete with 7 dyno pulls on it in NY. It made 580's HP @ 6200RPM, 520's TQ & owner was'nt happy with power & had me go through it & make changes.

Basic combo as ran today:

R3, 59* 4.07" bore, 4.0" MP/SCAT 4340 crank.
Eagle 6.123" H beams W/L19's
Ross off shelf 4.07" Dome 4" crank pistons, 1/16" 3/16" rings, no gas ports etc.
12.6:1 compression
Mancini 8 QT pan
ATI damper
Mezziere water pump/MSD Dist/wires/ignition
Bullet Roller cam 276/280 @ .050", .712"/.692" on 108
Crane Ultra Pros, Comp 3/8 Pushrods
INDY 245RP CNC heads OOB W/SDSS 5 angle VJ & blend 68 CC chamber
T&D 1.5 rockers, INDY 360-3R manifold port matched

Ran two different sets of headers, first set were my dyno headers, 1 7/8" into 2" steps with 3.5" collectors.

Second set are custom made by chassis shop for this guys car with 4" engine setback, 1 3/4" into 1 7/8" step with 3" collectors.

Ran 2 different carbs..... first was 1000 Race Demon modifed for E85 use

2nd was OOB 1050 Quickfuel gasoline Drag carb

Things I changed from original 580HP tune when it was originally built by shop in NY:

Changed intake valves from 2.10" to 2.150", exhausts from 1.65 down to 1.625.
Replaced INDY's Valve job with SDSS 5 angle valve job on heads, hand blend exhaust seats
Port match intake manifold to RP port window, from INDY's std port match job
Re-hone Barton honed block for proper cyl wall finish with TQ plate. (was very rough cross hatch, rings never seated on first build)
Changed pushrods from 5/16" generic hand mades to .080" Comp 3/8 Hi-techs
Replaced 271/275 @ .050", .627"/.639" Comp MM lobe Flat tappet with custom Bullet roller 276/280@ .050", .712"/.692" on 108
Change springs/retainers/locks/cups over to roller setup 240 seat/600 open, tool steel retainers etc.
Put set of Crane 59* Ultra Pros in it
New set of Total Seal AP Stainless Nitrous series rings, setup for small N20 shot.
1000 Demon sent out for 85 Conversion (shop found 2 boosters left 1/2 machined by Barry Grant & fixed that)

Basically just put a roller in it & fix cyl wall/ring seal issues, fix attention to detail items..... Real simple basic motor, NO trick parts in it, only "custom" part in it not right out of a catalog was the cam I designed.... everything else was right off the shelf & thrown together with attention to detail.

1st pull I'll post is best pull we could get with the 1000 Demon on E85... We spent alot of time reworking fuel curve on this thing to get it rich enough, finally got it there with some mondo jetting, but was pretty darn lean OOB from shop that converted it. I think this was winter blend E85... (just got it out of pump in State College this AM, E85 not easy to acquire in PA) so I don't know exact blend, we did test the specific gravity, it was around .785 if I recall. I was thinking it would make 665 before we started the day on E85 & maybe 650 on gas, so we were in ballpark I thought on the E85 after all tuning. This was with the big tube dyno headers, we never ran it with small headers with the E85. This was with 39 degrees timing & 2" HVH super Sucker. We tried timing from 28 to 41, it liked 39-40 best on E85. Shop that converted carb did'nt quite seem to anticipate amount of power the motor would make I think.... We were outside reasonable jetting window by a bunch to get it rich enough. We told them it would make around 650 HP, which was mistake, because on their Land & Sea dyno, our 650s would be more like 720's to them. So kind of our mistake on not giving them better info on carb setup maybe.... although that does'nt excuse all 4 high speed air bleeds being so loose they were vibrating out of carb (luckily I cought that)

Anyhow here the E85 #'s from best pull....

I felt/feel the RP head with it's 2.75" of cross section & 245 runners was hurting TQ a bit, seemed little off what I'd have liked to see. Did pick up little later, but overall the head is a BIG head for a 4.07 bore 416, but power was good, TQ just suffered a little as I'd expect.

Here is is motor in same tune, 39 timing, Big tube dyno headers, just changed to Sunoco HCR+ race gas & a Box stock 1050 Quickfuel dominator for a quick glance to see what the fuel & carb change would do:

So..... The E85 not so great, BUT... I don't think it was the fuels fault, the carb was simply not right, a combo a Barry Grants lack of carb prowess & the shop that converted it to E85 missed it a bit.

Anyhow.... here is same tune, 39 degrees on race gas, Dominator with just a header change.... this was the TTI copy 1 3/4" to 1 7/8" customs with 3" collector. They look virtually identical to a TTI 1 7/8 W2 header.... I was real surprised to see how well they worked compared to the sprint car dyno headers.

Then last pull of day we pulled at 300 a second.... normally I pull everything at 600, & we almost never see a change going to 300/sec, usually I lose tiny amt of power at 300.... this motor picked TQ way up & power was also up. This was exact same tune as pull before it, 39 timing, 1050 dominator on gas with the small TTI look alike headers.....

Overall impressions of E85 is it's a neat fuel, paid $1.23 a gallon today for it, we used 6 gallons for 8 minutes of warm up time & 12 pulls. Does'nt stink as bad as I was told it did, it was'nt happy starting in dyno cell in 20 degree air when motor was cold but... gas does'nt like to start that cold either. Pretty neat fuel, just need to make sure carb is setup to move enough fuel for what you're doing.... We ended up with jets drilled out in the .142" range...

Was surpsied the convoluted small tube headers really did not hurt power at all.... Going to be doing some more testing next month with some W5TTI's VS the Sprint headers on a 700+ HP motor. We'll see how that pans out.

Very interesting. Would you care to disclose who prepped the carb for E85? Inquiring minds would like to know. Jim

Looking back through data.... those TQ peaks (RPM wise) are quite high for a 416. Look more like a 3.58" crank motor. Those RP heads are not for those who are faint of heart about putting some converter in their car.

I hope my 230's can perform the same or better than that combo with a little more ci and a bit more compression

Ryan, what did you wind up doing for intake gaskets, and was there enough material on the intake to gasket match it? I made a cardboard template of the intake surface on the head and sent it to Cometic to make me some .188" thick gaskets which I think will raise the intake up high enough to allow for gasket matching. I'll just have to slot the intake bolt holes a little bit.

Ryan, that last pull is on gas? those AF and VE numbers look way off or something.....

howard

Pretty impresive for what it is, iam sure those heads have alot more potencial, also i wonder if those indys will like a s/m intake

In my opinion the dynamic compression is not near high enough to take advantage of the e-85 either. It should not cost HP but I bet there would be a nice little lump of tq added with more compression, like at least 2 pts.

Very interesting Ryan, you improved that motor by about 100 HP!

Boy, the E85 was really down on TQ and HP at 4600 rpm..about 50 less than the race gas! Thanks for the comparo.

It's not the fuel that was down, it was the Demon Carb. Dominators usually make better TQ than a big 4150 like a 1000 Demon due to venturi shape being piss poor on a large 4150. As I told the customer, his best bet would be to just get an E85 Dominator done & get rid of the Demon. I never like to use large body 4150s on our SB motors, they never seem to work good, & I definitely don't like using Demons, but he already had the carb & wanted to stay with it.

Howard, that last pull we ran with the air inlet off, so that's why the #'s are funky. We did a pull right before that with the air inlet off (sucking outside air instead of shop air) & power was basically same as using shop air, then we went to 300 a sec on that last pull.

Why such high timing? What was the difference with say 33-34* vs. 39*

I knew there was something funk wrong, just didn't know what.

Howard
mrsmallblock

Good info Ryan. Lets me know what my engine would be capable of with the next .040" bore, and a bigger cam. I think I'll start looking for a siamese block, more seriously, before I use those 245's, unless these 5's burp...

Nice write up. I bet that guy is gonna be happy now.

Nice Job Ryan......... I bet that dude thinks your a gwad

A 100HP is not easy to come by

I guess if it's not a hemi...

X

Very nice work Ryan.

A keeper post.Thanks

Soo.. you guys don't have a wide-band on that dyno? Looks like you're using airflow and fuel flow data to arrive at your A/Fs?

Ryan, just wondering what your take on what the bore finnish shoud be. My engine builder was of opinion that there should be an almost a polished finnish. He said he is open to other approaches but that this has worked for him in the past.

I know you mentioned that the bore was overly cross-hatched. So, what is the "right" way to finnish the bore for best ring seating? Thanks!

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I would think it depends on what type of rings your are using, but that is the limit of my knowledge on this subject. Matt

& yeah I should have prefaced by saying 90% of motors I do uses about the same rings. Speed Pro/Mahle/Total seal .043" or 1/16" plasma molys. The other 9.9% get Total Seal TNT's or Speed Pro Hellfires. & this motor just happened to get a set of Stainless. If I built Winston cup or Pro stock or Comp eliminator motors I'd taper the cyl wall finish more to each individual ring type. But for the traditional moly & hellfire type stuff I've had exceptional results with the 500 grit & plateau finish.

Thanks for the great info Ryan! Sounds like my engine builder had the right idea on this. Your attention to detail is amazing, enough to make me wanna go small block. I have been thinking i'd like to do one with Commando heads for an upcoming project. I know who i want to build it..