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Re: How much to build 440?
[Re: mopar346]
#1708454
12/10/14 01:37 AM
12/10/14 01:37 AM
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,161
CT
GTX MATT
master
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master
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,161
CT
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If you've got money to spend swing in good pistons. Ideally you should just need a hone and a rotating assembly re-balance, as well as possibly having your connecting rods bushed for floating pins depending on your piston choice.
If you do this I would figure:
500 for pistons
100 for hone to fit pistons
300 for rebalance
New bearings 160
Machine rods 200?
Cam and lifters 200
Custom pushrods 100
Valve springs, locks, retainers 250
Gaskets 100?
Headers 150-500
So you're looking at about 800 to do it without upping the compression, another 1300 to up the compression. Then any labor.
Now I need to pin those needles, got to feel that heat
Hear my motor screamin while I'm tearin up the street
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Re: How much to build 440?
[Re: mopar346]
#1708457
12/10/14 10:56 AM
12/10/14 10:56 AM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
Pale_Roader
Swears too much
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Swears too much
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
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Wow... some pretty outdated info in here.
400HP is too easy for a 440. By my 1/4 mile times i was pushing over that in my last 440. Unrebuilt, 140K mile 76 New Yorker engine with the usual junk: 7.6:1 CR, 452 heads. I will admit to this one having a very mild non-stock cam though... something like a 6-pack cam. You could only really 'hear' it when it was cold.
I pulled that from the car, installed it in my wreck with some Hooker Comp headers (also a 3" mandrel bent X-pipe Spintech exhaust), a mildly plenum-ported Holley Street Dominator intake, Holley 750 vac secondary, 1" 4-hole spacer, slightly modded stub stack (no air cleaner), , recurved stock electric ign dist, small clutch fan, really... i think that was about it. The car had no PS, no AC and no other power options save PDB. That engine was a piece ov junk (burned a bit ov oil, wasn't terribly smooth) and it made well in excess ov 400HP, by gross standards anyways (think my speed calc was in net?)
Easy peasy, no build necessary.
- DONT buy a junk intake. Stick with the classics (RPM, Holley SD). Block the heat crossover when you swap it. There is a LOT ov power in the right intake.
- Dont try and make a thermoquad work... 99% ov guys cant. If you're that 1%, go nuts, but most guys that think they're in that 1% are not. Holleys rule the strip for a reason... cheap, easy, and they work.
- Long tube headers are not optional.
- Build a real exhaust (read: what was fun or cool in the 70's and 80's is costing you power now)
- Put a good cam in there, preferably from a company that knows the difference between Mopar and Chevy (most dont). Hughes makes a cam that is both modern (FAR more efficient at making power) and actually builds cylinder pressure to help out these asthmatic low comp engines, its called Whiplash.
- head porting is actually pretty simple and easy to do, even made easier by kits you can buy. No need to go nuts, just a few hours work could net you a LOT ov power. Shave .030" off while they're out for a bit more squeeze (just dont lose sleep over making up that horrid mid-7's CR... you cant).
- windage trays are what? $50-60? (milodon, not that MP junk). Crank scrapers are free if you're crafty.
- stick with tried and true combos... many out there.
If you're going to build it. BUY PISTONS. And i dont mean that 60/70's junk (TRW/Speed Pro, stock crap). Buy modern pistons with ZERO DECK, and scrounge up a pair ov closed chamber heads... even 516's (put bigger exhaust valves in) would be preferable to the best open chamber head. This is the most important thing you can do by far. Zero deck/closed chamber heads allow real quench. 70's technology that should not be even optional... yet still people (stuck in the 50/60's) dont seem to bother.
Better yet, buy aluminum.
The only other non-negotiable thing is have it balanced. Mopars were awful from the factory. Its cheap to fix.
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Re: How much to build 440?
[Re: Pale_Roader]
#1708458
12/10/14 12:19 PM
12/10/14 12:19 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
Mr.Yuck
Not enough dumb comments...yet
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Not enough dumb comments...yet
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
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with only 3k I probably won't even pull the heads, if you do I'd have them milled and use the Mopar steel gaskets to get a little more compression. Right now you are at around 8:1 maybe lower if the fat Fel-Pros were used. Like I and others have mentioned, Cam, Headers, Intake (you have the carb), Good ingnition, Good tune, and you'll have all the tire burning, trunk pulling power you'll need for a cruiser. AND if you back the timing down you can use 87. I had a 73 440 from a Fury cop car. It had over 100k on it. We put new bearings in it, I added a 509 cam (wrong cam I know)a Bee Ess intake, I used the factory thermoquad and headers, that car would boil the tires until I lifted. Doesn't take much.
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Re: How much to build 440?
[Re: Pale_Roader]
#1708459
12/10/14 12:38 PM
12/10/14 12:38 PM
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Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 959
france
jose jones
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 959
france
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Quote:
Wow... some pretty outdated info in here.
400HP is too easy for a 440. By my 1/4 mile times i was pushing over that in my last 440. Unrebuilt, 140K mile 76 New Yorker engine with the usual junk: 7.6:1 CR, 452 heads. I will admit to this one having a very mild non-stock cam though... something like a 6-pack cam. You could only really 'hear' it when it was cold.
I pulled that from the car, installed it in my wreck with some Hooker Comp headers (also a 3" mandrel bent X-pipe Spintech exhaust), a mildly plenum-ported Holley Street Dominator intake, Holley 750 vac secondary, 1" 4-hole spacer, slightly modded stub stack (no air cleaner), , recurved stock electric ign dist, small clutch fan, really... i think that was about it. The car had no PS, no AC and no other power options save PDB. That engine was a piece ov junk (burned a bit ov oil, wasn't terribly smooth) and it made well in excess ov 400HP, by gross standards anyways (think my speed calc was in net?)
Easy peasy, no build necessary.
- DONT buy a junk intake. Stick with the classics (RPM, Holley SD). Block the heat crossover when you swap it. There is a LOT ov power in the right intake.
- Dont try and make a thermoquad work... 99% ov guys cant. If you're that 1%, go nuts, but most guys that think they're in that 1% are not. Holleys rule the strip for a reason... cheap, easy, and they work.
- Long tube headers are not optional.
- Build a real exhaust (read: what was fun or cool in the 70's and 80's is costing you power now)
- Put a good cam in there, preferably from a company that knows the difference between Mopar and Chevy (most dont). Hughes makes a cam that is both modern (FAR more efficient at making power) and actually builds cylinder pressure to help out these asthmatic low comp engines, its called Whiplash.
- head porting is actually pretty simple and easy to do, even made easier by kits you can buy. No need to go nuts, just a few hours work could net you a LOT ov power. Shave .030" off while they're out for a bit more squeeze (just dont lose sleep over making up that horrid mid-7's CR... you cant).
- windage trays are what? $50-60? (milodon, not that MP junk). Crank scrapers are free if you're crafty.
- stick with tried and true combos... many out there.
If you're going to build it. BUY PISTONS. And i dont mean that 60/70's junk (TRW/Speed Pro, stock crap). Buy modern pistons with ZERO DECK, and scrounge up a pair ov closed chamber heads... even 516's (put bigger exhaust valves in) would be preferable to the best open chamber head. This is the most important thing you can do by far. Zero deck/closed chamber heads allow real quench. 70's technology that should not be even optional... yet still people (stuck in the 50/60's) dont seem to bother.
Better yet, buy aluminum.
The only other non-negotiable thing is have it balanced. Mopars were awful from the factory. Its cheap to fix.
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Re: How much to build 440?
[Re: mopar346]
#1708460
12/10/14 01:33 PM
12/10/14 01:33 PM
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,161
CT
GTX MATT
master
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master
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,161
CT
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Ok, the car is a 70 challenger with fast ratio steering, so not sure if headers will fit or not.
The car is a standard.
Rear gears are 3.55
The reason I said 400hp is just to clarify that I'm not looking for a stroker motor, just a point of reference. Mild build.
Since the motor is in great shape, I was hopeing to get better response.
Are the 906 heads a good option for this motor or would bolting on different heads make a big difference?
If the 906 heads are fresh don't worry about it, you're not looking for 500 HP so you will get by fine with 9 or 9.5:1 compression
I don't think you will get your compression in the 9s with a smog block and piston combo and 906s. Or maybe I misunderstood your post.
Sorry, to clarify, I meant that if he is going to change the pistons. If not it doesn't matter he wont have any quench anyway even with aluminum/closed chambered heads. But my main point was he's looking for a strong running 440 and doesn't need to start going crazy on spending with aluminum heads and quench if his 906 heads are already fresh. He can do well with a solid 9 or 9.5:1 engine and open chambered iron heads, unless the money is just burning a hole in his pocket.
Now I need to pin those needles, got to feel that heat
Hear my motor screamin while I'm tearin up the street
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Re: How much to build 440?
[Re: mopar346]
#1708463
12/10/14 08:41 PM
12/10/14 08:41 PM
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Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 103
M.A.
Fern
OP
member
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OP
member
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 103
M.A.
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Quote:
Quote:
Do we know if the low comp pistons are even still in there? Sounds like a rebuild was done. ???
Good point.
I never even thought of that.
All I know about the motor is what the previous said "replacement 78 motor with 3k miles on it"
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Re: How much to build 440?
[Re: Pale_Roader]
#1708464
12/10/14 08:44 PM
12/10/14 08:44 PM
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Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 103
M.A.
Fern
OP
member
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OP
member
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 103
M.A.
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Quote:
Wow... some pretty outdated info in here.
400HP is too easy for a 440. By my 1/4 mile times i was pushing over that in my last 440. Unrebuilt, 140K mile 76 New Yorker engine with the usual junk: 7.6:1 CR, 452 heads. I will admit to this one having a very mild non-stock cam though... something like a 6-pack cam. You could only really 'hear' it when it was cold.
I pulled that from the car, installed it in my wreck with some Hooker Comp headers (also a 3" mandrel bent X-pipe Spintech exhaust), a mildly plenum-ported Holley Street Dominator intake, Holley 750 vac secondary, 1" 4-hole spacer, slightly modded stub stack (no air cleaner), , recurved stock electric ign dist, small clutch fan, really... i think that was about it. The car had no PS, no AC and no other power options save PDB. That engine was a piece ov junk (burned a bit ov oil, wasn't terribly smooth) and it made well in excess ov 400HP, by gross standards anyways (think my speed calc was in net?)
Easy peasy, no build necessary.
- DONT buy a junk intake. Stick with the classics (RPM, Holley SD). Block the heat crossover when you swap it. There is a LOT ov power in the right intake.
- Dont try and make a thermoquad work... 99% ov guys cant. If you're that 1%, go nuts, but most guys that think they're in that 1% are not. Holleys rule the strip for a reason... cheap, easy, and they work.
- Long tube headers are not optional.
- Build a real exhaust (read: what was fun or cool in the 70's and 80's is costing you power now)
- Put a good cam in there, preferably from a company that knows the difference between Mopar and Chevy (most dont). Hughes makes a cam that is both modern (FAR more efficient at making power) and actually builds cylinder pressure to help out these asthmatic low comp engines, its called Whiplash.
- head porting is actually pretty simple and easy to do, even made easier by kits you can buy. No need to go nuts, just a few hours work could net you a LOT ov power. Shave .030" off while they're out for a bit more squeeze (just dont lose sleep over making up that horrid mid-7's CR... you cant).
- windage trays are what? $50-60? (milodon, not that MP junk). Crank scrapers are free if you're crafty.
- stick with tried and true combos... many out there.
If you're going to build it. BUY PISTONS. And i dont mean that 60/70's junk (TRW/Speed Pro, stock crap). Buy modern pistons with ZERO DECK, and scrounge up a pair ov closed chamber heads... even 516's (put bigger exhaust valves in) would be preferable to the best open chamber head. This is the most important thing you can do by far. Zero deck/closed chamber heads allow real quench. 70's technology that should not be even optional... yet still people (stuck in the 50/60's) dont seem to bother.
Better yet, buy aluminum.
The only other non-negotiable thing is have it balanced. Mopars were awful from the factory. Its cheap to fix.
Great info
Thank you!! 
I guess I should test for compression. I will start there.
Any one know which headers will fit in a 70 Challenger BB with firm feel fast ratio steereing?
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Re: How much to build 440?
[Re: SomeCarGuy]
#1708465
12/11/14 11:22 AM
12/11/14 11:22 AM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
Pale_Roader
Swears too much
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Swears too much
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
|
Quote:
Do we know if the low comp pistons are even still in there? Sounds like a rebuild was done. ???
Have you EVER come across a rebuild that didn't have junk pistons in it? Ever? Once? I swear there is a conspiracy amongst part-counter salesmen to only sell stuff designed in the 60's. To most hot rod guys, TRW and Speed-Pro are cutting edge.
I'm betting the car its got either stock junk, jobber junk, or expensive 'cutting edge' TRW/SP junk in it. 9 times out ov 10, if the builder wanted high compression you'll find domed junk in there...
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Re: How much to build 440?
[Re: Pale_Roader]
#1708466
12/11/14 12:54 PM
12/11/14 12:54 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 21,318
Manitoba, Canada
DaytonaTurbo
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 21,318
Manitoba, Canada
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Quote:
Quote:
Do we know if the low comp pistons are even still in there? Sounds like a rebuild was done. ???
Have you EVER come across a rebuild that didn't have junk pistons in it? Ever? Once? I swear there is a conspiracy amongst part-counter salesmen to only sell stuff designed in the 60's. To most hot rod guys, TRW and Speed-Pro are cutting edge.
I'm betting the car its got either stock junk, jobber junk, or expensive 'cutting edge' TRW/SP junk in it. 9 times out ov 10, if the builder wanted high compression you'll find domed junk in there...
Hey I will take a set of "junk" Speed Pro/TRW 6-pack 2355 pistons over those crap low compression 1.912 compression height smogger era 70's pistons any day of the week. Those old 2355's may be as heavy as the stock pistons but at least they have a 2.060 compression height so you can at least get some decent squeeze out of them!
But yes I agree with you, there must be some conspiracy to sell those smogger era 440 pistons because way too many 440's are still getting them at rebuild time. It would do many a mopar guy a favor if those pistons weren't on the market anymore!
With all the lightweight modern forged and hyper pistons, there's no good reason for those old cast junkers.
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Re: How much to build 440?
[Re: DaytonaTurbo]
#1708467
12/11/14 12:58 PM
12/11/14 12:58 PM
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,161
CT
GTX MATT
master
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master
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,161
CT
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I agree with both of you. At least the old six pack TRWs will yield 9.5ish:1 on pretty much any engine. But the other junk should go. Same with the 383s, why they make all those junk jobber 8:1 jobs is beyond me, really just screws everyone over. Murpy's law applies, assume you've got 8:1 junk in most cases.
Now I need to pin those needles, got to feel that heat
Hear my motor screamin while I'm tearin up the street
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Re: How much to build 440?
[Re: 67Satty]
#1708470
12/11/14 04:04 PM
12/11/14 04:04 PM
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,161
CT
GTX MATT
master
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master
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,161
CT
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Measurable differences would likely be low, its more of a strength issue. I wouldn't hesitate to put an engine together with them. They're old but nothing wrong with them, similar to the Purpleshaft cams and 906 heads. Lots of cars have gone really fast with 2355s, six pack rods, 906 heads, and a 509 cam. The main thing with the TRWs are they're just expensive as anything else, not worth ponying up the same dough when there are better options for the same price. 
Now I need to pin those needles, got to feel that heat
Hear my motor screamin while I'm tearin up the street
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Re: How much to build 440?
[Re: Pale_Roader]
#1708472
12/11/14 06:45 PM
12/11/14 06:45 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,200
Someplace you aren't
SomeCarGuy
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,200
Someplace you aren't
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Quote:
Quote:
Do we know if the low comp pistons are even still in there? Sounds like a rebuild was done. ???
Have you EVER come across a rebuild that didn't have junk pistons in it? Ever? Once? I swear there is a conspiracy amongst part-counter salesmen to only sell stuff designed in the 60's. To most hot rod guys, TRW and Speed-Pro are cutting edge.
I'm betting the car its got either stock junk, jobber junk, or expensive 'cutting edge' TRW/SP junk in it. 9 times out ov 10, if the builder wanted high compression you'll find domed junk in there...
Uh yeah, all the time. Not all rebuilds are "reman" jobs. Who knows what he has?
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