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Re: Losing voltage somewhere
[Re: skicker]
#1684554
10/24/14 12:48 PM
10/24/14 12:48 PM
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Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
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The eng must be cranking to have a valid voltage drop reading. your ground path is OK as it will start when you jump fire from batt to coil. Jumping batt to coil directly lets it fire so the poor connection/continuity is somewhere along that path in the ign2 brown wire "crank" ign circuit. I would (1) jump batt to fusible link terminal in bulkhead with a probe. (2) jump batt to brown wire ign2 "out" terminal in bulkhead with a probe. if it will start doing (1) then the problem is the FL has broken strands or poor continuity on its ends or somewhere back to the batt path. If it wont start in (1) but will using (2) then the problem is in the rear firewall half of the bulkhead or the ign switch/wiring from bulkhead to/from ign sw including steering col pull apart connector (if used in your app). If it wont start in (1) or (2) then the poor continuity is between the bulkhead brown wire "out" terminal to the coil positive primary terminal (loose/corroded terminal/wire in that path)
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Re: Losing voltage somewhere
[Re: RapidRobert]
#1684555
10/24/14 09:41 PM
10/24/14 09:41 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
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middle Tennessee
mopower440
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ok, did some testing, INSIDE the car at the bulkhead, the main red power wire has battery voltage. so thats good. At the big connector from the steering column, the main red power wire still has battery voltage ( like 12.7 volts), still good. NOW, When switching the ignition switch to run, that main red wire from the column drops to 11.7, but i figure thats probably ok since it is sending voltage to different parts of the car, correct? Ok, So in run, that main wire has 11.7, if i turn the key to start, and probe that brown wire right beside it in that same column connector, ( the one that powers the coil at full battery voltage when starting)it sends out 11.5, so i would guess thats good also being the main power wire is 11.7 in run? That same brown wire coming out of the bulkhead under the hood is still 11.5 volts when cranking, so good..? (keep in mind i have the starter disabled doing this.. so, i have some voltage drop between the underhood bulkhead brown wire to the coil + for sure, because i only had 8 or 10 volts at the coil when in start..tell me your thoughts on the other numbers..? Somehow i need to get full battery voltage to that damn coil when starting because its always been a problem getting it to start after sitting a week or so without jumping the coil to the battery.. Wondering if i could run a wire from the starter solenoid to the coil so it would trigger under the start condition only like i need it to and put the full battery voltage to it..???? 
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Re: Losing voltage somewhere
[Re: mopower440]
#1684557
10/25/14 07:49 PM
10/25/14 07:49 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
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With a long jumper with alligator clips jump from the batt positive post to the coil positive terminal & get it started for a minute. shut it off & take the alligator clip off of the coil and clip it to the downstream (brown wire) end of the ballast & see if it will restart. If so then shut it off & move the alligator clip to the next connection point upstream in the brown wire (ign2) circuit which should be the bulkhead (clip a thin probe in the alligator clip jaws & insert it into the bulkhead cavity to touch that terminal) & see if it will start. Shut it off & move the probe to the FL main "in" terminal closeby in the bulkhead & see if it will start. then shut it off & move the clip to the next terminal closer to the batt which might be the starter relay "batt" large terminal & see if it will start. If it wont start at any of these checkpoints then the high resistance is between that point & the one preceding it where it would start.
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: Losing voltage somewhere
[Re: RapidRobert]
#1684558
10/25/14 08:10 PM
10/25/14 08:10 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
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middle Tennessee
mopower440
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ok guys, been out there for a while doing some tests and i need some expert knowledge here. I am thinking this car is supposed to have a dual ballast resister and someone may have wired things up wrong and running a single ballast. Now, i am not sure about this but the way its wired up does not make sense. Lets start with a pic..  Ok, The left plug to the ballsat has 3 wires, all 3 tied into the one plug. They are going to the voltage regulator, the bulkhead, and to a pin on the ECM. On the right side is 2 brown wires, It comes from the bulkhead and is the 'start' circuit which provides the full battery voltage to the coil when starting. ok, when its all connected to the ballast like in the pic, we get 6.5 volts at the coil in 'run' and only 10.5 when in 'start'. (keep in mind the starter is disabled so would be much lower if it was being activated..) so the 6.5 volts in 'run' is about right. but when in start, the 10.5 is a little low. ok, now, if i unhook the brown wires (right side) from the ballast, the coil gets the full 13 volts when turning the key to 'start'! Ok, if i hook the brown wires (right side of ballast) back up to the ballast and unplug the left side wires of ballast, i still get 13 volts to the coil when turning the key to 'start'! Now, if i unplug both plugs from the ballast and jumper them together, i get the same 10.5 volts at the coil when turning the key to 'start'! There is something not right here but not sure what. I dont know why, but when both plugs are tied together, whether through the ballast or jumpered together with a wire, it knocks the 'start' voltage down to 10.5 volts for some reason. But, like i said, if both sides are not connected through the ballast or a jumper wire, i get the full 13 volts AT the coil like i need when turning the key to 'start' . I may be wrong and it is wired up right but i dont know. Im wondering if someone before me converted it to electronic ignition and was supposed to wire it for a dual ballast and instead just tied it all together and used a single ballast. anyone know for sure by how i described its wired to the ballast? Thanks HELP!!
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Re: Losing voltage somewhere
[Re: mopower440]
#1684560
10/25/14 09:16 PM
10/25/14 09:16 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
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You are wired correct (& it did start at one time) and the soldered in green wire w red tracer is required for an OE type 5 pin (5 pins are functioning) ECU and it just dead ends now in the pentastar connector & that ain't causing you any problems with your 4 pin ECU & you would need that (green/red tr wire) if you ever subbed back in an OE 5 pin ECU. we will get his solved! Grab that alligator clip jumper & work backward from the coil positive primary. There is poor continuity in some connection between batt/coil pos pri cuz jumping directly from batt to coil pos pri does let it fire up
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: Losing voltage somewhere
[Re: RapidRobert]
#1684561
10/25/14 10:17 PM
10/25/14 10:17 PM
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middle Tennessee
mopower440
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all the wiring is checking out fine though. Like i say, the brown wire in the right side of the ballast that is the bypass wire does indeed send all 13 volts to the battery in start mode, but only when its not combined with the 'run' (left side, blue wiring) of the ballast. For some reason when combined, weather through the ballast or directly jumpered together, it makes the 'start' voltage drop to 10.5. Very weird, like each side messes with the other. If each side is separated, i get 13 volts on the 'run' side, and 13 volts when cranking the key to start on the 'start' side. but again, when they are attached either by straight jumpering, or through the ballast, the run side makes the 'start' mode drop voltage to 10.5.. Makes no sense because on the bypass side of the ballast (start side), its a straight shot to the coil and it does shoot the full 13 volts to it, but when its linked with the wires from the other side of the ballast, thats what gets it.
Only thing i am NOW questioning is this..I just was looking at a diagram on the web and it says that:
Ignition 1 has power in BOTH run and start. Feeds the coil+ through the ballast resistor at reduced voltage.
Ignition 2 has FULL battery power ONLY in START and is a bypass circuit to send full voltage directly to the + side of the coil to increase voltage output for starting.
ok, ignition 1 has power 'BOTH IN RUN AND START'
On mine, the voltage on the RUN side goes dead when in start mode, It toggles back and forth. So when the key is in RUN, it has power from the bulkhead as its supposed to, BUT, when cranking the key to 'start', the power from the 'run' circuit goes to zero and the 'start circuit' powers up, then when i release the key back to run, the 'run' side power comes back. SO, which is correct, the way mine is doing or what i read? If there is supposed to still be power in 'RUN' at the same time its in 'start', then this is a problem because like i said, with mine, its either run or start..I think they are probably wrong and the power on the 'run' side is supposed to go out the bypass 'start' circuit powers the coil..but i may be wrong...
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Re: Losing voltage somewhere
[Re: RapidRobert]
#1684562
10/25/14 10:20 PM
10/25/14 10:20 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,863
middle Tennessee
mopower440
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Quote:
You are wired correct (& it did start at one time) and the soldered in green wire w red tracer is required for an OE type 5 pin (5 pins are functioning) ECU and it just dead ends now in the pentastar connector & that ain't causing you any problems with your 4 pin ECU & you would need that (green/red tr wire) if you ever subbed back in an OE 5 pin ECU. we will get his solved! Grab that alligator clip jumper & work backward from the coil positive primary. There is poor continuity in some connection between batt/coil pos pri cuz jumping directly from batt to coil pos pri does let it fire up
Robert, also, that green and red wire you see soldered is actually the light blue/yellow wire at the ECU, I had to extend the wire years ago to re-arrange things for the big block..
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Re: Losing voltage somewhere
[Re: RapidRobert]
#1684564
10/25/14 10:56 PM
10/25/14 10:56 PM
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middle Tennessee
mopower440
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Ill have to check again tomorrow, seems like almost 8, like 7.7 or something. Its not quite enough tho because its always hell to get started after sitting unless i jumper the coil..I think ive had enough of chasing this. I mean everything checks out, each side of the ballast has the right voltage until you combine the 2, via the ballast or jumpering, and thats when the 'start' voltage drops 2.5 volts. SO, what i want to do now is buy that little adapter plate that bolts to the bottom of my stock distributor and mounts a GM HEI module to it and run a e-core coil and have some serious voltage. But i have a new question for that..They want a full 12 volt source at all times to run it, nothing less. Where is a good keyed on 12 volt source to tap into for this setup? Thanks Robert, this is what im wanting to do http://www.designed2drive.com/
Last edited by mopower440; 10/25/14 11:12 PM.
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Re: Losing voltage somewhere
[Re: mopower440]
#1684565
10/25/14 11:31 PM
10/25/14 11:31 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
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keyed on 12 v source (switched 12V) would be the blue wire coming from the bulkhead. You would also tie the brown ign 2 "crank" wire to the blue wire so the HEI and the coil get fed full 12v in start and in run. In '83 I ran an OE electronic dist with an HEI module from a '75 chebby and an accell super coil the big yellow beast with no ballast. it started instantly & ran Ok afaik. Accell later told me to run a .8 or .7 (dont remember which) ballast with it but it did not burn out & you always have alot of leeway on how much ballast you can get by with. Dont forget the heat sink paste between module/alum block. Holler how it runs out. You know I'm wondering if one of your hard components is borderline & the slight voltage drop is just enough to make it non functioning (wont start). I would never suggest shotgunning parts at a problem but if you have parts (I have tons & tons) you might sub in another coil then another ECU then the pickup cuz it's the hardest to change & your gap is good correct? (.008")
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: Losing voltage somewhere
[Re: RapidRobert]
#1684566
10/25/14 11:43 PM
10/25/14 11:43 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,863
middle Tennessee
mopower440
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Quote:
keyed on 12 v source (switched 12V) would be the blue wire coming from the bulkhead. You would also tie the brown ign 2 "crank" wire to the blue wire so the HEI and the coil get fed full 12v in start and in run. In '83 I ran an OE electronic dist with an HEI module from a '75 chebby and an accell super coil the big yellow beast with no ballast. it started instantly & ran Ok afaik. Accell later told me to run a .8 or .7 (dont remember which) ballast with it but it did not burn out & you always have alot of leeway on how much ballast you can get by with. Dont forget the heat sink paste between module/alum block. Holler how it runs out. You know I'm wondering if one of your hard components is borderline & the slight voltage drop is just enough to make it non functioning (wont start). I would never suggest shotgunning parts at a problem but if you have parts (I have tons & tons) you might sub in another coil then another ECU then the pickup cuz it's the hardest to change & your gap is good correct? (.008")
well, thats my problem now tho, the blue wire has full voltage in 'run', but goes dead when turning the key to 'start' and the brown wire kicks in, if the blue wire stayed hot while cranking, that would be good, but it does not. If i tie the brown 'start' wire in with it to fix that problem, they mess with each other, like they are now, and wont get the full 12 volts, like im not currently. I would have the same issues..
Is there any other good keyed 12 volt sources on this thing?
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Re: Losing voltage somewhere
[Re: mopower440]
#1684567
10/26/14 12:20 AM
10/26/14 12:20 AM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
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the blue wire does go dead when you turn the key to crank & juice flows back thru the ballast over to the blue wire side then out to the ECU as it too needs to be fed in "crank". If you go with an ECU (HEI) and an E coil & both are designed for full on 12V (no ballast) then yes you would T the blue and brown wires together then when it starts you also have current in the brown wire circuit from the blue wire cuz they are tied together but it (the brown wire) dead ends back at the ign sw "ign2" terminal & there's no problems with that. The Carbonaro effect is on so I will check back tomorrow
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: Losing voltage somewhere
[Re: RapidRobert]
#1684568
10/26/14 12:32 AM
10/26/14 12:32 AM
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middle Tennessee
mopower440
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Quote:
the blue wire does go dead when you turn the key to crank & juice flows back thru the ballast over to the blue wire side then out to the ECU as it too needs to be fed in "crank". If you go with an ECU (HEI) and an E coil & both are designed for full on 12V (no ballast) then yes you would T the blue and brown wires together then when it starts you also have current in the brown wire circuit from the blue wire cuz they are tied together but it (the brown wire) dead ends back at the ign sw "ign2" terminal & there's no problems with that. The Carbonaro effect is on so I will check back tomorrow
yes but what im saying is that when the 2 sides are tied together, as they are now, they screw with eachother and drop the voltage down less than 12 volts, hence, the problem im currently having..like i described earlier, separated, the blue side has full battery voltage in 'run' and the brown side has full voltage in 'start', but combine the 2 sides either by the ballast, OR, jumpering them together, and the voltage drops 2.5 volts from full battery voltage. No explanation for why this happens..
The Hei conversion says it HAS to have a full 12 volts at all times or it wont live..
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Re: Losing voltage somewhere
[Re: RapidRobert]
#1684570
10/26/14 02:19 AM
10/26/14 02:19 AM
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mopower440
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Quote:
Quote:
separated, the blue side has full battery voltage in 'run' and the brown side has full voltage in 'start', but combine the 2 sides either by the ballast, OR, jumpering them together, and the voltage drops 2.5 volts from full battery voltage.
The Hei conversion says it HAS to have a full 12 volts at all times or it wont live..
The brown side will always drop several volts at least from the starter draw. The brown side cannot have 12+ volts during cranking cuz the starter draws alot & will drops to ~10 V or so whether it is tied to the blue wire circuit or not. If you tie the two together the 10+ during cranking will be enough to fire the HEI and when it starts it'll be fed 13+, the normal charging voltage
The starter is disabled right now, so its not drawing it down. The brown bypass wire puts out a full 13 volts when turning the key to start with the starter disabled, which is perfect. The blue 'run' wire also puts out 13 volts when the key is in run, also perfect. Now, this is with the wires not jumpered together or linked together through the ballast! Now, if i hook them to the ballast like its supposed to be, OR, just jumper them together, the voltage when in start drops to 10.5, a whole 2.5 volts less. So, if i jumper them together to run the HEI, it will still drop to 10.5. Everything im reading says its got to have at least 12 all the time..Like i said, separated, the blue 'run' wire and the brown bypass 'start' wire put out 13 volts, which indicates no voltage drop through the bulkhead, BUT, jumper them together, OR, hook them to the ballast as they are supposed to be and the 'start' voltage drops to 10.5. Makes no damn sense. Why linking the 2 sides together causes this is unexplainable..
SO, Im thinking, get a relay and use the old blue and brown ballast wires to trigger it and pull power from the starter relay to power the new setup. What relay do i use for this, a 4 or 5 pin? Thoughts?
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Re: Losing voltage somewhere
[Re: mopower440]
#1684571
10/26/14 01:50 PM
10/26/14 01:50 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
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Quote:
The brown bypass wire puts out a full 13 volts when turning the key to start which is perfect. The blue 'run' wire also puts out 13 volts when the key is in run, also perfect. Now, this is with the wires not jumpered together or linked together through the ballast! Now, if i hook them to the ballast like its supposed to be, OR, just jumper them together, the voltage when in start drops to 10.5, a whole 2.5 volts less. So, if i jumper them together to run the HEI, it will still drop to 10.5. Everything im reading says its got to have at least 12 all the time..Like i said, separated, the blue 'run' wire and the brown bypass 'start' wire put out 13 volts, which indicates no voltage drop through the bulkhead, BUT, jumper them together, OR, hook them to the ballast as they are supposed to be and the 'start' voltage drops to 10.5. Makes no damn sense. Why linking the 2 sides together causes this is unexplainable. Thoughts?
showing 13V on either of the female ballast connectors dangling in the air does not show voltage drop since there is no load. If there is at least 1 micro strand of wire from batt to dangling connector(s) you would still show 13 Volts (pressure). As soon as there's a load and current starts to flow then there is a voltage drop cuz one strand of wire cannot handle the amount of amperage that a given device will draw so checking the dangling ends in run and in start only shows basic continuity is in place (13V) but not if there is adequate continuity for alot of amperage which is why your original jumping did let it start. Connecting the (2) female connectors to the ballast ends will show a drop (10.5) in crank cuz the current to the brown wire end is being reduced as it moves across the ballast to the blue wire side (& current drawing devices are on/out from the blue wire side). Short version: Tie the blue/brown wires together & 10.5 will be enough to fire the HEI (trust me). Now if you are saying that the dangling blue and brown wires each have 13V respectively but you connect the female ends to each other with a jumper with alligator clips (no ballast/nothing else in the picture) & then it has 10.5 (now is that run or crank or both) then yes that does not make sense as I dont see any added load but there has to be for it to be dropping from 13 to 10.5 so I am missing something. What I would do is with them jumpered together with your meter probes on the batt neg/pos posts see (1) what you have in "run" and (2) in "crank" and keep the neg probe on batt neg post & (3) connect positive probe to your blue/brown jumper connection & see what you have in (4) "run" and (5) in "crank". Holler back when you can 
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: Losing voltage somewhere
[Re: RapidRobert]
#1684572
10/26/14 03:34 PM
10/26/14 03:34 PM
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middle Tennessee
mopower440
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'quote'
Now if you are saying that the dangling blue and brown wires each have 13V respectively but you connect the female ends to each other with a jumper with alligator clips (no ballast/nothing else in the picture) & then it has 10.5 (now is that run or crank or both) then yes that does not make sense as I dont see any added load but there has to be for it to be dropping from 13 to 10.5 so I am missing something.
yes, that is what im saying, and it drops to 10.5 when in 'crank' when tied together like this. I figure out mostly what it was, The ECU. If i leave the 2 female ends jumpered together like we are talking about and unplug the ECU, the voltage stays up past 12 when in crank mode, so thats whats robbing it! So, the ECU will be unplugged anyways when going to HEI so thats all good. Anyways, after it sitting for 5 damn days, it still would not start, so i swapped out all the plugs for some used ones i had on the shelf to get it running. Thats how weak this ignition is! The plugs i pulled out were barely damp, not dripping or anything, just barely damp, and it wouldnt start. SO i will be doing an HEI soon, im tired of having to replace the plugs everytime this happens as its a [Edited by Moparts - Family Friendly Site - Keep it clean] with the headers! I dont get it, the 440 we had in the dirtcar ALWAYS fired right up. It had the old points distributor with the petronix in it with stock ballast. Quick fuel carb with no choke. It alsways fired up no matter how long it sat. Just a few pumps of the throttle, hit the key, and VROOM!!!Likie an explosion!
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