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Losing voltage somewhere #1684514
10/11/14 05:23 PM
10/11/14 05:23 PM
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middle Tennessee
mopower440 Offline OP
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I got a 1972 dart with 440. I am using the original electronic ignition and ballast and all. sometimes in order to get the car started i have to run a jumper wire from the + side of the battery to the battery side of the coil and then run another jumper from the - side of battery to the coil mounting bracket. There is a voltage loss somewhere. When cranking the engine over the coil is only getting 7 to 8 volts and when running the coil only has 5 volts. all stock wiring. I did do the ampmeter bypass already. Any ideas where to look?
Is it possible to install the petronix kit into an ELECTRONIC distributor like you can a points unit so i can do away with all the factory crap?

Re: Losing voltage somewhere [Re: mopower440] #1684515
10/11/14 07:56 PM
10/11/14 07:56 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert Offline
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Quote:

all stock wiring. Any ideas where to look?
Is it possible to install the petronix kit into an ELECTRONIC distributor like you can a points unit so i can do away with all the factory crap?



Clean all the terminals on the firewall bulkhead (male terminal NAPA 725147) to clean the female halves and a wire brush for the male ones & koppercoat for continuity/dielectric grease to seal em away from air then as needed check running voltage drops at every terminal/connection or just clean em ALL from battery in/thru bulkhead/under dash connections/out thru bulkhead. Check/clean ground path also. EDIT For a chemical to aid in cleaning reportedly "Deoxit" is VG for cleaning terminals (I'm gonna try it). Not sure who sells it but it'd be easy to find out

Last edited by RapidRobert; 10/15/14 11:21 AM.

live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
Re: Losing voltage somewhere [Re: mopower440] #1684516
10/12/14 02:45 AM
10/12/14 02:45 AM
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Northern Calyfornua
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Sxrxrnr Offline
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Northern Calyfornua
I found on my 70 Challenger that the wiring from the ignition switch where it exits the steering column and via the 6 wire connector(plus any optional wires such as key warning) that plugs into dash harness connector is where there is opportunity for much mischief.

What happens is that the male pins from the dash harness can begin to fit loosely into their corresponding female receptibles,,,thereby causing the random electrical circuit errors that you appear to be experiencing.

I created a somewhat Bubba fix that has resolved it quite well for my problem(s) in this area. The only true/correct fix is to replace both the ignition switch and the under dash harness,,,so far I've only done the ignition switch part.

The description of my Bubba solution, though simple, requires a bunch of words to describe how. If anyone should ask, I will post what I have done that seems to be holding quite well.

Meanwhile, if you do experience a start failure, just reach down, grab hold of this connector while cranking. If engine fires off, you know where your problem lies.

Also with a test light or meter you can easily test out all these 6 wires(they all are critical to starting and running of your engine) for continuity while wiggling this 6 wire connector about.

You also might separate this connector and spray some contac cleaner about,,,this May or may not solve the problem if it proves out to be in this area.

Last edited by Sxrxrnr; 10/12/14 02:50 AM.
Re: Losing voltage somewhere [Re: mopower440] #1684517
10/12/14 10:06 AM
10/12/14 10:06 AM
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 360
Ohio
shorthorse Offline
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Ohio
Make sure you have your engine grounded to the frame. Especially if you are using rubber motor mounts. If you already have a ground strap, clean it.

Re: Losing voltage somewhere [Re: mopower440] #1684518
10/13/14 03:46 PM
10/13/14 03:46 PM
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Someplace you aren't
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SomeCarGuy Offline
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The key word in there I see is "sometimes." I would look for a loose or broken wire. First place I would check is to be sure the ECU has a good ground. I usually just run a wire to good ground and be done with it. I'm not sure what coil you have but we have debated on here plenty about how much voltage to send to one. That sure sounds like it is low.


I want my fair share
Re: Losing voltage somewhere [Re: mopower440] #1684519
10/14/14 09:25 AM
10/14/14 09:25 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,666
North Dakota
6PakBee Offline
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Sounds like the problem is not with the ignition but the power supply to the ignition. By jumpering the '+' side of the coil to the battery you are bypassing the ignition switch, ballast resistor, and wiring harness. Your problem lies somewhere there, you just have to find it. As to the coil operating at less than battery voltage, the ECU operates at full battery voltage but the coil is fed through the ballast resistor. I would recommend looking at the schematic for the ignition just to see where everything goes.


"We live in a time when intelligent people are being silenced so that stupid people won't be offended".
Re: Losing voltage somewhere [Re: mopower440] #1684520
10/14/14 10:01 AM
10/14/14 10:01 AM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,328
St. Louis, MO
mopardamo Offline
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If more than just the ignition circuit is low then check the fusible link. That wire can go bad and never appear externally that there is a problem. If there is a problem with that wire replace the whole length.

Damon

Re: Losing voltage somewhere [Re: mopower440] #1684521
10/14/14 12:32 PM
10/14/14 12:32 PM
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Posts: 1,023
pa.
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dan9 Offline
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If you are running an electric choke check where it is getting it's power.

Re: Losing voltage somewhere [Re: mopower440] #1684522
10/14/14 02:55 PM
10/14/14 02:55 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 28,063
Irving, TX
feets Offline
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Irving, TX
You obviously have a voltmeter of some kind.
Next time this problem rears it's head, start at the coil and work backwards along the system checking for resistance. When you see the ohms jump you know you've found your culprit.


We are brothers and sisters doing time on the planet for better or worse. I'll take the better, if you don't mind.
- Stu Harmon
Re: Losing voltage somewhere [Re: feets] #1684523
10/19/14 06:01 PM
10/19/14 06:01 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,863
middle Tennessee
mopower440 Offline OP
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Tired of it! Its been 1 week since i ran the car. I go out today to try and start it and it wont. It started to try and sputter so i gave it 2 more pumps of gas and then it just cranked forever. so i tried the ole trick of jumping the coil from the battery and it STILL wouldnt start and this method always gets it to start! so i did some thing that was advised here, unplugged everything at the bulkhead, all looked very good. Wiggled the wires going up the steering colum, still nothing. Sometimes when this is going on, when i finally give up and turn the key to OFF to take key out, the engine will try to hit. This is when going from the run position to the off position. Its like it gets an intermittent spark when turning the key off..Thinking of just getting a points distributor with the petronix, but damn i dont want to go through the hassle of fooling with JB welding the advance slot and all that again to get it right where this one is..

Re: Losing voltage somewhere [Re: RapidRobert] #1684524
10/19/14 07:49 PM
10/19/14 07:49 PM
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Posts: 257
Way North Idaho
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1KoolBee Offline
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Quote:

For a chemical to aid in cleaning reportedly "Deoxit" is VG for cleaning terminals (I'm gonna try it). Not sure who sells it but it'd be easy to find out




I would do all the bulkhead connector cleaning and ground checking that everyone mentioned. Also, from the symptoms you just described, it sounds like your ignition switch might be worn out. You might be able to disassemble and clean it out as a "work for awhile" fix. BTW Deoxit is manufactured by Caig Laboratories:

http://www.amazon.com/CAIG-DeOxit-Cleaning-Solution-Spray/dp/B0002BBV4G

Good stuff. Good luck.


'68 Bee 383/TF/Factory Air...high school sweetheart
'67 GTX Clone project,500 six pack,Hemi4-speed,Dana
05 Dodge Viper, 505 V-10, 6-speed Tremec
Re: Losing voltage somewhere [Re: 1KoolBee] #1684525
10/19/14 08:57 PM
10/19/14 08:57 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert Offline
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Quote:

[ BTW Deoxit is manufactured by Caig Laboratories:


Bee thank you! Mopower, sorry to hear it's gotten worse. A vacation away from it may chill the nerves. Rest assured it is something simple (you'll see )


live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
Re: Losing voltage somewhere [Re: RapidRobert] #1684526
10/19/14 10:24 PM
10/19/14 10:24 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,863
middle Tennessee
mopower440 Offline OP
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I got to thinking, It wont matter what ignition i use, weather its petronix or electronic, it will still do this because the power going to the coil is triggered by the ignition switch, and if its causing the issue or any of the wiring from it to the coil, its still going to do this, correct?
Still, jumpering the coil from the battery should eliminate this like it usually does, correct?

Re: Losing voltage somewhere [Re: mopower440] #1684527
10/20/14 12:49 AM
10/20/14 12:49 AM
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Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert Offline
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Quote:

Still, jumpering the coil from the battery should eliminate this like it usually does, correct?


yes unless it's now slightly flooded and that is enough to push it over the (no start) edge as it sounds like one or more systems are borderline. I'd check/clean the plugs and since jumping fire directly from batt to coil positive makes it start I would clean every terminal connection starting from the batt positive post to/out the bulkhead & downstream to the coil positive primary. My racing partners' truck does the exact same thing & I'm gonna do the same (cleaning terminals/connections) to it when I get around to it. since it starts by jumpering that tells you the hard parts are OK & it's a wiring issue and another ign system ain't needed


live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
Re: Losing voltage somewhere [Re: mopower440] #1684528
10/20/14 10:08 PM
10/20/14 10:08 PM
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Posts: 2,863
middle Tennessee
mopower440 Offline OP
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well, the ignition switch seems to be working. I checked voltage at the coil and its the same as its always been for the last 15 years, 5.7 volts in run and 7.7 volts when cranking. I think that is a little low, but the switch is indeed working. Still cant get it to start even when jumping the coil from battery, i think the coil is shot this time?

Re: Losing voltage somewhere [Re: mopower440] #1684529
10/21/14 02:39 AM
10/21/14 02:39 AM
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Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert Offline
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In the first post you said OE electronic ign. Is this the 5 pin OE ECU/4 terminal "dual" ballast? Pull the yellow wire off of the "ign" terminal on the starter relay to disable the starter and hold the coil secondary wire (dist end) 1/4 from the intake (ground) and seperate the zigzag dist pickup connector and drag the male terminal on the body connector half across the intake surface to make/break contact & see if the coil wire sparks with the ign key in "run" and have a helper hold it to "start" & if it sparks it points to the dist pickup/gap. Then take off all (might just be 1) wire from the coil neg primary and with a jumper wire with alligator clips on each end jump the coil neg terminal (not the wire you removed from it) to ground make/break like Morse Code (dragging it works) & same thing see if the coil wire sparks in "run" and in "start" if it sparks the coil/associated pri wireing is OK & points to the ECU or it associated wiring as the problem. Holler when you can


live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
Re: Losing voltage somewhere [Re: RapidRobert] #1684530
10/21/14 10:28 AM
10/21/14 10:28 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,863
middle Tennessee
mopower440 Offline OP
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It has the 2 prong ballast and if I remember right, a 4 pin ecu

Re: Losing voltage somewhere [Re: mopower440] #1684531
10/21/14 11:41 AM
10/21/14 11:41 AM
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Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert Offline
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Alright, with a 2 prong "single" ballast it'll have a 4 pin ECU or a replacement 5 pin ECU & on them the 5th pin is a dummy (it dont go anywhere/infinity continuity). OE 5 pin ECU's have a functioning 5th pin & require the 4 prong (dual) ballast. At this point I should not have asked what "system" it has as that info ain't needed right now. Go ahead with the tests if you would & holler back when you can


live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
Re: Losing voltage somewhere [Re: RapidRobert] #1684532
10/21/14 08:50 PM
10/21/14 08:50 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,863
middle Tennessee
mopower440 Offline OP
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ok, my jumper wire i was using from the battery to coil was bad, got another wire and the coil seems to be ok. Still wont start, i think its flooded. I would have thought the plugs would be dried by now though, its been 2 days..

I think i want to replace the ignition with one that has some 'Balls' anyway. We have this spark checker at work that we use on the cadillacs, its shaped kinda like a spark plug that you clip to the side of the block and hook a plug wire to it and when you crank the engine over, a spark will jump on it if all is well. Even when my car is running, the ignition system is not strong enough to make a spark on the test tool.. any recomendations on a good strong but simple ignition? I dont have the money for a big msd crank trigger setup, so nothing like that. Would the petronix setup inside an old points distributor be stronger? Also, i want a coil that does not need a ballast..

Last edited by mopower440; 10/21/14 09:55 PM.
Re: Losing voltage somewhere [Re: mopower440] #1684533
10/22/14 03:15 PM
10/22/14 03:15 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,863
middle Tennessee
mopower440 Offline OP
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?????

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