|
Re: Is the 360 an inherently inefficient engine?
[Re: Pale_Roader]
#1622082
05/22/14 09:18 AM
05/22/14 09:18 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,323
NY NY
340duster340
master
|
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,323
NY NY
|
Why not get a coyote mustang and then drive it fit 20 years; then your goals will be met.
1966 Dart GT
...down to only 1 mopar for the first time in 15 years!
|
|
|
Re: Is the 360 an inherently inefficient engine?
[Re: Pale_Roader]
#1622086
05/22/14 06:15 PM
05/22/14 06:15 PM
|
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 3,456
Fly Over States
PHJ426
master
|
master
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 3,456
Fly Over States
|
Quote:
Quote:
http://www.allpar.com/mopar/la4.html
PR put one of these 1/2 an LA engines in that my Challenger. Weight savings of minus one head and some of the block and less intake.
Its missing the other half. Small detail i know...
For that kind ov coin i could pull a Coyote from an actual Boss and get the good stuff, plus a handful ov big cams for it. Maybe buy some nice wheels...
I agree that is kinda sorta the same quandary I was facing....kinda like trying to place a square peg in a round hole.
Trying to make these old Mopars into something they are not, updating the technology for better handling, drivetrain, interior and or amenities and it's easier to beat you head into a brick wall.
Nothing compares to the new stuff period, other than the looks of the old cars but for that amount of cash I can live without it.
When I'm driving a car from the driver's seat I don't get to see what the outside packaging looks like, unless a mirror truck drives along side.
|
|
|
Re: Is the 360 an inherently inefficient engine?
[Re: PHJ426]
#1622087
05/22/14 10:30 PM
05/22/14 10:30 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
Pale_Roader
OP
Swears too much
|
OP
Swears too much
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
|
Quote:
I agree that is kinda sorta the same quandary I was facing....kinda like trying to place a square peg in a round hole.
Trying to make these old Mopars into something they are not, updating the technology for better handling, drivetrain, interior and or amenities and it's easier to beat you head into a brick wall.
Nothing compares to the new stuff period, other than the looks of the old cars but for that amount of cash I can live without it.
When I'm driving a car from the driver's seat I don't get to see what the outside packaging looks like, unless a mirror truck drives along side.
I can see my Challenger just fine... down the hood, in the mirror... plus every time i see it outside. Its just MY car. Its worth it to me. A new Boss would never be MY car... someone else built it, and they did 70% ov it wrong.
Problem with new cars... is (heresy on this site i know) i'm an ascetic. I dont want my engine to have to lug around 500lbs ov complete BS crap i dont want or need. I sure as hell dont want to pay extra for it. Power this and that? AC? a billion safety mandates? three miles ov sound-deadener...??? Please. I drove a Pinto for a while... the only thing wrong with it was it had no power.
So to me anyways... its well worth dumping the new powertrain into an old, SIMPLE and light car. Not to mention i could drive my ratty old 70 up to an optioned-out, Plum-crazy Hellcat SRT-whatever and 60% or more ov the plebs and car guys alike will still be checking ME out. New cars are all about compromise... and to me at least... compromise is an ugly word.
BUT... for now... unless all the Moparts money-spenders start sending me charity... a coyote swap is not in the cards. I can afford the few hun for the 318, but the headers are still beating my budget... Not a lot ov money around here...
|
|
|
Re: Is the 360 an inherently inefficient engine?
[Re: Pale_Roader]
#1622091
05/23/14 05:56 PM
05/23/14 05:56 PM
|
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 3,456
Fly Over States
PHJ426
master
|
master
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 3,456
Fly Over States
|
Quote:
Quote:
I agree that is kinda sorta the same quandary I was facing....kinda like trying to place a square peg in a round hole.
Trying to make these old Mopars into something they are not, updating the technology for better handling, drivetrain, interior and or amenities and it's easier to beat you head into a brick wall.
Nothing compares to the new stuff period, other than the looks of the old cars but for that amount of cash I can live without it.
When I'm driving a car from the driver's seat I don't get to see what the outside packaging looks like, unless a mirror truck drives along side.
I can see my Challenger just fine... down the hood, in the mirror... plus every time i see it outside. Its just MY car. Its worth it to me. A new Boss would never be MY car... someone else built it, and they did 70% ov it wrong.
Problem with new cars... is (heresy on this site i know) i'm an ascetic. I dont want my engine to have to lug around 500lbs ov complete BS crap i dont want or need. I sure as hell dont want to pay extra for it. Power this and that? AC? a billion safety mandates? three miles ov sound-deadener...??? Please. I drove a Pinto for a while... the only thing wrong with it was it had no power.
So to me anyways... its well worth dumping the new powertrain into an old, SIMPLE and light car. Not to mention i could drive my ratty old 70 up to an optioned-out, Plum-crazy Hellcat SRT-whatever and 60% or more ov the plebs and car guys alike will still be checking ME out. New cars are all about compromise... and to me at least... compromise is an ugly word.
BUT... for now... unless all the Moparts money-spenders start sending me charity... a coyote swap is not in the cards. I can afford the few hun for the 318, but the headers are still beating my budget... Not a lot ov money around here...
Okay lets examine this statement about the new Boss Mustang vs what you want to do to your Challenger..........
Apparently in 1970 Dodge did a whole lot of wrong things to it since your looking to change the entire drivetrain on the beater.
Heck they screwed my 71 Challenger up from the factory I would have ordered it with a 700 HP 512 RB stroker but there are two things wrong with that. I couldn't afford a new Dodge in 1971, my father would not have bought a car like that...., lastly I was a little too young for holding a drivers license or a job.
The other part of your statement there cracks me up and your by far not the only one to utter such a comment...."Someonelse built the car.." like a factory, engineers, designers, union factory workers etc etc..............
And where did that Dodge Challenger you have come from in 1970? Did a seagull excrete it from its bowels on a rock for your pleasure only?
Challenger.........it's the only way to fly. Forget the MPG's give me HP and Torque.
|
|
|
Re: Is the 360 an inherently inefficient engine?
[Re: PHJ426]
#1622092
05/24/14 04:10 AM
05/24/14 04:10 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
Pale_Roader
OP
Swears too much
|
OP
Swears too much
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
|
Quote:
Okay lets examine this statement about the new Boss Mustang vs what you want to do to your Challenger..........
Apparently in 1970 Dodge did a whole lot of wrong things to it since your looking to change the entire drivetrain on the beater.
They didn't do it wrong, they simply hadn't the tech to do SOME ov the important stuff right. I'd be MORE than fine with a gnarly stock-stroke 400 if we were still paying 1970, hell... even 1988 prices for gas.
Quote:
Heck they screwed my 71 Challenger up from the factory I would have ordered it with a 700 HP 512 RB stroker but there are two things wrong with that. I couldn't afford a new Dodge in 1971, my father would not have bought a car like that...., lastly I was a little too young for holding a drivers license or a job.
The other part of your statement there cracks me up and your by far not the only one to utter such a comment...."Someonelse built the car.." like a factory, engineers, designers, union factory workers etc etc..............
And where did that Dodge Challenger you have come from in 1970? Did a seagull excrete it from its bowels on a rock for your pleasure only?
Thing is... you guys are talking about a Boss (as am i) like its a done car... which it IS. That seems to be the draw with most people these days... even those ov us that CAN build a car ground-up... they want to get in and drive... maybe change the wheels down the road. THAT Boss would not be built by me.
Plus, as far as i'm concerned, the ONLY thing they got right was the powertrain. Car is way too big and heavy, only looks good from the roof-pillar forward, has 500lbs and $15000K worth ov [Edited by Moparts - Family Friendly Site - Keep it clean] i dont want or need in a car. Plus... new cars are just bloody annoying in soooo many ways. Even my 96 annoys the hell out ov me... doors lock when i drive it, stupid alarm goes off sometimes, daytime driving lights, seat belt and door ajar buzzers all up in my face, not to mention the fact i cant fix it myself. Drove a brand new 2011GT for a week (rental)... fun, but three times as much BS and annoying stuff. I'll pass.
On the other hand... my Challenger WILL be built by me... just like my last Mopar was. Aside from rotisserie-ing the damn thing, every single component is coming out and going back in modified or upgraded. A general redesign ov many systems, and certainly the concept/look/theme will be all mine.
Dont argue semantics when we're both on the same page thinking the same thing.
Quote:
Challenger.........it's the only way to fly. Forget the MPG's give me HP and Torque.
Must be nice to have a good job and a bank account, and not live in an overhyped, overpriced liberal hell. Not everyone gets to have 600HP... Quite frankly... i cant even afford to drive a 318...
|
|
|
Re: Is the 360 an inherently inefficient engine?
[Re: RUNCHARGER]
#1622093
05/24/14 04:16 AM
05/24/14 04:16 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
Pale_Roader
OP
Swears too much
|
OP
Swears too much
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
|
Quote:
Pale: You see it the way I do. I don't need a backup camera and cup holders and I don't want a car that has govt. required extra crap hung on it either. Also there is no prettier car than a 70 Challenger in my eyes, screw the new stuff.
Sheldon
DEFINITELY.
Should my fortunes change there will be an all aluminum, stock-stroke 426 KB/Stage 5 Hemi in there with a 6060. But it will always be a 70 Challenger. This car has been sitting... waiting patiently for 15 years now... Even passed up building a 71 Cuda to keep this car. Having to suffer through financial hell through the years and still not selling it is my penance for selling my A66 years before...
If i EVER get it finished... or started... i'll drive it up there and show it off.
|
|
|
Re: Is the 360 an inherently inefficient engine?
[Re: Pale_Roader]
#1622094
05/24/14 08:54 AM
05/24/14 08:54 AM
|
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 3,456
Fly Over States
PHJ426
master
|
master
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 3,456
Fly Over States
|
Quote:
Quote:
Okay lets examine this statement about the new Boss Mustang vs what you want to do to your Challenger..........
Apparently in 1970 Dodge did a whole lot of wrong things to it since your looking to change the entire drivetrain on the beater.
They didn't do it wrong, they simply hadn't the tech to do SOME ov the important stuff right. I'd be MORE than fine with a gnarly stock-stroke 400 if we were still paying 1970, hell... even 1988 prices for gas.
Quote:
Heck they screwed my 71 Challenger up from the factory I would have ordered it with a 700 HP 512 RB stroker but there are two things wrong with that. I couldn't afford a new Dodge in 1971, my father would not have bought a car like that...., lastly I was a little too young for holding a drivers license or a job.
The other part of your statement there cracks me up and your by far not the only one to utter such a comment...."Someonelse built the car.." like a factory, engineers, designers, union factory workers etc etc..............
And where did that Dodge Challenger you have come from in 1970? Did a seagull excrete it from its bowels on a rock for your pleasure only?
Thing is... you guys are talking about a Boss (as am i) like its a done car... which it IS. That seems to be the draw with most people these days... even those ov us that CAN build a car ground-up... they want to get in and drive... maybe change the wheels down the road. THAT Boss would not be built by me.
Plus, as far as i'm concerned, the ONLY thing they got right was the powertrain. Car is way too big and heavy, only looks good from the roof-pillar forward, has 500lbs and $15000K worth ov [Edited by Moparts - Family Friendly Site - Keep it clean] i dont want or need in a car. Plus... new cars are just bloody annoying in soooo many ways. Even my 96 annoys the hell out ov me... doors lock when i drive it, stupid alarm goes off sometimes, daytime driving lights, seat belt and door ajar buzzers all up in my face, not to mention the fact i cant fix it myself. Drove a brand new 2011GT for a week (rental)... fun, but three times as much BS and annoying stuff. I'll pass.
On the other hand... my Challenger WILL be built by me... just like my last Mopar was. Aside from rotisserie-ing the damn thing, every single component is coming out and going back in modified or upgraded. A general redesign ov many systems, and certainly the concept/look/theme will be all mine.
Dont argue semantics when we're both on the same page thinking the same thing.
Quote:
Challenger.........it's the only way to fly. Forget the MPG's give me HP and Torque.
Must be nice to have a good job and a bank account, and not live in an overhyped, overpriced liberal hell. Not everyone gets to have 600HP... Quite frankly... i cant even afford to drive a 318...
I have owned the Challenger since a long time ago.....probably since around the time you were born so back then it was a stack of cash but compared to the outrageous prices of today?????
Would I buy my Challenger in these economic times at these prices.......not a chance.
I live in one of the most blue crazy liberal states here that has some of the highest taxes south of the Canadian border.
Could I drive a car like this everyday to work? I have a shorter commute than most but the answer is no I would not drive my Challenger every day to work.
My new summer beater is a 1988 Merkur XR4Ti with a 2.3 turbo 5 speed rwd with IRS from Washington State (rust free 130K mile car) for under $2k.
This thing is 2900# fully loaded with power windows heated seats a/c stereo the works. If your into light weight SCCA rules allow this car to weigh just under 2500# for competition.
Yeah I know you have to have a V8 and all that for your daily commute. Installing an LS V8 with T56 has been done in an XR as the countless 302 swaps from old Fox bodies and even a few 4.6 liter swaps.
LS swap here (not mine) : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8fqFHNfEBM
On days I need a V8 I have a Suburban with a V8 another high priced car I paid 12K for back in 2005. Maybe a little closer to your date of birth?
Anyway if you want a lighter Mustang, like I do let's see what the Blue Oval has for us with the 2015 offering? It looks like it will be 200# lighter than last year and be less "chunky" in all those places.
Lastly I'm a working class guy that watches what cash I spend on cars / parts etc. Life has it's priorities like family and all that goes with it.
If you want a cool car that handles, looks cool, light weight, has a V8 that your not going to drive in the winter in the frozen tundra there are plenty of other old cars that can get it done.
Your at a disadvantage with an old Challenger in both weight and cost of parts.
|
|
|
Re: Is the 360 an inherently inefficient engine?
[Re: PHJ426]
#1622095
05/24/14 11:10 AM
05/24/14 11:10 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,936
Holly/MI
Dean_Kuzluzski
master
|
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,936
Holly/MI
|
Ego & pride aside........... Pail Roader is on a budget. Save the typing about what you'd like to do and move forward with a plan.....not a dream. I drove a mildly geared overcam'd smallblock manual trans rwd mid-sized car for many years, DAILY, back when I was poverty level. It was great memories. Still got 18 mpg and it was fun on freway on-ramps. I'm currently at the next level. Could afford more but honestly too cheap to spend the $$. Got a 4 yr old fwd domestic ricer with aftermarket lowering springs, swaybars, air inlet and header/ midpipe/fartpipe exhaust. Totally "on rails" around corners, 30 mpg and the low-midrange accelleration is a blast. All for less than a grand after initial purchase. And totally diggin' the a/c & CD sound system.   Do whatchya can while ya can. 
R.I.P.- Gary "Coop" Davis 02/09/68-05/13/04
|
|
|
Re: Is the 360 an inherently inefficient engine?
[Re: PHJ426]
#1622096
05/25/14 06:00 AM
05/25/14 06:00 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
Pale_Roader
OP
Swears too much
|
OP
Swears too much
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
|
Quote:
Maybe a little closer to your date of birth?
Hah! Well, i certainly missed the golden era, but i was driving in the mid-late 80's. I remember cheap muscle cars and relatively cheap gas.
Quote:
Anyway if you want a lighter Mustang, like I do let's see what the Blue Oval has for us with the 2015 offering? It looks like it will be 200# lighter than last year and be less "chunky" in all those places.
Still a NEW car though. Even a light new car will still have 4-500lbs ov worthless crap i dont want/need/wont pay for. Maybe i'm weird... but i'd be driving that 'light' new Mustang GT thinking... 'this thing COULD have weighed 3000lbs...' hahahaha
Quote:
If you want a cool car that handles, looks cool, light weight, has a V8 that your not going to drive in the winter in the frozen tundra there are plenty of other old cars that can get it done.
Your at a disadvantage with an old Challenger in both weight and cost of parts.
Hah! First off... there is no tundra here. We're more temperate than probably 70% ov the US. No snow here either. Just rain. Dammit... cant quite bring myself to delete the windshield wipers. Might can the heater though...
Second, my car is light. Light enough that pretty much anything else that will comfortably fit a V8 wont be much lighter, if at all. I'm looking at 3000lbs DONE. And thats before i start spending actual money on lightweight parts. How many old V8 cars you know actually driving around at that weight or less? Not many. Even the 'light' ones... the Nova's, Darts, Mavericks... etc, still all seem to end up over the 3K mark. Everyone loves their options and heavy parts.
Cost ov parts? well, you got me there. BUT... i'm not restoring this car. Anything Challenger-specific breaks and its getting fixed. I dont believe in replacing old parts with new. Its a punk car... that gives me a LOT ov freedom.
I'm pretty stoked here... i think the plan is sound. Only downside is that it wont be an all-out 200mph beast... but i've lived with slow cars for 7 years now... i'll make due. It'll be faster than my 96GT, and 194X as cool. Works for me.
|
|
|
Re: Is the 360 an inherently inefficient engine?
[Re: Dean_Kuzluzski]
#1622097
05/25/14 06:27 AM
05/25/14 06:27 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
Pale_Roader
OP
Swears too much
|
OP
Swears too much
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
|
Quote:
Ego & pride aside...........
Pail Roader is on a budget. Save the typing about what you'd like to do and move forward with a plan.....not a dream.
I drove a mildly geared overcam'd smallblock manual trans rwd mid-sized car for many years, DAILY, back when I was poverty level. It was great memories. Still got 18 mpg and it was fun on freway on-ramps.
Hell... i was driving the 8mpg Charger daily... and i mean 50K in 3 years daily, and yes, at 8MPG. I somehow made that work then. Quite frankly, i could still somehow make it work... you just find a way (when you find driving cool cars that much fun). Only problem was... i HATED that car. It was a basketcase and just no fun to drive. If it was my Challenger back then with the same 440 and powertrain, i'd still be driving it. I just had a problem throwing wads ov money at a car i never intended to keep. My Challenger? I'll never sell, so its not money wasted. I ended up getting every dime back out ov that Charger... somehow... so it worked out. Even a mild 383 in my E-body would be everyday viable... but a smaller engine would let me drive it even MORE. Pretty much... i'll spend every dime i have on gas... i'd just rather cruise around the canyons and Rockies in my spare time than the damn main road in my town.
Quote:
I'm currently at the next level. Could afford more but honestly too cheap to spend the $$. Got a 4 yr old fwd domestic ricer with aftermarket lowering springs, swaybars, air inlet and header/ midpipe/fartpipe exhaust. Totally "on rails" around corners, 30 mpg and the low-midrange accelleration is a blast. All for less than a grand after initial purchase. And totally diggin' the a/c & CD sound system.
Do whatchya can while ya can.
When i was shopping for my current car (96GT), i actually looked at several imports. If i could have found a RWD, stick sports car for a reasonable amount, i might have done it. I LOVE the s2000 powertrain... its just too bad the car was made for chicks, and that they're STILL commanding low 5-figures. Looked at the 197HP Civic Si... everything i wanted save the RWD, WAY too spendy. Everything else was too slow, or boosted, which then again kills your MPG.
Hell, i even looked at 97-00 Avengers... still not RWD, but i think they're cool lookin'. They're cheap, easy to fix if need be, and with the 4cyl/5-speed (the ONLY way i'd buy one), they'd be decent on gas. Couldn't find one.
Perfect car right now? 71 Pinto with the s2000 2L and 6-speed. 35mpg and insanely fast, and hell... i just love the look ov the early Pintos. But yeah... then 'm still spending 4K... and i'm no wiring genius...
The stupid thing about all this trying to save money [Edited by Moparts - Family Friendly Site - Keep it clean]... is that no matter what you do, something changes and instantly you're back to square one. Its uncanny. Sell my Charger and buy a Mustang? price ov gas and oil jumps and insurance goes up. Fix/modify it to get another 4-5mpg? Gas jumps again. Quit driving that and get in the Pinto? gas jumps again and my work goes to hell. I can almost guarantee that if i found a 40mpg car the price ov gas would jump another .10¢ and Aircare (emissions here) would double.
You cant win. So you know? I'm done trying. Time to get back in a goddamn muscle car and enjoy life. Like i said before... when you're having a good time... you find a way.
|
|
|
Re: Is the 360 an inherently inefficient engine?
[Re: MoparforLife]
#1622100
05/25/14 09:45 PM
05/25/14 09:45 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
Pale_Roader
OP
Swears too much
|
OP
Swears too much
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
|
Quote:
8 MPH?? You needed a tune up bad. Not bad but REAL bad. Hell I could get 15 with any of my cars of that era with out having to baby them. Had several and had them new.
Believe it or not... that car WAS tuned. It was pretty slick, for what it was. 76 440 (low comp), stock heads, 6-pack-ish cam (no idea, very small, worked very well), nicely ported SD intake, Holley 750 vac secondary, stub stack (no air cleaner), elect ign, Hooker comps, VERY nice 3" exhaust, no accessories, Transgo Stage 2 727, 8 3/4" (3.23). It went pretty damn fast for what it was.
That was the whole point ov the car though... it was a total basketcase. Something in the front suspension was off, badly, though there was no easy fix, it tracked dead-straight, you could take your hands off the wheel, but the caster/camber was so bad you literally could not align it. The engine mounts were 'off' somehow, and NO human on the planet could diagnose the issue, so there was always tension in the drivetrain. Driveshaft had a slight bend, so vibrated. Heh... when i bought the car off that genius... it had like 6 different vibrations going on... by the time i'd sold it i was down to that one. There was drag in the brakes that defied fixing. That was an incredible intake... it basically wanted a much bigger carb when i threw it on (jetted from 72's to 80s and it wanted more), and another 2" ov spacer. Wouldn't even idle without the 1" one i did have on there, at all. I utterly refused to give it the big DP.
Everyone here loved it and it was just badass, and fast, but it was just a bad car... Maybe something off in the chassis? though the frame shops all (3) said it was dead-straight. It was a HARD car to push... like it weighed 4300lbs, yet it was 3600.
Glad its gone. It had been 'touched' by dozens ov mechanics in its life... some didn't have the sense to know how to push a lawnmower. Now... on the other hand... my Challenger is a viiiiiiirgin. Never been touched...
|
|
|
Re: Is the 360 an inherently inefficient engine?
[Re: PHJ426]
#1622101
05/25/14 09:53 PM
05/25/14 09:53 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
Pale_Roader
OP
Swears too much
|
OP
Swears too much
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
|
Quote:
That is what life is all about.........have fun do what you want to do with your Challenger and have fun.
Do the best you can within your means and don't get too caught up and find yourself in a rabbit hole.
Seriously though if your wanting to run a small block why not put a small turbo on it. There is a small block turbo setup on the for sale section in Michigan that a member had on his Valiant if I recall correctly.
Get 318 mpg until you add some pressure to it and then get the added power. It's cheaper than trying to build a stroker engine and might be an option for your project.
No boost... and definitely no turbo. They're ugly, heavy, dont sound good (unless REALLY expensive and well set-up), and well then i might as well just build a huge engine (bad MPG). I like N/A, and i like small and efficient. The DOHC's ruined me for life on that.
Not interested in strokers either. Far as i'm concerned, if you cant win 98% ov races on a 4.6-5.9L engine you're not thinking hard enough. I've seen more slow as [Edited by Moparts - Family Friendly Site - Keep it clean] 400cid SB strokers and 500cid BB strokers than i ever care to think about. I actually like the 318 FOR that tiny little stock stroke... makes for a nice little indestructible engine... something i can beat in a bad mood...
|
|
|
|
|
