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Mcleod twin disc clutch trouble
#1637645
06/23/14 07:58 PM
06/23/14 07:58 PM
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,169
clarks summit pa
73cuda340
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clarks summit pa
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I just put a new Mcleod twin disc clutch in my cuda. No matter where I adjust the clutch on the adjusting rod, it wants to go overcenter. I cant even drive the car, that's how far out the adjustment is. I measured everything with feeler gauges when installing and according to the instruction sheet they were within tolerance. The only way I can get the clutch to not go overcenter is if I have the rod backed off almost the entire way, but then the pedal is about a little past quarter way from the floor when its all the way up. All the linkage is brand new, new z bar and all new bushings too so nothing is worn out. Has anybody else had any problems with these? It has been nothing but a problem since I bought it.
1973 Cuda 528 all aluminum Hemi, 4 speed, 3.23 Sure-Grip,
(JA5) Silver Frost Metallic
1973 Challenger Rallye 340
1985 W150 Power Ram prospector
1986 Camaro IROC-Z 305 tpi
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Re: Mcleod twin disc clutch trouble
[Re: 71yelladustr]
#1637647
06/23/14 08:55 PM
06/23/14 08:55 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,157
Mass
DAYCLONA
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Quote:
May have to remove the large over-center spring on the pedal assembly. I had to do this on my duster so the clutch had some "feel" to it after I put the Mcleod DD in. 
Agreed,if the over center spring is present, it's got to go
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Re: Mcleod twin disc clutch trouble
[Re: 73cuda340]
#1637649
06/23/14 10:32 PM
06/23/14 10:32 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,065
Niles , Ohio
therocks
oh wait.but hey.lets see.oh yeah.
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oh wait.but hey.lets see.oh yeah.
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,065
Niles , Ohio
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Do you have a small return spring on the fork?It should have one.Rocky
Chrysler Firepower
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Re: Mcleod twin disc clutch trouble
[Re: 73cuda340]
#1637653
06/24/14 06:11 PM
06/24/14 06:11 PM
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Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 10,552
Rittman Ohio
fourgearsavoy
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Have you adjusted the free-play until the pedal is hard at the top yet? Then back it off till you have about one inch of free-play at the top. After you do that then check your plate departure and install a positive stop so you don't put the fingers into the springs on the disc. If you can't adjust it to zero free-play then something is wrong with your linkage or you need to adjust your spacing on the release bearing Gus 
64 Plymouth Savoy
493 Indy EZ's by Nick at Compu-Flow
5-Speed Richmond faceplate Liberty box
Dana 60
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Re: Mcleod twin disc clutch trouble
[Re: 2JcodeChargers]
#1637656
06/24/14 11:53 PM
06/24/14 11:53 PM
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,169
clarks summit pa
73cuda340
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just a stock bellhousing, but thanks
1973 Cuda 528 all aluminum Hemi, 4 speed, 3.23 Sure-Grip,
(JA5) Silver Frost Metallic
1973 Challenger Rallye 340
1985 W150 Power Ram prospector
1986 Camaro IROC-Z 305 tpi
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Re: Mcleod twin disc clutch trouble
[Re: 73cuda340]
#1637657
06/25/14 02:08 AM
06/25/14 02:08 AM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,277
West Coast, USA
jbc426
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master
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How long are each of the arms on the Z-bar from the outside of the tube to the center of the rod pins?
How long is the throwout bearing release arm from the contact tips to clutch rod adjustment hole?
There are at least 3 different z-bars and clutch forks AND clutch fork pivot shapes for Mopars. It all depends on which ones you have. Identifying them by precise measurements and then running it by Brewers could be enlightening.
Last edited by jbc426; 06/25/14 01:14 PM.
1970 Plymouth 'Cuda #'s 440-6(block in storage)currently 493" 6 pack, Shaker, 5 speed Passon, 4.10's
1968 Plymouth Barracuda Convertible 408 Magnum EFI with 4 speed automatic overdrive, 3800 stall lock-up converter and 4.30's (closest thing to an automatic 5 speed going)
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Re: Mcleod twin disc clutch trouble
[Re: 73cuda340]
#1637663
06/25/14 09:28 PM
06/25/14 09:28 PM
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Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 10,552
Rittman Ohio
fourgearsavoy
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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I used a piece of 3/8" threaded rod with some nuts and washers.Just mark the spot on the floor or firewall and drill a hole and insert threaded rod, adjust as necessary. Just Google images of "clutch pedal stop" there are many options and some very good images of some better more technical designs than mine. I just try to keep it lightweight and simple and used what I had in the scrap box  Gus
64 Plymouth Savoy
493 Indy EZ's by Nick at Compu-Flow
5-Speed Richmond faceplate Liberty box
Dana 60
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Re: Mcleod twin disc clutch trouble
[Re: dogdays]
#1637666
06/26/14 02:16 PM
06/26/14 02:16 PM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,277
West Coast, USA
jbc426
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I don't use the positive stop, but don't worry about how high up the clutch pedal sits. It is just slightly above the brake pedal at rest.
My other main concern, aside that it full disengages, it that the spring on the clutch throwout arm pulls the throw-out bearing off the clutch fingers when its released. Mine spring hooks conveniently to a bolt hole in my scattershield.
I also removed the overcenter spring.
Last edited by jbc426; 06/26/14 02:17 PM.
1970 Plymouth 'Cuda #'s 440-6(block in storage)currently 493" 6 pack, Shaker, 5 speed Passon, 4.10's
1968 Plymouth Barracuda Convertible 408 Magnum EFI with 4 speed automatic overdrive, 3800 stall lock-up converter and 4.30's (closest thing to an automatic 5 speed going)
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Re: Mcleod twin disc clutch trouble
[Re: Sxrxrnr]
#1637667
06/26/14 02:19 PM
06/26/14 02:19 PM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,277
West Coast, USA
jbc426
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Quote:
Quote:
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Is this the same car that had what was initially suggested to have transmission linkage issues in a different thread last week?
Yes, this is the same car. Im chasing two problems at the same time which doesn't help. I believe that the clutch is what is causing my problem though. Im just trying to start with the clutch first and hopefully it takes care of my shifting problem too.
I've been somewhat sorry that I did not install a hydraulic clutch in my car while the engine was out a few months back. Have one in another car and feels much smoother, manageable and easier on my aging leg.
That wouldn't be the same old leg you're still kicking Axe, and taking names with would it, Roger?
1970 Plymouth 'Cuda #'s 440-6(block in storage)currently 493" 6 pack, Shaker, 5 speed Passon, 4.10's
1968 Plymouth Barracuda Convertible 408 Magnum EFI with 4 speed automatic overdrive, 3800 stall lock-up converter and 4.30's (closest thing to an automatic 5 speed going)
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Re: Mcleod twin disc clutch trouble
[Re: jbc426]
#1637668
06/26/14 06:19 PM
06/26/14 06:19 PM
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,169
clarks summit pa
73cuda340
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super stock
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clarks summit pa
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How much travel do you guys have in your clutch pedal? Like I said with mine, in order for it to be adjusted correctly I only have like 2 maybe 3 inches of travel and when it is fully returned it is about 3 inches from the floor pan/firewall.
1973 Cuda 528 all aluminum Hemi, 4 speed, 3.23 Sure-Grip,
(JA5) Silver Frost Metallic
1973 Challenger Rallye 340
1985 W150 Power Ram prospector
1986 Camaro IROC-Z 305 tpi
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Re: Mcleod twin disc clutch trouble
[Re: jbc426]
#1637670
06/29/14 12:02 AM
06/29/14 12:02 AM
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,272
Northern Calyfornua
Sxrxrnr
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pro stock
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Northern Calyfornua
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
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Is this the same car that had what was initially suggested to have transmission linkage issues in a different thread last week?
Yes, this is the same car. Im chasing two problems at the same time which doesn't help. I believe that the clutch is what is causing my problem though. Im just trying to start with the clutch first and hopefully it takes care of my shifting problem too.
I've been somewhat sorry that I did not install a hydraulic clutch in my car while the engine was out a few months back. Have one in another car and feels much smoother, manageable and easier on my aging leg.
That wouldn't be the same old leg you're still kicking Axe, and taking names with would it, Roger?
Naw, now only taking names.
Speaking of axes, did I ever tell you of the original axe with which George Washington cut down the cherry tree that my Grandfather left to me?
Almost like new, only has had the handle replaced 3 times and the head twice.
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Re: Mcleod twin disc clutch trouble
[Re: 73cuda340]
#1637671
06/29/14 12:34 AM
06/29/14 12:34 AM
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,272
Northern Calyfornua
Sxrxrnr
pro stock
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pro stock
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Northern Calyfornua
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Quote:
Anyone?
What does McLeod advise?
Going back to your original thread where you thought that was transmission problem and indication initially was that you had not changed clutch or transmission(I am operating from memory) and could change gears with disconnected linkage, but not with shift linkage connected,,,the scenario changed to where you had also 'upgraded' to a double disk clutch and things got really confusing.
Perhaps you could give a blow by blow, step by step of all you have done. As in:
1. Car initially a 360 with automatic.
2. Pulled engine and transmission
3. Installed brand X clutch linkage
4......and so forth with each step and vendor products used,,,clutch fork, flywheel, bell housing, clutch pressure plate and disc(s), throw out bearing, shift linkage ,,,,,etc
I've believed from the beginning that shift issues was a clutch problem,,,now we must figure out just where things went astray,,,like warped discs, perhaps installed backward,,,easy to do on some cars,,,,clutch pivot ball(I'm thinking as in Chevy here,,,sorry)' pilot bearing, incorrect clutch linkage or improperly mounted,,,etc.
With Hemi engine upgrade, is there any possibility that engine is positioned out of spec as result of incorrect motor mounts causing clutch linkage 'throw' issues?
If pivot ball as in Chevy,,,,this would be my first best guess as cause.
With a complete blow by blow, we will figure it out
Last edited by Sxrxrnr; 06/29/14 12:39 AM.
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Re: Mcleod twin disc clutch trouble
[Re: Sxrxrnr]
#1637672
06/29/14 08:36 PM
06/29/14 08:36 PM
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,169
clarks summit pa
73cuda340
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super stock
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super stock
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clarks summit pa
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The car started as a 340, 23 spline 4 speed and a hayes clutch. I put everything together and went through the transmission and everything worked fine in the car; clutch, transmission, shifter, etc. All new shifter linkage and rods, levers and clutch rod kit.
Next I put my hemi in the car with a 18 spline hemi 4 speed and a Mcleod rxt twin disc kit. Stock replacement bellhousing, new clutch linkage kit and pilot bushing from brewers performance. I used the same shifter linkage, mechanism, and rods that were on the car before and worked perfectly when I had them on there with the old motor and tranmission. When installing the clutch kit, I measured all the clearances with feeler gauges and everything was in spec that the gave me in the directions.
Now I have the problem with the clutch going overcenter when I push the pedal more than halfway down. The only way that I can adjust it so that it doesn't go overcenter and re-engage is when the clutch is adjusted to the point where the pedal is about 2-3 inches from the floor when it is all the way up and the 2-3 inches is all the travel that I have in the clutch.
I called the McLeod tech line three different times and the first two times the guys words were "I don't know what to tell you". The other time I was told that I can send it back and they would adjust the travel on the pressure plate fingers. However, I don't want to have to continuously take the clutch out, send it back, wait for them to adjust it, put it back in and find out that it needs more adjustment and repeat the whole process over and over. That is why I was asking and hoping to find some advice to make it work with what I have now.
1973 Cuda 528 all aluminum Hemi, 4 speed, 3.23 Sure-Grip,
(JA5) Silver Frost Metallic
1973 Challenger Rallye 340
1985 W150 Power Ram prospector
1986 Camaro IROC-Z 305 tpi
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Re: Mcleod twin disc clutch trouble
[Re: 73cuda340]
#1637673
06/29/14 10:01 PM
06/29/14 10:01 PM
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,272
Northern Calyfornua
Sxrxrnr
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pro stock
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Not being Mopar wise in this particular area,,,does the clutch release(goes from external clutch linkage to throw out bearing) pivot on a ball just as with Chevy?
Is this pivot ball adjustable as with some Chevy balls( basically changing the angle of the fulcrum)' or are their different balls offered as certain GM configurations.
Is it possible to install either the throw out bearing or either clutch disc in backward,,,not suggesting that you did, just asking. It is possible on some cars to do this.
It is possible as I had mentioned in your other thread to severely distort a clutch disc if one leaves the transmission 'hanging' before trans main shaft is throughly ensconced into the pilot bearing,,,given all additional info now, doubt this is the problem.
Are you certain that is correct throw out bearing
Is it a Borg and Beck clutch or a diaphragm pressure plate. Is it possible that any fingers are compromised in some way,,,broken or distorted.
How does new clutch linkage compare dimensionally to that which you replaced?
You are certain that engine is properly placed via correct motor mounts and K member is all in place properly.
Did you replace flywheel and is it correct if you did,,,if thicker(or thinner) can throw off geometry of pivot ball, pressure plate and clutch release lever.
Assuming that you did not replace clutch pedal assembly and correct bell housing is used.
Damn, running out of ideas. McLeod's are the experts in the room, it is there clutch assembly(though not to insist it is there product at fault) surprised how they have shucked and jived you off with no solution. If it is happening to you, likely has happened to many who went before you so you would think that they would have seen this before.
Have you had the clutch out for a re-examination of all components since original installation to find if any damage to any?
Where earlier I said my dough was on the clutch as the cause of poor shift action, I now give even odds that is defective pressure plate or the geometry of the pivot ball,,,if this is used with Mopar too.
How's about a hydraulic clutch as a backup?
Last edited by Sxrxrnr; 06/29/14 10:06 PM.
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Re: Mcleod twin disc clutch trouble
[Re: Sxrxrnr]
#1637675
06/29/14 10:53 PM
06/29/14 10:53 PM
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,169
clarks summit pa
73cuda340
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There isnt a ball, just the fork is on a bracket that is inside the bellhousing. However it only goes on one way so there's no adjustment.
The throwout bearing can only go in one way and it is possible to install the discs backwards, but they are labeled with a sticker from the factory showing which side is the pressure plate side and which is the flywheel side. I double checked that they were facing the right way when installing them.
I installed a throwout bearing from McLeod and according to the part number it was the correct one, it seemed to fit fine too.
The clutch is a borg and beck and the transmission never rested on the fingers during the install, so unless they were slightly bent from shipping, they should be fine.
The linkage is factory replacement and the only difference from the previous setup is that the adjusting rod is straight for the big block and angled for the small block.
For the motor mounts I used the Schumacher hemi conversion mounts and supposedly people have said that the motors position is slightly different from stock, but this shouldn't affect the amount of distance the throw is for the fork. If anything it might cause the linkage to bind from being at a different angle; however I don't have a binding problem, just too much travel.
The flywheel I used came with the clutch kit and is made specifically for that clutch setup.
I don't want to install a hydraulic setup if I don't have too.
I have yet to take the trans and clutch back out for inspection. Ive been looking it over hoping to find a stupid mistake and fix the problem, but Ive looked over this a hundred times and I cant come up with anything. I appreciate all that help that has been given but Im pretty much at a loss of what to do at this point. I cant find any other clutch that is rated for the power for my engine, if I did have to go down that road. My engine dynoed right at 700 hp and the only other kit that I can find that is close is only rated to 500 hp.
1973 Cuda 528 all aluminum Hemi, 4 speed, 3.23 Sure-Grip,
(JA5) Silver Frost Metallic
1973 Challenger Rallye 340
1985 W150 Power Ram prospector
1986 Camaro IROC-Z 305 tpi
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Re: Mcleod twin disc clutch trouble
[Re: 73cuda340]
#1637677
06/30/14 03:56 AM
06/30/14 03:56 AM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,277
West Coast, USA
jbc426
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West Coast, USA
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Have you read this page thoroughly from Brewer's Transmissions? http://www.brewersperformance.com/products.asp?cat=105You did say you had a small block in the car didn't you and now you have a big block, but are using the same clutch linkage Z-bar? Also, you are running a 700 hp hemi with a stock bellhousing? That's just plain crazy! Have you ever seen a car that had a clutch explode? it does happen. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9vpcyxvvC8
1970 Plymouth 'Cuda #'s 440-6(block in storage)currently 493" 6 pack, Shaker, 5 speed Passon, 4.10's
1968 Plymouth Barracuda Convertible 408 Magnum EFI with 4 speed automatic overdrive, 3800 stall lock-up converter and 4.30's (closest thing to an automatic 5 speed going)
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Re: Mcleod twin disc clutch trouble
[Re: 73cuda340]
#1637679
06/30/14 10:01 AM
06/30/14 10:01 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,042
MD
RTSE4ME
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MD
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Quote:
Next I put my hemi in the car with a 18 spline hemi 4 speed and a Mcleod rxt twin disc kit.
Quote:
The clutch is a borg and beck and the transmission never rested on the fingers during the install, so unless they were slightly bent from shipping, they should be fine.
I thought the RXT only came with a diaphragm pressure plate.
The RST/RXT pressure plates require less than.400" of bearing travel to fully release according to Mcleod.
I think the additional clutch height and the reduced pressure plate travel needed is causing the issue.
Not sure what the solution would be. Maybe you could use a longer clutch pedal to torque shaft rod to reduce travel? Just thinking out loud.
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Re: Mcleod twin disc clutch trouble
[Re: 74RALLYE]
#1637682
07/01/14 06:17 PM
07/01/14 06:17 PM
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,169
clarks summit pa
73cuda340
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super stock
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I did remove the overcenter spring from the pedal. It didn't make any difference. They do make the clutch kit in a borg and beck assembly. Here is the link to the one that I bought. http://www.brewersperformance.com/proddetail.asp?prod=MC64408B
1973 Cuda 528 all aluminum Hemi, 4 speed, 3.23 Sure-Grip,
(JA5) Silver Frost Metallic
1973 Challenger Rallye 340
1985 W150 Power Ram prospector
1986 Camaro IROC-Z 305 tpi
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Re: Mcleod twin disc clutch trouble
[Re: General 68]
#1637685
07/03/14 08:45 AM
07/03/14 08:45 AM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 3,325
Truckville, the capital of NY
85_Ram_4speed
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Truckville, the capital of NY
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No experience with a twin disk, but I set up my old Dartsport with a stop as was suggested previously and no overcenter spring. If you adjust the clutch right, there will actually be very little movement in clutch pedal travel to get the disk to release. Mopars have WAY to much travel in stock form. It took me having someone in the car pressing the pedal while I got underneath to see what was actually happening. I think I set my air gaps to be about .090 on the several different clutches I tried, anything much tighter and it was hard to shift at high speed---again, this is what I determined worked for me.
I'd be willing to bet if someone pressed the clutch for you while you under neath, measure your air gap and have the assistant note where the pedal started and stop to achieve that, you'd see it doesnt take much travel at all. My pedal actually was not any higher off the floor than my brake pedal--in fact it was lower---stock it was alot higher than the brake pedal. It doesn't matter which side of the pedal you limit, or both, you just need to limit it for a specified distance. And make sure the linkage geometry is right too.
Outcast Dodge guy.
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Re: Mcleod twin disc clutch trouble
[Re: 85_Ram_4speed]
#1637687
07/03/14 11:17 AM
07/03/14 11:17 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,042
MD
RTSE4ME
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Quote:
Mopars have WAY to much travel in stock form.
I'd be willing to bet if someone pressed the clutch for you while you under neath, measure your air gap and have the assistant note where the pedal started and stop to achieve that, you'd see it doesnt take much travel at all. My pedal actually was not any higher off the floor than my brake pedal--in fact it was lower---stock it was alot higher than the brake pedal. It doesn't matter which side of the pedal you limit, or both, you just need to limit it for a specified distance. And make sure the linkage geometry is right too.
I would do this.
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Re: Mcleod twin disc clutch trouble
[Re: RTSE4ME]
#1637688
07/03/14 08:20 PM
07/03/14 08:20 PM
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,169
clarks summit pa
73cuda340
OP
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clarks summit pa
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I had a helper working the pedal while I was underneath. I just got it to the point where it will disengage. Im just going to live with the lower pedal. I got it to be about halfway now.
1973 Cuda 528 all aluminum Hemi, 4 speed, 3.23 Sure-Grip,
(JA5) Silver Frost Metallic
1973 Challenger Rallye 340
1985 W150 Power Ram prospector
1986 Camaro IROC-Z 305 tpi
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