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Brake pedal "meh" thinking about braided lines. #1594487
03/17/14 09:16 PM
03/17/14 09:16 PM
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Oakdale CT
gdonovan Offline OP
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Converted my GTX over to 73-76 Dart/Duster disc brakes this weekend and the brake pedal seems like weak sauce. Rebuilt Autozone calipers, Wagner Thermoquiet semi-metalic pads, new rotors and new Wagner brake hoses.

Power bled the calipers with a electric vacuum pump and the old fashion way with an assistant. Clear bleeder hose shows nice clean fluid with no bubbles. Calipers are pointing the correct direction (bleeders UP)

Car has a '74 Disc brake master cylinder with no booster which was on the car when I was running the 11" drums and works fine. If I turn the line lock on and then hit the pedal its iron. If I heave on the pedal with the line lock off the pedal will go 5 or 6 inches down.

Driving the car is a pleasure, I can hit the brakes and the car doesn't dive about like it did with the old drum setup. The car doesn't lock up the brakes but I can stop in a hurry if I bury the pedal as hard as I can.

Admittedly, I only have about 40 miles on the brakes and perhaps the pads still need to be fully burnished in. I'll continue to drive the car and work the pads in but it seems to me even so the pedal could be better. I ran my Dart with the same setup decades ago and don't recall the pedal being this soft with a manual disc setup.

Inline Tube makes braided hoses for the front, good investment? For $60 shipped for the pair chump change that I don't mind spending.




"I think its got a hemi"
Re: Brake pedal "meh" thinking about braided lines. [Re: gdonovan] #1594488
03/17/14 09:53 PM
03/17/14 09:53 PM
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RapidRobert Offline
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Quote:

Inline Tube makes braided hoses for the front, good investment?


No cuz there is still an issue someplace that needs to be dealt with. I'd think the problem is likely air. I'd screw a pair of brass inverted flare plugs from the Edelman parts cabinet at your parts house (they're cheap & you will reuse em) into the M/C ports & if the M/C is bled out (& good & it was good before)) the pedal will be rock hard with virtually no travel. then uncap/hookup the rear drums & bleed them out but first pulling the E brake on will tell you if it is a rear lining clearance problem instead of air. When good there uncap/hookup the fronts & work on them. Some calipers are hard to bleed & pumping the pedal 3 times then having a helper opening the bleeder at just the right moment (on the 4th downstroke/perfect verbal timing needed) helps sometime to agitate the mixture & drive the air out. On some cases you need to take the calipers off & block the piston & hold them at the right angle so they bleed out. The bleeder might need to be at 12 o'clock exactly but the passage where it meets the bore must be at 12 0'clock cuz that's as you know where the air will rise to but the agitation helps with that.


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Re: Brake pedal "meh" thinking about braided lines. [Re: RapidRobert] #1594489
03/17/14 10:05 PM
03/17/14 10:05 PM
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Oakdale CT
gdonovan Offline OP
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I'm 100% positive there is no air in the system, even went as far is to put 26 inches of vacuum on the caliper bleeders and pull a half quart of fluid out on each side.

And then manual bled them with an assistant for good measure.

The rears and master cylinder has already been eliminated as the issue, the line lock is on the front circuit after the master cylinder.




"I think its got a hemi"
Re: Brake pedal "meh" thinking about braided lines. [Re: gdonovan] #1594490
03/17/14 10:07 PM
03/17/14 10:07 PM
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when it acts up it will not pump up at all?


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Re: Brake pedal "meh" thinking about braided lines. [Re: gdonovan] #1594491
03/17/14 10:11 PM
03/17/14 10:11 PM
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ahy Offline
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The braided hoses help firm pedal feel a little. I like and use them. That said, I think you have more sponginess than can be explained by the hoses unless you have a weak or defective hose (which may be). 5-6" of pedal travel is a lot of difference line lock on and off.

Re: Brake pedal "meh" thinking about braided lines. [Re: RapidRobert] #1594492
03/17/14 10:14 PM
03/17/14 10:14 PM
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Kent, Wa
340SHORTY Offline
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did you put a proportioning valve in place of the distribition block ?


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Re: Brake pedal "meh" thinking about braided lines. [Re: RapidRobert] #1594493
03/17/14 10:16 PM
03/17/14 10:16 PM
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Oakdale CT
gdonovan Offline OP
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Quote:

when it acts up it will not pump up at all?




It doesn't "pump up" like a bad master or even like there is air in the system. If you let the pedal set it acts the same. Pumping the brake has no effect on the pedal height or stopping power.

It feels like something is flexing, like a hose is expanding or the pads are really not bedded in. I have had cars with crappy brake jobs sort of feel this way (heavy grooves on the rotors with new pads for example)

The pedal is in the normal position, it won't drop all the way to the floor but you have to really dig in to get the car to stop with authority and it feels soft. Only way I can think to describe it.

Activating the line lock makes the pedal virtually immobile during braking. I tried it on a road test to check the rears and they are working, the pedal is stout so what ever is going on is related to the calipers, pads or hoses on the other side of the line lock.

The master was not allowed to bleed out while I swapped the brakes over, didn't take much time in a shop with air and a lift with everything ready to go months ago.




"I think its got a hemi"
Re: Brake pedal "meh" thinking about braided lines. [Re: gdonovan] #1594494
03/17/14 10:28 PM
03/17/14 10:28 PM
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Oakdale CT
gdonovan Offline OP
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Like I said, its possible the pads are not bedded in. Maybe the compound is a bad match for the car without a brake booster. The rotors are new '78 big 11.75" rotors with the Duster slider calipers, one would have thought it will stop better. It did improve somewhat after a long roadtest with lots of heavy braking with cool down between applications.

P.S. the Master cylinder is the 1-1/32" unit if curious.

Last edited by gdonovan; 03/17/14 10:31 PM.



"I think its got a hemi"
Re: Brake pedal "meh" thinking about braided lines. [Re: gdonovan] #1594495
03/17/14 10:29 PM
03/17/14 10:29 PM
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RapidRobert Offline
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Quote:

but you have to really dig in to get the car to stop with authority and it feels soft.


Alright, I'd take off the front wheels & have a helper work the pedal as you checkout the hoses/pads/calipers for anything wonky. I did have the exact symptom on the stock car once & it was partial blocked flow to the front calipers from using the wrong braided hoses to the calipers that were bent at a bit too much of an angle & was restricting the flow. I had to stand on the pedal to get brakes. EDIT The more I think about it the more I think it's a mechanical hangup with the caliper/pad action

Last edited by RapidRobert; 03/17/14 10:44 PM.

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Re: Brake pedal "meh" thinking about braided lines. [Re: 340SHORTY] #1594496
03/17/14 10:39 PM
03/17/14 10:39 PM
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Oakdale CT
gdonovan Offline OP
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Quote:

did you put a proportioning valve in place of the distribition block ?




Actually I did not- This would be a concern if the rear wheels are locking up and then I would install an adjustable one for the rear brakes as outlined here: http://www.moparaction.com/Tech/archive/disc-main.html

I have done disc swaps before and would rather change about the pads, shoes and wheel cylinders to get the brake bias I'm looking for before installing an adjustable bias valve.

Since I'm not getting any locking action on the front end I'm not concerned with that being an issue at the moment.




"I think its got a hemi"
Re: Brake pedal "meh" thinking about braided lines. [Re: RapidRobert] #1594497
03/17/14 10:43 PM
03/17/14 10:43 PM
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Oakdale CT
gdonovan Offline OP
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Quote:

Alright, I'd take off the front wheels & have a helper work the pedal as you checkout the hoses/pads/calipers for anything wonky.




That is the plan for tomorrow.

I even jacked up the passenger side of the car only to make sure the pass brake caliper was the highest part of the system when bleeding it, made no difference.

I'm just looking to eliminate possible issues, I'll be real curious what those brake hoses look like tomorrow. They were old Wagner stock I had on the shelf for three years, I wonder if they can get funky from sitting?




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Re: Brake pedal "meh" thinking about braided lines. [Re: gdonovan] #1594498
03/17/14 10:45 PM
03/17/14 10:45 PM
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I suggest you look into what the factory combination valve does before you dismiss having one or think just putting an aftermarket adjustable proportioning valve in is the same.


They say there are no such thing as a stupid question.
They say there is always the exception that proves the rule.
Don't be the exception.
Re: Brake pedal "meh" thinking about braided lines. [Re: RapidRobert] #1594499
03/17/14 10:47 PM
03/17/14 10:47 PM
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gdonovan Offline OP
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Quote:

EDIT The more I think about it the more I think it's a mechanical hangup with the caliper/pad action




Possible- Everything looked good and flat, pads were sprayed, tabs tweaked so they were snug on the calipers, etc. Possible one of the calipers is warped? If so you think the car would pull in one direction or another...

Hmm.. If need be, I can steal the calipers off the Duster since they are known good units.




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Re: Brake pedal "meh" thinking about braided lines. [Re: gdonovan] #1594500
03/17/14 10:49 PM
03/17/14 10:49 PM
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Make sure none of the pistons in the calipers are retracting to far after the pedal is released.
Had a brand new one do that. Turned out the seal bad and was pulling the piston back 1/8".

Re: Brake pedal "meh" thinking about braided lines. [Re: Supercuda] #1594501
03/17/14 10:54 PM
03/17/14 10:54 PM
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gdonovan Offline OP
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Quote:

I suggest you look into what the factory combination valve does before you dismiss having one or think just putting an aftermarket adjustable proportioning valve in is the same.




The '70 GTX drum/drum unit is just a distribution block.

A disc brake car has a prop valve that regulates how much pressure the rear sees. For this application the current block is just fine, the problem is I'm not getting enough force on the FRONTS, not too much on the rears.

I need to find out why the fronts are acting as they are, the current block being used will have no impact on the issue.




"I think its got a hemi"
Re: Brake pedal "meh" thinking about braided lines. [Re: gdonovan] #1594502
03/17/14 11:30 PM
03/17/14 11:30 PM
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Quote:

pads were sprayed,


"disc brake quiet" on the back side of the pads?


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Re: Brake pedal "meh" thinking about braided lines. [Re: gdonovan] #1594503
03/17/14 11:46 PM
03/17/14 11:46 PM
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Is it possible the 1 1/32" MC does not provide the volume of fluid needed to make the calipers more aggressive?? You said it used to dive with the drums, which to me means it had substantial front brake. Calipers do require more fluid volume than a wheel cylinder don't they?
My 70 Satellite has the same issue. It has a long pedal on the first pump but it stops fine. Its been bled and bled with no difference. Makes my think maybe the M/C bore is the culprit. The line lock comment makes sense when mine is on and you touch the pedal there is nothing but hard line in the system and no way for the pedal to move whatsoever. This is normal.

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Re: Brake pedal "meh" thinking about braided lines. [Re: Todd] #1594504
03/18/14 05:29 AM
03/18/14 05:29 AM
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Quote:

Make sure none of the pistons in the calipers are retracting to far after the pedal is released.
Had a brand new one do that. Turned out the seal bad and was pulling the piston back 1/8".



I would look into this as well.
A residual valve would fix the problem. Either way, the braided lines won't correct the problem.

Re: Brake pedal "meh" thinking about braided lines. [Re: RapidRobert] #1594505
03/18/14 06:38 AM
03/18/14 06:38 AM
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Oakdale CT
gdonovan Offline OP
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Quote:

Quote:

pads were sprayed,


"disc brake quiet" on the back side of the pads?




Yes




"I think its got a hemi"
Re: Brake pedal "meh" thinking about braided lines. [Re: skicker] #1594506
03/18/14 06:53 AM
03/18/14 06:53 AM
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Oakdale CT
gdonovan Offline OP
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Quote:

Is it possible the 1 1/32" MC does not provide the volume of fluid needed to make the calipers more aggressive?? You said it used to dive with the drums, which to me means it had substantial front brake. Calipers do require more fluid volume than a wheel cylinder don't they?





Car already had a disc brake master cylinder on it for the last two years. It is a standard disc brake unit used in millions of Darts, Dusters, Valiants, 71-74.

A 1" bore would increase the pressure but at the expense of more pedal travel.

The pedal is not solid (unless the line lock is on) as it should be and its taking excessive pedal pressure and travel to get the car to stop quickly.

After sleeping on it I'm convinced something is flexing. Maybe one of the caliper slides are tweaked, seals are junk or hoses are no good.

I can swap parts off the Duster, heck I can swap the calipers, brackets, rotors and pads over if need be in an effort to isolate the problem.




"I think its got a hemi"
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