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440 - Eddy 750 - Stumble but rich and not lean #1611369
04/24/14 11:11 AM
04/24/14 11:11 AM
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Georgia
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Steve Bryant Offline OP
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Just wanted to post this in case anyone wants to comment on my situation. I think I have it under control but since the story is a little unique, I thought I would share it.

Newly rebuilt 440 with a moderately tame CompCam .212 .218 duration at .050 and .447 .455 lift. This 70 Cuda is a daily driver with a 4-Speed and a ton of fun. Mopar ECU and Electronic Dizzy, brand new Eddy 1411. Stock heads ported and backcut and stock cast exhaust. Timing is happy around 12-15 Initial and 35-36 total but I have been adjusting it slightly up and down to see how she feels. I have not recurved anything.

The issue I have/had is almost trademark for a 440 with Eddy RPM Intake and Eddy 750 1411 carb HOWEVER, I welded some O2 bungs into the exhaust and determined that MY problem is rich not lean. I can adjust the idle to 13-14 A/F with the screws 3/4 turn from close. and at WOT I get between 14-15 A/F mixture. The problem is with initial acceleration and at cruise my mixture will bog down to a rich 9.7-10.5 and will then settle in around 10-12. Of course this changes slightly with outside temperature, etc.

I moved the linkage to the accelerator pump to the lowest setting and that smoothed out the stumble a little and I gained 1 point of lean in the mixture with slight acceleration and cruise (10.5-12.9 range). Today I am preparing to change to a leaner main jet and spring based on the 1411 tuning chart but I wanted to see what you smart people think of my situation as I have some theories:

1) The ignition is not advancing fast enough from idle which is causing a rich situation. I have adjusted the timing with light and by total but right now, I am adjusting initial up and down 1-2 degrees with vacuum and O2 mixture readings and with drivability tests.
2) Not enough power from the charging system to properly power the ECU and give me a strong spark during slight accelerations and cruising.
3) I am doing everything correctly and more people who have the notorious stumble should look closer at their plugs or use an O2 mixture tool just in case they are rich instead of lean.

The stumble is interesting. As I am coming to a stop and releasing the pedal the mixture becomes lean (15+) of course and then as the idle circuit resumes the engine will drop to a 9-10 mixture before coming back to the 13-14 I have tuned with the idle mixture screws. Unless I adjust the idle speed up to about 800 RPM this means intermittent stalls. I really think that leaning the cruise side will take care of the slightly rich cruise and also help minimize the stumble.I am just not exactly sure why my situation is not common.

I spoke to Eddy over the phone and they agreed that my situation is rare with larger engines. They agreed with changing the jets and springs for a leaner cruise but I trust the collective judgement in this group more.

8122811-CruiseMixture.jpg (133 downloads)
Re: 440 - Eddy 750 - Stumble but rich and not lean [Re: Steve Bryant] #1611370
04/24/14 11:35 AM
04/24/14 11:35 AM
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U.S.S.A.
JohnRR Offline
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You couldn't have chosen a worse ignition box and carb combo if you wanted to.





Re: 440 - Eddy 750 - Stumble but rich and not lean [Re: Steve Bryant] #1611371
04/24/14 11:55 AM
04/24/14 11:55 AM
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Lincoln Nebraska
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RapidRobert Offline
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As you know that eddy 750 may be one of the problematic ones, maybe maybe not and that some eddys have a problem on the idle circuit when running a wild cam. I'm assuming the float levels/psi are OK (not over 5.5). I would bump the timing up to 18-20 & if that stands you can shorten the slots later. Yes you'd want the "cruise" step or a smaller jet (which as you know the jet will change power and cruise) to be giving you a leaner mixture & iirc WOT to be ~12.5. I'd get the idle sorted out first. I ain't giving you much here to work with but it's a BTT for ya to get things started. PS you want the curve to start ~200 RPM above your in gear idle speed. You want the carb in the ballpark then fine tune the timing then fine tune the carb


live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
Re: 440 - Eddy 750 - Stumble but rich and not lean [Re: RapidRobert] #1611372
04/24/14 12:08 PM
04/24/14 12:08 PM
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Georgia
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Steve Bryant Offline OP
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Thanks guys. Yes, I knew this would be a tough combination but I wanted to give it a shot since it looks pretty stock and I think/thought I was up to the challenge. We will see!

I have not checked the fuel pressure. I did use a HP, mechanical Carter Fuel Pump so that is a great idea to put a gauge on it.

RapidRobert, thank you for pointing out the WOT mixture. You are absolutely right in that I can't let the WOT get any leaner. At 14, I am already too high. I need to look at my chart again as you pointed out there may not be a good way to lean out the cruise and enrichen the WOT.

Re: 440 - Eddy 750 - Stumble but rich and not lean [Re: Steve Bryant] #1611373
04/24/14 12:18 PM
04/24/14 12:18 PM
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Lincoln Nebraska
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RapidRobert Offline
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I would get the float/psi out of the way then (1) bump the initial & get it to idle then (2) get the interstate high vacuum cruise ratio correct (I forgot what eBerg recommended) then I ain't sure if you go to the secondaries then come back to the power/AP or if you work on the power/accel pump then the secondaries. You can do it! Maybe this will motivate me to get that bung welded in for my innovate meter. EDIT I believe you dial in the secondarys last

Last edited by RapidRobert; 04/24/14 12:33 PM.

live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
Re: 440 - Eddy 750 - Stumble but rich and not lean [Re: RapidRobert] #1611374
04/24/14 12:41 PM
04/24/14 12:41 PM
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CT
GTX MATT Offline
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So its where you want WOT at cruise and its where you want cruise at WOT...


Now I need to pin those needles, got to feel that heat
Hear my motor screamin while I'm tearin up the street
Re: 440 - Eddy 750 - Stumble but rich and not lean [Re: GTX MATT] #1611375
04/24/14 12:50 PM
04/24/14 12:50 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
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Brookeville, Md
Mr.Yuck Offline
Not enough dumb comments...yet
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Mopar box will be fine, however I'm not a fan of that eddy carb. If you mush use an Eddy carb go get a 800 thunder.


[IMG]http://i66.tinypic.com/pui5j.jpg[/IMG]
Coming soon!!!!
Re: 440 - Eddy 750 - Stumble but rich and not lean [Re: RapidRobert] #1611376
04/24/14 01:23 PM
04/24/14 01:23 PM
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Georgia
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Steve Bryant Offline OP
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RapidRobert, almost got my PSI gauge ready but I have to run and get some hose clamps. I am not sure what you mean by EBerg's Interstate High Vacuum Cruise Ratio.

Re: 440 - Eddy 750 - Stumble but rich and not lean [Re: Steve Bryant] #1611377
04/24/14 02:20 PM
04/24/14 02:20 PM
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Lincoln Nebraska
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RapidRobert Offline
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Rick Ehrenberg the Mopar Action editor who has forgotten/misplaced more info than I will ever know posted some ideal A/F ratios to shoot for. the interstate reference was that you would be at a steady RPM/high vacuum/minimum throttle position out on an interstate drive & would be on the "cruise" step of the rod


live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
Re: 440 - Eddy 750 - Stumble but rich and not lean [Re: Mr.Yuck] #1611378
04/24/14 02:32 PM
04/24/14 02:32 PM
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U.S.S.A.
JohnRR Offline
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Quote:

Mopar box will be fine, however I'm not a fan of that eddy carb. If you mush use an Eddy carb go get a 800 thunder.




Mopar box is fine till you hit 4000 rpm , mopar still thinks everyone is using distributors with 34 degrees of mechanical advance .

Re: 440 - Eddy 750 - Stumble but rich and not lean [Re: Steve Bryant] #1611379
04/24/14 02:53 PM
04/24/14 02:53 PM
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Bend,OR USA
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Cab_Burge Offline
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The altitude you drive in will have affect on the best tune, higher up likes more advance and leaner mixtures I ran my last pump gas street motor between 14.5 and 15.3 AFR at light ,part throotle cruise between 2100 to 2700 RPM in high gear. I could make the AFR change by pushing the throttle pedal up and down a small amount, which would not make the car go faster or slower Keep your mind open and look at the gauge and spark plags for the best tune, the AFR can be influence by the location of the sending unit, probe, gasoline, altitude and outside weather It is not uncommon on a lot of "peforamnce" carbs to go fatter on the transition circuits That can be fixed also Drilling and installing screw in bushings with smaller holes for the fuel to travel through The Carter and Eddy carbs are a little harder to do that to than the Holley are


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: 440 - Eddy 750 - Stumble but rich and not lean [Re: Steve Bryant] #1611380
04/24/14 03:06 PM
04/24/14 03:06 PM
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Georgia
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Steve Bryant Offline OP
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RapidRobert I think you nailed it agsin! I connected my gauge and the Carter HP Mechanical Fuel pump is pumping out 9-10 PSI of fuel. Heading out now to see if I can find a regulator.

This should solve the rich problem and make me have the lean problem like everyone else!

Re: 440 - Eddy 750 - Stumble but rich and not lean [Re: Cab_Burge] #1611381
04/24/14 03:11 PM
04/24/14 03:11 PM
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West Palm Beach, Florida
Copper Dart Offline
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INTERESTING
I too noticed black smoke (over rich) at the tail pipes and a bog/stumble from start on med/hard acceleration. Everyone always say lean/poor accelerator pump issues.

stock +/- 383 727 '67 B Eddy #1407
Still with points and condenser.


Common sense, the least common of all the senses.
Mom.

For fear of ridicule, society stifles creativity.
Ricky Valdes
Re: 440 - Eddy 750 - Stumble but rich and not lean [Re: Steve Bryant] #1611382
04/24/14 11:05 PM
04/24/14 11:05 PM
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Steve Bryant Offline OP
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Man, I hated to add a shiny new Holly part (fuel regulator) to my stock looking engine but it's there and it solved the rich condition during a stop plus the A/F moved up another 1/2 a point. I bumped up the timing and drove it for about 30 minutes and it's still pretty lean on the cruise circuit (12-13) and a little rich on the WOT (14-15).

I am going to let things cool down and get some sleep but tomorrow I will open the carb and lower the mains to a 1431 (.107")and change the metering rods to 1454 (.073" x .037"). Depending on how that goes, I may put the larger 1432 jets as secondaries to richen the circuit a little.

Re: 440 - Eddy 750 - Stumble but rich and not lean [Re: Cab_Burge] #1611383
04/25/14 12:27 AM
04/25/14 12:27 AM
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Steve Bryant Offline OP
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Thanks Mr. Cab. I will be taking a closer look at modifying the appropriate circuits tomorrow.

Re: 440 - Eddy 750 - Stumble but rich and not lean [Re: Steve Bryant] #1611384
04/25/14 01:11 AM
04/25/14 01:11 AM
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RapidRobert Offline
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Quote:

it's still pretty lean on the cruise circuit (12-13) and a little rich on the WOT (14-15).


did you mean 12-13 for WOT?


live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
Re: 440 - Eddy 750 - Stumble but rich and not lean [Re: RapidRobert] #1611385
04/25/14 12:08 PM
04/25/14 12:08 PM
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Steve Bryant Offline OP
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Sorry, I said that wrong.

It's still pretty RICH on the cruise circuit (12-13) and a little LEAN on the WOT (14-15).

I went to change the metering valves and jets and I noticed one of the metering rods was stuck in the down position. I corrected it and will go out on a drive today to test A/F again.

So that is two fuel issues I have resolved: 1) Too much PSI 2) Stuck metering rod

I will go for a drive in a couple of hours and see if additional is needed.

Re: 440 - Eddy 750 - Stumble but rich and not lean [Re: Steve Bryant] #1611386
04/26/14 01:10 AM
04/26/14 01:10 AM
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RapidRobert Offline
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You have the psi reduced. The floats set (7/16"). a reasonable amount of initial & it's idling at an acceptable RPM. I'd get the cruise set next. I found some notes not sure where from "12.5-13 for WOT. 14 at idle. 14.5-15.5 at cruise". From Eberg: 12.5-13 at WOT. cruise-14.7-15


live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
Re: 440 - Eddy 750 - Stumble but rich and not lean [Re: Steve Bryant] #1611387
04/26/14 01:29 AM
04/26/14 01:29 AM
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Steve Bryant Offline OP
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Things are WAY better but not yet great. Since I have restricted the PSI to 5.5, freed the stuck metering rod and swapped the secondaries to a smaller size I have some new numbers.

Idle - 12-13
Cruise - 13-14.5
WOT - 13-15 depending on load

The cruise is now better and the WOT is better but I am still too rich on the idle and too lean on the WOT.

The idle is adjusted as best I can get it. I have tried various initial timing combinations from 10 BTDC to 18 (started to ping) and I cannot get the idle A/F up without getting the timing dangerously high and/or sacrificing 3-4 points of vacuum. I have found a sweet spot with the timing around 14 and pulling a nice solid 15-16 vacuum. However, that combination yields a rich 12-13 A/F mixture and a consistent rich stumble as I accelerate from idle.

I think that if I could get the idle mixture up to 14-15 then the transition into the cruise circuit would be smoother. I am unsure how to do that though.

If I removed all the gauges and just drove by feel I would say the car drives well except for the additional clutch-riding I have to do in first to keep it from stumbling and stalling. The transition from the other gears is fine.

Edelbrock support today suggested I get kit 1475 and replace the pump nozzle since lowering the pump to the lowest hole leaned things out by 1/2 point. The idea is to let the idle stay a little rich and adjust the accelerator pump to use a leaner mixture.

I am trying to find a jet/rod combination to lean the main out just a hair and enrich the power and WOT out a bit. I may try rod 1419 first to see if that enriches the Power and WOT a little more. If it works, then I may use a smaller main jet to see if I can lean out the cruise a tad more. I am hoping some of that will spill over into the off-idle but that may be a pipe dream.

What do you guys think?

Re: 440 - Eddy 750 - Stumble but rich and not lean [Re: Steve Bryant] #1611388
04/26/14 05:06 AM
04/26/14 05:06 AM
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Mi,U.S.A.
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mike s Offline
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Check the rod springs might be too heavy or light.Rods should move at the hit of the throttle.

Last edited by mike s; 04/26/14 11:01 AM.

Leave the gun.......take the Cannoli's....Mike
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