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mini-starter woes.. #1666030
09/01/14 01:30 AM
09/01/14 01:30 AM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,827
Houston, Tx
hemi68charger Offline OP
master
hemi68charger  Offline OP
master

Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,827
Houston, Tx
Hey gang..
Well, got the 426 Hemi going in the Daytona. She started fine initially but the started to act funny. Soon found out that the, for a lack of the appropriate term, the cone part of the starter case cracked. Then I put another new starter in and that darn one doesn't act right. Come to find out the gear teeth of the starter isn't fully seating the converter ring gear teeth. Based on the shiney part of the ring gear teeth, less than half of the surface of the teeth are meshing together. Anyone have this problem before? To get the teeth more fully engaged, do I need to find a better performance minded starter or get one that "clocks"?

The left starter is the first one in which the case broke and the right one is the one I replaced it with. It is the one where the teeth aren't fully engaging now.

Last edited by hemi68charger; 09/01/14 01:44 AM.

Troy
Houston Mopar Connection Club
'69 Charger Daytona 440 - auto - 4.10 Dana (now with 426 hemi)
'69 Charger 500 440 - 4speed - 3.54 Dana
'70 Road Runner 383 - 4speed - a/c (now with 440)
Re: mini-starter woes.. [Re: hemi68charger] #1666031
09/01/14 05:42 AM
09/01/14 05:42 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,180
Detroit, MI
CokeBottleKid Offline
master
CokeBottleKid  Offline
master

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,180
Detroit, MI
Somethings wrong... look at your bellhousing or converter.... pics are helpful.

Re: mini-starter woes.. [Re: CokeBottleKid] #1666032
09/01/14 09:38 AM
09/01/14 09:38 AM
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 4,154
bethlehem pa
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mikemee1331 Offline
master
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bethlehem pa
did you just put everything back together or has this been a running, driving car and the starter broke? this almost sounds like an alignment issue but some history would be helpful.

Re: mini-starter woes.. [Re: mikemee1331] #1666033
09/01/14 09:56 AM
09/01/14 09:56 AM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,239
north of coder
moparx Offline
"Butt Crack Bob"
moparx  Offline
"Butt Crack Bob"

Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,239
north of coder
if i'm not mistaken, some blocks need a slight grinding of the casting where the starter bolts up to prevent breaking[cracking] the nose piece as shown. the only one i have ran into that problem with is the mockup block i am using on my humpback project. after discovering that issue, since it is for mockup purposes and the block is junk anyway, i just have the starter attached with one bolt. if i were going to use that block, the grinder would come out to clearance the block as needed.

Re: mini-starter woes.. [Re: moparx] #1666034
09/01/14 10:05 AM
09/01/14 10:05 AM
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 4,154
bethlehem pa
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mikemee1331 Offline
master
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bethlehem pa
Quote:

if i'm not mistaken, some blocks need a slight grinding of the casting where the starter bolts up to prevent breaking[cracking] the nose piece as shown./quote]
yep, shoot Commando1 a PM. he can fill you in.

Re: mini-starter woes.. [Re: mikemee1331] #1666035
09/01/14 11:22 AM
09/01/14 11:22 AM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,827
Houston, Tx
hemi68charger Offline OP
master
hemi68charger  Offline OP
master

Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,827
Houston, Tx
The complete drivetrain was installed a couple of months ago; new everything. Previously, the 440 was in there with this tranny. The starter was the conventional starter of the era, no problems. I bolted everything up and installed as a complete drivetrain. Initially, the starter seemed to operate perfectly, then over time, something started to sound wrong. The problem sound steadily got worse until one day, the starter would just activate, but the motor wouldn't turn over. The torque converter is a brand new unit as well. A couple of days ago I removed the old starter and installed the new one. Right off the bat, the new one didn't sound right. A friend came over last night and we took off the inspection plate to the tranny and noticed the paint on the ring gear teeth was only worn off at about a 1/4 of the teeth's depth. That seems to indicate the teeth from the starter aren't reaching deep enough with the teeth of the converter and slipping occasionally. This must be the weird sound from the new one..... It does about three revolutions and the pitch of the sound goes higher ( maybe that's when the starter free spins for a nano-second as the teeth don't contact? Only guessing. My friend stated there are starters in which I can adjust such that the gears of the starter is closer to the ring gear of the converter and hence, well have deeper meshing of teeth.


Troy
Houston Mopar Connection Club
'69 Charger Daytona 440 - auto - 4.10 Dana (now with 426 hemi)
'69 Charger 500 440 - 4speed - 3.54 Dana
'70 Road Runner 383 - 4speed - a/c (now with 440)
Re: mini-starter woes.. [Re: hemi68charger] #1666036
09/01/14 11:26 AM
09/01/14 11:26 AM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,153
Mass
DAYCLONA Offline
I Live Here
DAYCLONA  Offline
I Live Here

Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,153
Mass
I recommended the PowerMaster minis a while back in one of your threads, NEVER had an issue with any of the one I've installed, I've had some installed for over a decade, the only thing they ever needed was the positive stud shortened to avoid clearance issues with the block...

everyone else that uses the factory supplied units, seems to have issues of some sort, Powermaster also has a "clockable" unit for HEMI/big tube header use, little spendy, IIRC about $300-$350


Mike

Re: mini-starter woes.. [Re: DAYCLONA] #1666037
09/01/14 11:44 AM
09/01/14 11:44 AM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,827
Houston, Tx
hemi68charger Offline OP
master
hemi68charger  Offline OP
master

Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,827
Houston, Tx
Quote:

I recommended the PowerMaster minis a while back in one of your threads, NEVER had an issue with any of the one I've installed, I've had some installed for over a decade, the only thing they ever needed was the positive stud shortened to avoid clearance issues with the block...

everyone else that uses the factory supplied units, seems to have issues of some sort, Powermaster also has a "clockable" unit for HEMI/big tube header use, little spendy, IIRC about $300-$350


Mike




Yes, you mentioned it, but never knew there were "issues" with the factory units. It's my understanding after going to the Powermaster site the "clockable" units are for the HEMI 4speeds because of their unique bellhousings?

Mike, do you get the 9513 or 9523?

http://www.powermastermotorsports.com/200_ft_-lb__starters.html


Troy
Houston Mopar Connection Club
'69 Charger Daytona 440 - auto - 4.10 Dana (now with 426 hemi)
'69 Charger 500 440 - 4speed - 3.54 Dana
'70 Road Runner 383 - 4speed - a/c (now with 440)
Re: mini-starter woes.. [Re: hemi68charger] #1666038
09/01/14 11:55 AM
09/01/14 11:55 AM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,153
Mass
DAYCLONA Offline
I Live Here
DAYCLONA  Offline
I Live Here

Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,153
Mass
Quote:

Quote:

I recommended the PowerMaster minis a while back in one of your threads, NEVER had an issue with any of the one I've installed, I've had some installed for over a decade, the only thing they ever needed was the positive stud shortened to avoid clearance issues with the block...

everyone else that uses the factory supplied units, seems to have issues of some sort, Powermaster also has a "clockable" unit for HEMI/big tube header use, little spendy, IIRC about $300-$350


Mike




Yes, you mentioned it, but never knew there were "issues" with the factory units. It's my understanding after going to the Powermaster site the "clockable" units are for the HEMI 4speeds because of their unique bellhousings?

Mike, do you get the 9513 or 9523?

http://www.powermastermotorsports.com/200_ft_-lb__starters.html






I've seen too many issues using the factory units behind the 2nd gen HEMI, they're even taxed behind mild street wedges,... seeing that you have the TTI's the clockable unit is the way to go...what HEMI block are you running?


Mike

Re: mini-starter woes.. [Re: DAYCLONA] #1666039
09/01/14 12:11 PM
09/01/14 12:11 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,827
Houston, Tx
hemi68charger Offline OP
master
hemi68charger  Offline OP
master

Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,827
Houston, Tx
Quote:

...

I've seen too many issues using the factory units behind the 2nd gen HEMI, they're even taxed behind mild street wedges,... seeing that you have the TTI's the clockable unit is the way to go...what HEMI block are you running?

Mike




I believe it is a Mopar Performance block. Because the rotating assembly is a 440, the torque converter was ordered to reflect that. So, the casting of the block "Starter ear" can be off compared to the original '69 440 I had in the car? This was the same tranny I used with the 440. The unit itself clears rather nicely with TTI headers, so I don't think there's an issue there. The main issue I can see thus far is the complete alignment of the teeth together and fully. I think that's where the "clockable" functionality comes into play for me if needed...


Troy
Houston Mopar Connection Club
'69 Charger Daytona 440 - auto - 4.10 Dana (now with 426 hemi)
'69 Charger 500 440 - 4speed - 3.54 Dana
'70 Road Runner 383 - 4speed - a/c (now with 440)
Re: mini-starter woes.. [Re: hemi68charger] #1666040
09/01/14 02:47 PM
09/01/14 02:47 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,153
Mass
DAYCLONA Offline
I Live Here
DAYCLONA  Offline
I Live Here

Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,153
Mass
Quote:

Quote:

...

I've seen too many issues using the factory units behind the 2nd gen HEMI, they're even taxed behind mild street wedges,... seeing that you have the TTI's the clockable unit is the way to go...what HEMI block are you running?

Mike




I believe it is a Mopar Performance block. Because the rotating assembly is a 440, the torque converter was ordered to reflect that. So, the casting of the block "Starter ear" can be off compared to the original '69 440 I had in the car? This was the same tranny I used with the 440. The unit itself clears rather nicely with TTI headers, so I don't think there's an issue there. The main issue I can see thus far is the complete alignment of the teeth together and fully. I think that's where the "clockable" functionality comes into play for me if needed...






I've seen no issues with the old MP blocks other than the positive stud interference, World blocks on the other hand require some block massaging for starter clearance....I don't waste my time on the factory issued starters, Power Master units are the only ones that I run

Mike

Re: mini-starter woes.. [Re: DAYCLONA] #1666041
09/01/14 02:58 PM
09/01/14 02:58 PM
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 5,180
upstate western ny
sogtx Offline
master
sogtx  Offline
master

Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 5,180
upstate western ny
Do you have a shim installed ?

Re: mini-starter woes.. [Re: hemi68charger] #1666042
09/01/14 02:58 PM
09/01/14 02:58 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,746
Ontario, Canada
Dodgem Offline
master
Dodgem  Offline
master

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,746
Ontario, Canada
Happens with some starter gets held on angle by block and it breaks. grind the block and or the starter right on the crease that touches the block. I have one on the shelf looks just like that had a freind have the same problem with a mega block. mine was a stock block you could see where it wore the paint off the block.

Re: mini-starter woes.. [Re: Dodgem] #1666043
09/01/14 03:10 PM
09/01/14 03:10 PM
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 5,180
upstate western ny
sogtx Offline
master
sogtx  Offline
master

Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 5,180
upstate western ny
My starter cracked twice til i shimmed it

8257821-image.jpg (192 downloads)
Re: mini-starter woes.. [Re: sogtx] #1666044
09/01/14 04:38 PM
09/01/14 04:38 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,827
Houston, Tx
hemi68charger Offline OP
master
hemi68charger  Offline OP
master

Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,827
Houston, Tx
Quote:

My starter cracked twice til i shimmed it




My problem is the teeth of the starter, when engaged, doesn't mesh all the way with the ring gear. It's like a "finger-tip" engagement. The shim, if I understand, modifies the forward/aft positioning of the starter relative to the torque converter... ???


Troy
Houston Mopar Connection Club
'69 Charger Daytona 440 - auto - 4.10 Dana (now with 426 hemi)
'69 Charger 500 440 - 4speed - 3.54 Dana
'70 Road Runner 383 - 4speed - a/c (now with 440)
Re: mini-starter woes.. [Re: hemi68charger] #1666045
09/01/14 04:47 PM
09/01/14 04:47 PM
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 4,154
bethlehem pa
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mikemee1331 Offline
master
mikemee1331  Offline
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Posts: 4,154
bethlehem pa
Quote:

Quote:

My starter cracked twice til i shimmed it




My problem is the teeth of the starter, when engaged, doesn't mesh all the way with the ring gear. It's like a "finger-tip" engagement. The shim, if I understand, modifies the forward/aft positioning of the starter relative to the torque converter... ???



shims can also be used for side to side adjustment.

Re: mini-starter woes.. [Re: hemi68charger] #1666046
09/01/14 05:15 PM
09/01/14 05:15 PM
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 18,880
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R
RSNOMO Offline
Moparts Torchbearer
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Quote:



I believe it is a Mopar Performance block. Because the rotating assembly is a 440, the torque converter was ordered to reflect that.




There's your issue...

A one-piece shim is only going to move the starter body out away from the flywheel...


If you know for certain that the alignment at the block is true, I'd next go for a measurement to see what kind of depth you need for proper engagement at the ring gear...

Might be tricky...


(Give Wes a call at Mancini Racing...

He's been around MP for a while...

Run yer issue by him and see if he's heard anything)...

Re: mini-starter woes.. [Re: RSNOMO] #1666047
09/01/14 06:28 PM
09/01/14 06:28 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,827
Houston, Tx
hemi68charger Offline OP
master
hemi68charger  Offline OP
master

Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,827
Houston, Tx
Quote:

Quote:



I believe it is a Mopar Performance block. Because the rotating assembly is a 440, the torque converter was ordered to reflect that.




There's your issue...

A one-piece shim is only going to move the starter body out away from the flywheel...


If you know for certain that the alignment at the block is true, I'd next go for a measurement to see what kind of depth you need for proper engagement at the ring gear...

Might be tricky...


(Give Wes a call at Mancini Racing...

He's been around MP for a while...

Run yer issue by him and see if he's heard anything)...




OK, I'm trying to understand this..... When it comes to the relationship of the tranny, converter, starter, everything is 440.. No different than what I had before other than a block with hemi-heads on it.... I didn't figure the casting of the blocks in that area were any different from a 440 to a 426 Hemi block.. I'll call Powermaster and Mancini tomorrow or Wed..

Thanks everyone.......


Troy
Houston Mopar Connection Club
'69 Charger Daytona 440 - auto - 4.10 Dana (now with 426 hemi)
'69 Charger 500 440 - 4speed - 3.54 Dana
'70 Road Runner 383 - 4speed - a/c (now with 440)
Re: mini-starter woes.. [Re: hemi68charger] #1666048
09/01/14 08:52 PM
09/01/14 08:52 PM
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 5,180
upstate western ny
sogtx Offline
master
sogtx  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 5,180
upstate western ny
I think that the starter goes too far into the bell , cracks
Then u lose alignment and selenoid doesnt engage
Far enough .

Re: mini-starter woes.. [Re: sogtx] #1666049
09/01/14 09:13 PM
09/01/14 09:13 PM
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 4,154
bethlehem pa
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mikemee1331 Offline
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mikemee1331  Offline
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Posts: 4,154
bethlehem pa
Quote:

I think that the starter goes too far into the bell , cracks
Then u lose alignment and selenoid doesnt engage
Far enough .



hence the reason folks grind the nose down

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