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Re: Holley Fuel Pump Issues
[Re: RapidRobert]
#1593382
03/16/14 02:29 PM
03/16/14 02:29 PM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,526
North Carolina
cjskotni
OP
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Quote:
You know what I'd do  , I'd toss a (cheap/readily available) parts house pump on there right now with a fitting or two to mate it up with your lines & take her out for a spin & that'd tell me if it is or is not the pump then go from there
How do you adapt my 3/8" line to the 5/16" nipple on it? Clamping a 3/8" rubber line would be prone to leaking? no?
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Re: Holley Fuel Pump Issues
[Re: cjskotni]
#1593383
03/16/14 04:34 PM
03/16/14 04:34 PM
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 66
New York
DartS
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member
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Posts: 66
New York
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Quote:
Quote:
Yours is a big block so you would use this one. Carter M4862 - Carter Strip Super Mechanical Fuel Pump
 That pump looks exactly like the Holley pump I have now right down to the 1/4" NPT fittings. I wonder what the difference is? Could they be made by the same manufacturer?
Also have you run this pump with ethanol gas any?
They are not made by the same manufacturer. They do look the same but that's it. That's all we have here is 10% ethanol and no problems. Pump has been on for at least 10 years.
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Re: Holley Fuel Pump Issues
[Re: DartS]
#1593384
03/16/14 05:48 PM
03/16/14 05:48 PM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,526
North Carolina
cjskotni
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Yours is a big block so you would use this one. Carter M4862 - Carter Strip Super Mechanical Fuel Pump
That pump looks exactly like the Holley pump I have now right down to the 1/4" NPT fittings. I wonder what the difference is? Could they be made by the same manufacturer?
Also have you run this pump with ethanol gas any?
They are not made by the same manufacturer. They do look the same but that's it. That's all we have here is 10% ethanol and no problems. Pump has been on for at least 10 years.
Thanks! 
I think I may go this route so I don't have to re-plumb and go to all new fittings. I would have no problem going to the cheapo Airtex pumps, but they all have the 5/16" nipples and I know darn well I will never get a 3/8" hose to seal on that nor do I want to invest way more money and time to drill it out and soldier on new nipples etc.
The only other 'performance' pump I see is the Edelbrock Performer but I'm not crazy about that price tag. I just need a pump that can feed my stroker on the street and be RELIABLE. 
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Re: Holley Fuel Pump Issues
[Re: cjskotni]
#1593385
03/16/14 11:35 PM
03/16/14 11:35 PM
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Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,954
Blairsden, CA
Triggerfish
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,954
Blairsden, CA
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Yours is a big block so you would use this one. Carter M4862 - Carter Strip Super Mechanical Fuel Pump
That pump looks exactly like the Holley pump I have now right down to the 1/4" NPT fittings. I wonder what the difference is? Could they be made by the same manufacturer?
Also have you run this pump with ethanol gas any?
I got tired of vapor lock & pushrod issues, so I installed a Mallory gerotor pump & couldn't be happier, so I still have an almost brand new Carter hi vol mechanical pump or an Edelbrock mechanical pump that
I'd sell you cheap. I ran a new carter for about 4 minutes before we realized it was the pushrod, so its almost new. PM me if you're interested.
They are not made by the same manufacturer. They do look the same but that's it. That's all we have here is 10% ethanol and no problems. Pump has been on for at least 10 years.
Thanks!
I think I may go this route so I don't have to re-plumb and go to all new fittings. I would have no problem going to the cheapo Airtex pumps, but they all have the 5/16" nipples and I know darn well I will never get a 3/8" hose to seal on that nor do I want to invest way more money and time to drill it out and soldier on new nipples etc.
The only other 'performance' pump I see is the Edelbrock Performer but I'm not crazy about that price tag. I just need a pump that can feed my stroker on the street and be RELIABLE.
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Re: Holley Fuel Pump Issues
[Re: RapidRobert]
#1593389
03/18/14 08:44 PM
03/18/14 08:44 PM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,526
North Carolina
cjskotni
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Update on the situation: I disconnected the neoprene rubber hose that went from the sender to the hard line and inspected. Looks and feels brand new. This hose is the top-of-the-line Goodyear hose. Here is the hose. I blew out the hard line with 120 psi compressed air from the sender end forward and got all the gas out. Gas was clean and no rubber chunks. The gas did have some small silver flecks in it but I am guessing that may be from the new tank. No rust/gunk/debris otherwise. I pulled the Holley pump and found one rubber chunk blocking about 1/3rd of the inlet and found 3 more rubber chunks inside the pump. I disassembled the pump and otherwise it's gorgeous inside. All the valves look good. I am guessing maybe the three chunks I found inside the pump may have gotten stuck in the delivery valve maybe causing to hang open a tad and cavitate? Could this cause the symptoms I have been experiencing or is this a long shot? As stated before I know the source of the rubber chunks was the compression fitting that adapted the 3/8" hard line to the -6AN hose right before the fuel pump. It is an Earl's fitting that has a rubber seal in it that went bad and basically is missing a side. Hell I probably could put that Holley back on and go as I know it's squeaky clean inside. I guess I will just try the Carter pump for now and keep the Holley in case this one dies. Is this just the aftermarket design or what....but these pumps seem unusually susceptible to any debris getting in them. I'm guessing maybe it is just the combination of the perfectly right size chunks and squishiness of the rubber to make this gum up the works? 
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Re: Holley Fuel Pump Issues
[Re: RapidRobert]
#1593391
05/03/14 10:39 PM
05/03/14 10:39 PM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,526
North Carolina
cjskotni
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Well here is an update. I swapped in the Carter pump and the car ran like a champ for the past month or so. However, I was driving home from work last week and she up and died on me once again. I got the car to restart once and got to a side street where it died for good. It was the same old symptom. I am just cruising along at 45 mph and you can start to feel the motor lose power and start to surge before it cuts out. Fuel filter was squeaky clean and I did verify spark while the car was dead. Next day, it fired up and I ran it long enough to move it to a good spot in the garage. I put the Holley pump back on and I went through the carburetor to make sure all was fine. I did find a super cracked vacuum plug that was whistling and fixed that. I am guessing I had at least somewhat of a vacuum leak but I know that's not really my issue. Small tear in the vacuum secondary diaphragm as well so I have one of those on order. I also noticed I have the lightest (white) spring which seems kind of weird so I ordered a set of the springs to tune this later. Otherwise the carb was fine inside. I did some diagnosis on the Carter pump and noticed that you can blow and suck air through the pump which shouldn't be possible if I understand how these work. I disassembled it and the pump was clean inside but one the valves in it doesn't seem to quite seal where you can get air to go through it both directions. I'm not sure what my issue is but I swear I have the worst luck with this car sometimes. Thanks for the help so far guys! I will keep everyone posted!
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Re: Holley Fuel Pump Issues
[Re: cjskotni]
#1593392
05/04/14 02:23 AM
05/04/14 02:23 AM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
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Circle Track
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
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is it doing OK with the Holley pump once you discovered/fixed the whistling vac leak? So the Carter Curse is real
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: Holley Fuel Pump Issues
[Re: RapidRobert]
#1593393
05/04/14 10:45 AM
05/04/14 10:45 AM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,526
North Carolina
cjskotni
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Quote:
is it doing OK with the Holley pump once you discovered/fixed the whistling vac leak? So the Carter Curse is real
I don't have the carburetor back on yet as I am waiting to get the new vacuum diaphragm. I know that I don't really need the secondary vacuum pot to run yhe car but I'd rather put it all together on the bench. Hopefully my parts will be in by Tuesday or Wednesday so I can button it back up and see where I get stranded next time! 
All I know is I took apart and verified that the valves in the Holley were indeed working properly and that I can't pull or push air through the pump like the Carter.
I am amazed at the luck (or lack thereof) I have with these parts. I can't imagine I could install a mechanical fuel pump 'wrong' and I have done my homework on the rest of the fuel system to make sure everything else is clean now.
On another related topic, if I have the lightest sec vac spring in there now, what would you guys recommend to go to as a starting point? This carburetor was sold 'calibrated for the chebby 502 crate motor' which I have found means everything in it is off. What is the 'regular' spring that a regular Holley 4150 would come with? I always hate to be on the extreme end of these things...I was thinking maybe going to the yellow spring to delay the secondaries a bit..
I also ordered the quick change housing so I won't have to mess with the diaphragm for spring changes.
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Re: Holley Fuel Pump Issues
[Re: cjskotni]
#1593394
05/04/14 12:19 PM
05/04/14 12:19 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,063
Niles , Ohio
therocks
oh wait.but hey.lets see.oh yeah.
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oh wait.but hey.lets see.oh yeah.
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,063
Niles , Ohio
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RR we had the Carter Curse on not 1 or 2 but 4 new pumps.One was a SB and 3 BBs.The sb wouldnt even pump.I even pulled the timing cover as it was a new motor and I thought maybe the eccentric was loose.One BB my kid ran for like 20 miles and the arm went askew and the spring was in the oil pan.2 others quit withing a month.I used my old Holley I bought in 72 on the kids BB and it worked but had a slight leak.Now all of them have Holleys and I have pretty much a new Carter sitting on the shelf.Rocky
Chrysler Firepower
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Re: Holley Fuel Pump Issues
[Re: therocks]
#1593395
05/04/14 12:31 PM
05/04/14 12:31 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
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Circle Track
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Lincoln Nebraska
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Yeah bro & I am a Carter afficionado (Carbs) & I ain't even ever had a Carter pump but after multiple multiple complaints (online & in person) I would not run one & if I did it'd have to be one that could be opened up so I could check it out ahead of time & even then I'd be worried still if it passed visual
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: Holley Fuel Pump Issues
[Re: RapidRobert]
#1593396
05/04/14 02:05 PM
05/04/14 02:05 PM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,526
North Carolina
cjskotni
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Quote:
Yeah bro & I am a Carter afficionado (Carbs) & I ain't even ever had a Carter pump but after multiple multiple complaints (online & in person) I would not run one & if I did it'd have to be one that could be opened up so I could check it out ahead of time & even then I'd be worried still if it passed visual
Yeah I am quite unimpressed so far with Carter. I had heard crap on their pumps from Chevy guys but then again somebody can tell you bad things about just about anything. At least my Holley pump had an the excuse of being clogged with crap from a bad fitting.
I added a fuel pressure gauge on the dual carburetor fuel line so I can keep an eye on the pressure as a diagnostic tool.
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Re: Holley Fuel Pump Issues
[Re: cjskotni]
#1593397
05/04/14 10:19 PM
05/04/14 10:19 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,063
Niles , Ohio
therocks
oh wait.but hey.lets see.oh yeah.
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oh wait.but hey.lets see.oh yeah.
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,063
Niles , Ohio
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The old factory stock type Carters I never had ab issue.The new HiPo ones not so much.My old 71 vintage Holley still worked even after sitting for almost 15 years.I wish I could still buy a kit for it.Rocky
Chrysler Firepower
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Re: Holley Fuel Pump Issues
[Re: therocks]
#1593398
05/07/14 08:19 PM
05/07/14 08:19 PM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,526
North Carolina
cjskotni
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Ok I got the carb back together and buttoned the car back up. Engine fired right up but I did do something stupid. I left a balled up paper towel in the intake and forgot to take it out when I dropped the carburetor on. I had a nice little spray of paper towel bits behind my car. I am praying I didn't mess anything up with this but I can't think of what the paper towel could get into that it would hurt...not to mention, it would just burn up if anything was left in the valves? Either way the engine seems to run fine except now I notice that when I put the car in gear, it drops about 100-150 RPM and the A/C drops it another 50 RPM. Idle out of gear if around 850, in-gear drops to 700 or so and then down 650 or so with the A/C. At that low RPM, it feels like the motor is going to cut off almost. Needless to say I don't want an idle this low as it can't power my goodies spinning he alternator so slowly. What could be causing this? Do I need to richen up the idle mixture some? I set the screws the same position as before (1-1/4 turns out from bottom). Could a vacuum leak cause this? I made sure all the vacuum ports were plugged or connected...only thing I could think of would be that secondary diaphragm but I replaced the cork gasket on the vacuum housing and was pretty careful getting the diaphragm just right. Any ideas why the idle drops so much in gear now?  **EDIT** I upped the curb idle a quarter to maybe a half turn which seems to help. It didn't really up the out-of-gear idle much but now the in-gear + A/C on idle is ~720-750 RPM which I can live with. I am pretty sure the primaries are probably going to the transfer slot now. I can't see an signs of a vacuum leak yet. On the bright side, the new fuel pressure gauge shows 5-7 psi at idle and doesn't really drop at all if you rev it up (out of gear). When the motor is shut off (hot), it takes about 1-2 minutes for the fuel pressure to bleed back down to zero which seems ok.
Last edited by cjskotni; 05/07/14 09:12 PM.
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Re: Holley Fuel Pump Issues ****UPDATE****
[Re: cjskotni]
#1593399
05/16/14 03:50 PM
05/16/14 03:50 PM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,526
North Carolina
cjskotni
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Alright, I finally got the fortitude (and time) to take the Charger back out for a drive and test out the fuel situation. Today is a nice sunny day around 75 degrees or so. I took the car out in the country today for a 25 mile or so drive. I romped on it a couple of times as well as cruised nice and easy and it ran great....except for the last two miles or so. I was going up a slight hill at around 45 MPH and I noticed it starting to sputter and surge. I gave it some gas and it pulled through it. The whole incident lasted maybe 10 seconds or so. I was about to pull over but it calmed down and I drove the last few miles home. As soon as I got home, I took some temperature readings and I saw that the run of SS fuel hard line along side the headers is sitting right about 350-400 degrees according to the IR thermometer!! It has about 18-24" of this from the collector until a few inches before the pump where it converts to -6AN SS braided line. From this point forward, the temp on the line was no more the 165* or so. The primary fuel bowl on the carburetor were sitting at 160*. I am thinking maybe I'm verging on a vapor lock situation here possibly? I wonder why it is taking so long to occur but possibly the tail pipes are preheating the tank that might be pushing the gas temp over to flash? I don't think it's the pump this time (Holley pump cleaned out and put back on) as the fuel pressure gauge shows it taking 2-3 minutes to bleed down pressure after shutdown. Am I on to something here??
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Re: Holley Fuel Pump Issues ****UPDATE****
[Re: RapidRobert]
#1593401
05/16/14 06:04 PM
05/16/14 06:04 PM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,526
North Carolina
cjskotni
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Quote:
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and I saw that the run of SS fuel hard line along side the headers is sitting right about 350-400 degrees Am I on to something here??
yes! Google states that gas will boil anywhere from 100 to 400 deg F and will ignite at 495 F. IDK about 100 but you are at 400 on the outside of the line
So I wonder "how hot is too hot?" The non hard line is running 165 or so on the outside but under it is rubber/PTFE so I have to imagine a pretty good temperature drop between the outside and inside of that line. If the hard SS line is running 350-400 on the outside, I'm pretty sure it has to be pretty much that hot on the inside so I will look into insulating this run of it.
Anybody here have experience with this type of situation where you recorded the line temps and what you did to fix it?
Thanks!!
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the gas is killing all the old cars
) & glad you got it taken care of. Did the rubber shards LOOK like they may have come from a neoprene hose ID or were they random shaped scraps? EDIT I'd take off the 2 short hose pieces & slice em lengthwise & SEE if the scraps come from their ID