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I had one on my 340. Lasted 1 year and quit. Never buy a Holley again. Went with the Carter and no problems for years. Seems the ethanol gas didn't bother it either.

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Can you give me a link or part# for the pump you are using now?

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I had one on my 340. Lasted 1 year and quit. Never buy a Holley again. Went with the Carter and no problems for years. Seems the ethanol gas didn't bother it either.

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Can you give me a link or part# for the pump you are using now?

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Guys,

I am starting to get the Charger back on the road for the spring time and I am noticing an issue creeping up that I ran into last year. The issue I had was the car would fire up great and run fine while cold but as soon as it warmed up, it would simply die and wouldn't be able to be re-started until it was pretty much cooled down.

I went through the motions of tons of troubleshooting and swapping parts and finally found the root issue to be the fuel pump which had a partially failed delivery valve. (Thanks again to everyone who helped me here with that!!)

I replaced the pump (Holley 12-440-11) with a new unit and problem solved. The old pump had sat while the car was being restored for quite a few years so I didn't think twice about it going bad.

However, a year and 1200 miles later, I noticed that the Charger is starting to stumble AFTER I accelerate and let off the gas. Today I was driving it and it cut off and I was under no real acceleration at the time. I coasted to a stop and fired it back up and drove home.

This feels very much like the issue I had before. Sure enough when I looked at the fuel filter, I got a few chunks of rubber in it. Only place the rubber can come from is the pump so I am guessing maybe we are looking at a failure coming.

Is this a problem with theses Holley pumps?? I do have the 10% ethanol crud here but I do always treat it with Stabil to help fight this. Even so, for this pump to begin to break down over a year...seems kinda of crappy.

Has anyone else run into issues with the Holley 12-440-11 pump dying like this? Obviously, I am going to go to another pump when I take this turd off. Can anybody recommend me a fuel pump that will work with treated ethanol on a 499 stroker STREET car? I am looking for experiences where somebody here can tell me that their pump has lasted for quite a while with no issues.

Any other ideas for me to avoid this happening again? I am tired of replacing these $135 fuel pumps every year!

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I have had a few Holley pumps fail on me so I quit using them.I use a Carter competition pump on my car now and it's been working perfect for about 5 years now. Mine has 100 gph and 15 psi so I have to run a regulator but they make same pump with 8 psi.
Here's the link http://www.summitracing.com/parts/crt-p4600hp/overview/
Gus

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Tell us more about the install details(plumbing). I doubt that it's the pumps fault, some thing is causing the pumps to fail.

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This is a single mechanical pump setup with no electric pump. That ain't going to change. I guess I am a lucky one but I haven't had any issues with vapor lock or hard starting with my setup thus far...

I have the following plumbing:

new tank (spectra) >>> 3/8" SS sender >>> 4" or so of Neoprene 3/8" hose >>> 3/8" SS hard line >>> 6" -6AN rubber braided hose >>> 1/4NPT pump inlet >>> 1/4 NPT outlet >>> 22" -6AN PTFE hose >>> filter (40 micron -6AN fittings) >>> 4" -6AN PTFE hose >>> carb

So I run more or less a supped up factory setup. Only thing I can think off is the piece of braided rubber line right before the pump might be letting go and giving up the rubber chunks. However, I replaced this with a new piece last year but I can swap out again.

One thing that leads me to think something is up with the pump is that when the old pump went bad, when I cracked the fuel filter to check it right after the car was running, it had no fuel in it. When I installed the new pump, it would be full to the brim and make a huge mess of course.

Now that I checked the filter right after parking the car, the filter is pretty much dry where I need to tip it down quite a bit to get fuel to run out of it. Seems that a good pump is supposed to hold pressure and bleed down very slowly after the motor is turned off. Obviously this isn't happening anymore.

This just 'feels' like the pump again. Car runs GREAT while warming up and then when it's good and warm I give her a good amount of throttle for 2-3 seconds and AFTER I let off the motor starts to stumble and lose power. Afterwards I can hold the gas steady and you can feel it starting to surge and lose power.

I swear how can I be so unlucky with pumps?? Of all things this is supposed to be a simple thing!

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Yours is a big block so you would use this one. Carter M4862 - Carter Strip Super Mechanical Fuel Pump

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That pump looks exactly like the Holley pump I have now right down to the 1/4" NPT fittings. I wonder what the difference is? Could they be made by the same manufacturer?

Also have you run this pump with ethanol gas any?

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I have had a few Holley pumps fail on me so I quit using them.I use a Carter competition pump on my car now and it's been working perfect for about 5 years now. Mine has 100 gph and 15 psi so I have to run a regulator but they make same pump with 8 psi.
Here's the link http://www.summitracing.com/parts/crt-p4600hp/overview/
Gus

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the Carter pumps don't cavatate as easy as a holly pump, so that's why they seem better in some cases,imo.

I got to ask...

Please tell, is that filter is mounted on the discharge side of the pump?

The inlet plumbing should be one size larger than the discharge, on just about every pump, not just fuel pumps.

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Yeah I know your thoughts and I've read a few posts about how wrong my setup is but it's working good right now so I'm not going to change it until something fails.
I run a -10 inlet from the cell and 1/2" aluminum to the deadhead Holley regulator.
The only thing I might change this year is to a stainless element inline filter.
It must be a fairly adequate system as my car runs a 10.91 with a pretty mild 493 and a 3.54 gear out back
I do appreciate your input and in theory I can see your point but it works for me
Gus

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Have you checked your fuel pump pushrod & is it a repop or oem?
I went thru a vapor lock & fuel starvation issue with my hemi &
my 383 and both were due to repop pushrods being too short.
Both times, even after brand new hi vol pumps were installed, the
issue got worse.
When you said your filter bowl was almost empty, that of the exact same thing experienced.

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You know what I'd do , I'd toss a (cheap/readily available) parts house pump on there right now with a fitting or two to mate it up with your lines & take her out for a spin & that'd tell me if it is or is not the pump then go from there

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Yours is a big block so you would use this one. Carter M4862 - Carter Strip Super Mechanical Fuel Pump

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That pump looks exactly like the Holley pump I have now right down to the 1/4" NPT fittings. I wonder what the difference is? Could they be made by the same manufacturer?

Also have you run this pump with ethanol gas any?

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Yours is a big block so you would use this one. Carter M4862 - Carter Strip Super Mechanical Fuel Pump

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That pump looks exactly like the Holley pump I have now right down to the 1/4" NPT fittings. I wonder what the difference is? Could they be made by the same manufacturer?

Also have you run this pump with ethanol gas any?

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They are not made by the same manufacturer. They do look the same but that's it. That's all we have here is 10% ethanol and no problems. Pump has been on for at least 10 years.

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Thanks!

I think I may go this route so I don't have to re-plumb and go to all new fittings. I would have no problem going to the cheapo Airtex pumps, but they all have the 5/16" nipples and I know darn well I will never get a 3/8" hose to seal on that nor do I want to invest way more money and time to drill it out and soldier on new nipples etc.

The only other 'performance' pump I see is the Edelbrock Performer but I'm not crazy about that price tag. I just need a pump that can feed my stroker on the street and be RELIABLE.

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Yours is a big block so you would use this one. Carter M4862 - Carter Strip Super Mechanical Fuel Pump

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That pump looks exactly like the Holley pump I have now right down to the 1/4" NPT fittings. I wonder what the difference is? Could they be made by the same manufacturer?

Also have you run this pump with ethanol gas any?

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I got tired of vapor lock & pushrod issues, so I installed a Mallory gerotor pump & couldn't be happier, so I still have an almost brand new Carter hi vol mechanical pump or an Edelbrock mechanical pump that
I'd sell you cheap. I ran a new carter for about 4 minutes before we realized it was the pushrod, so its almost new. PM me if you're interested.

They are not made by the same manufacturer. They do look the same but that's it. That's all we have here is 10% ethanol and no problems. Pump has been on for at least 10 years.

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Thanks!

I think I may go this route so I don't have to re-plumb and go to all new fittings. I would have no problem going to the cheapo Airtex pumps, but they all have the 5/16" nipples and I know darn well I will never get a 3/8" hose to seal on that nor do I want to invest way more money and time to drill it out and soldier on new nipples etc.

The only other 'performance' pump I see is the Edelbrock Performer but I'm not crazy about that price tag. I just need a pump that can feed my stroker on the street and be RELIABLE.

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Well I pulled the rubber line right before the fuel pump and found a partially disintegrated rubber piece.

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So the pump was good & that's good (no Carter Curse). The 64k Q is where did it (the junk) come from. Either from the ID of the rear or the front (that it was in) neoprene line (maybe but I'm doubtful) or the tank (my bet). A moot point but to ans your Q to my my post, I used one of those colored vac cap nipples from Ace hardware (they call em "screw protectors") & cut the end off & slipped it over the 5/16" hose barb to increase the OD enough to where a 3/8 hose will now be able to be clamped on adequately with a hose clamp. You need the OD of the barb to be greater than the OD of the nipple shank with the screw protector on it but the screw protectors are is thin & you just have enough difference with it on there to make it work successfully if you ever get in that predicament. Yes that would not be practical to drill out a pump as I described for this situation but to pin it down as needed with a cheap pump purchase makes sense (at least to me ) & glad you got it taken care of. Did the rubber shards LOOK like they may have come from a neoprene hose ID or were they random shaped scraps? EDIT I'd take off the 2 short hose pieces & slice em lengthwise & SEE if the scraps come from their ID

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I pulled the Holley pump and found one rubber chunk blocking about 1/3rd of the inlet and found 3 more rubber chunks inside the pump. I disassembled the pump and otherwise it's gorgeous inside. All the valves look good.

I am guessing maybe the three chunks I found inside the pump may have gotten stuck in the delivery valve maybe causing to hang open a tad and cavitate? Could this cause the symptoms I have been experiencing or is this a long shot?

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You found it . I'd clean the debris from the Holley & reinstall it & see if your good. No need to make your new Carter pump a used pump by trying it when you can just as well clean the Holley & be good to go then either sit on the Carter or sell it as a new/unused pump & get a higher % of your money back than you would if it was used (by far).

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is it doing OK with the Holley pump once you discovered/fixed the whistling vac leak? So the Carter Curse is real

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I don't have the carburetor back on yet as I am waiting to get the new vacuum diaphragm. I know that I don't really need the secondary vacuum pot to run yhe car but I'd rather put it all together on the bench. Hopefully my parts will be in by Tuesday or Wednesday so I can button it back up and see where I get stranded next time!

All I know is I took apart and verified that the valves in the Holley were indeed working properly and that I can't pull or push air through the pump like the Carter.

I am amazed at the luck (or lack thereof) I have with these parts. I can't imagine I could install a mechanical fuel pump 'wrong' and I have done my homework on the rest of the fuel system to make sure everything else is clean now.

On another related topic, if I have the lightest sec vac spring in there now, what would you guys recommend to go to as a starting point? This carburetor was sold 'calibrated for the chebby 502 crate motor' which I have found means everything in it is off. What is the 'regular' spring that a regular Holley 4150 would come with? I always hate to be on the extreme end of these things...I was thinking maybe going to the yellow spring to delay the secondaries a bit..

I also ordered the quick change housing so I won't have to mess with the diaphragm for spring changes.

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Yeah bro & I am a Carter afficionado (Carbs) & I ain't even ever had a Carter pump but after multiple multiple complaints (online & in person) I would not run one & if I did it'd have to be one that could be opened up so I could check it out ahead of time & even then I'd be worried still if it passed visual

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Yeah I am quite unimpressed so far with Carter. I had heard crap on their pumps from Chevy guys but then again somebody can tell you bad things about just about anything. At least my Holley pump had an the excuse of being clogged with crap from a bad fitting.

I added a fuel pressure gauge on the dual carburetor fuel line so I can keep an eye on the pressure as a diagnostic tool.

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and I saw that the run of SS fuel hard line along side the headers is sitting right about 350-400 degrees Am I on to something here??

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and I saw that the run of SS fuel hard line along side the headers is sitting right about 350-400 degrees Am I on to something here??

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yes! Google states that gas will boil anywhere from 100 to 400 deg F and will ignite at 495 F. IDK about 100 but you are at 400 on the outside of the line

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So I wonder "how hot is too hot?" The non hard line is running 165 or so on the outside but under it is rubber/PTFE so I have to imagine a pretty good temperature drop between the outside and inside of that line. If the hard SS line is running 350-400 on the outside, I'm pretty sure it has to be pretty much that hot on the inside so I will look into insulating this run of it.

Anybody here have experience with this type of situation where you recorded the line temps and what you did to fix it?

Thanks!!

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I hate to keep asking questions here but these rides (tows) home are getting expensive and annoying. I am really curious if this is really my issue or if I am just grasping at straws here.

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Keep posting bro, we'll get this sooner or later . I wanna see you get this as much as you do (& I ain't paying the tow truck)

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I've read through this...The fuel gauge is a good thing but you did'nt state what the pressure was during the "vaporlock" issue...

Heated lines...OK, but there's alot of vehicles out there with headers and they don't have a vaporlock issue but anything is possible..A factory vapor separator and return line to keep the fuel cycling would be a good thing if you truely believe the vaporlock theory...

Lastely, you've checked the lines leading to the pump for debris...And you've never mentioned how the tank is vented...If it's a later model tank with the 4 lines and divorced vapor catch that itself would be another source for the degrading black rubber...

Which brings me to the last question...Did you verify the vent system is actually working and not creating a vacuum condition under a high load/demand on the fuel pump ???

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The fuel pressure gauge is under the hood so I can't see it while I drive. If necessary, I may plumb a line in and tape a gauge to the windshield. The fact that the pump holds pressure for 2-3 minutes after shutdown tells me the pump is good (at least at the time).

I have a brand new tank connected to the factory vapor separator with 4 rubber lines. I replaced the rubber lines last summer and they still look brand new. The separator is not connected to the vapor line as I don't have it anymore. It just vents to atmosphere. Also, this doesn't just happen under high load, its after 20 minutes or so of driving and pressing the pedal harder actually got through the stuttering enough to get home.

I don't see any symptoms that would lead me to think it's a vacuum lock issue. When I pop the fuel cap, no 'whoooosh' of air or anything. I know the tank is vented as I parked it with a very FULL tank of gas and jacked the rear up to do some work and it dripped gas all over during the course of several days.

The fuel line was replaced several years ago and but it is SS and I did flush it to make sure it was clean (it was). I am 99.999% sure we have a squeaky clean line from the tank to the pump as everything is brand new at this point.

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I am hoping this bodes well for curing possible vapor lock issues.

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Sounds promising

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Lot of Drama and trauma, but I know fuel/ignition problems can be taxing at times, I read this whole thread, or tried to keep in check you woes/repairs/observations



no mention of changing the fuel pump rod, I know you said OEM, but get it off the list, don't buy the Mopar replacements, buy from www.racepumps.com pn#6030 $30

Fuel bowl level, no mention of setting up/checking, do you have adjustable float bowls on your Holley?

Memory check, where's your fuel filter located in the system? is the direction of flow correct?...sometimes it's the simplest things that kick one's ar$e

Mike

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I have heard the fuel pump push rod theory before but I would like to hear somebody with 1st hand knowledge of a worn rod causing this kind of issue. I know a work rod can cause fuel starvation issues but this motor will cut off when not under any real load at all. The fact that it made it 20 miles up and down hills and then starts to do this after sitting makes me think 'heat issue' but I could be wrong. I hate to keep throwing money at this swapping parts but if somebody here can give me some experience where a worn rod did this, please let me know!

The fuel levels of both bowls are where they should be aka slight dribble out of each site hole. I did verify this when I rebuilt the carburetor a few weeks back. It is a 4150 and it does have adjustable fuel bowl levels.

The fuel filter is the Summit billet unit with a 40 micron metal mesh filter. I don't remember if it has a dedicated in/out on it but I don't see how the direction would really matter on it. I just assembled it so that if I open the filter, the mesh sits down in there and doesn't fall out.

I appreciate the response...I will consider the worn rod theory but if anyone here can confirm if this can cause (1st hand not guessing) the issues I am having, I will buy a new one.

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At least measure you existing push rod, should measure 3.244 long (a tad under 3 1/4")

I'd confirm the flow direction of the fuel filter and make sure it's mounted between the pump and the carb

Have you tried driving the car without the gas cap on?

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Filter is between the pump and carburetor. There is no filter between the pump and the tank except for the sender sock.

When I get over being PO'ed at this car, I might pull the pump and check the rod length. I didn't measure it but I did inspect it last time I had it out and both ends were perfectly flat with no signs of worn metal. I'm pretty sure it's the original rod as it has the engraved ring around the center of it where it seems most of the aftermarkets are just smooth.

I am pretty sure this isn't a vacuum lock issue because I have popped the cap after running the car and I don't get any 'whoosh' of air like there is a vacuum building in the tank. My fuel filler is dead center on the back of the tank so I don't want to drive w/o the cap and give my rear bumper/plate a gasoline bath.

I didn't check the fuel level in the bowls when the car cut off. I did see pressure on the gauge but I do need to check that next time. I can always see gas from the squirters, even after the car dies.

When the engine wouldn't start, it does feel like it's firing. I pulled the distributor wire and it was sending all kinds of spark to the ground when I held it close. At this point I am 99.9% sure it's not ignition-related as I have tested both the ECU and ignition system during a no-run condition.

When I cut off, I only tried to re-crank it for about 5 seconds or so before I gave up and pushed it out of the road. I have a feeling I would have gotten it to crank eventually but how long it would run...I don't know. As I said before, 5 minutes later I fired it right up and it idled in-gear with A/C on just fine (when I took the video). It just felt 'off' when I tried to drive it like it was going to try and stall...

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If there is fuel at the squirters, there is some fuel in the bowls. Next time it happens, open the sight plug and judge how much fuel is actually in there. If you can see the fuel, there is more than enough for the motor to fire, and fuel delivery to the carb would not be the issue.

Is it possible that fuel is leaking from the carb and flooding the motor while its parked? When it is hard to start have you tried putting the pedal to the floor and crank it (to clear a flooded condition)?

I know you said the carb was recently rebuilt but is possible that there is piece of schmutz in an internal passage? Perhaps something is blocking the fuel flow somewhere in the idle circuit.

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A moparts member named Challenger1 I think, has had real good luck running mechanical pumps. He runs the stock mopar pumps that have a return line at the pump to return fuel to the fuel tank. That way the fuel doesn't get a chance to heat up in the line because it's always moving.

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