HIgh output alternators
#1588901
03/06/14 08:18 PM
03/06/14 08:18 PM
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floridian
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Been dealing with poor charging at idle with my stock and a new rebuilt alternator on my 67 coronet. Round back with single field? Seems as if it didn't act up much the first couple of years ( 2500 miles) I drove it after the restoration, now nothing seems to help..
I have had 3 different voltage regulators and now a rebuilt alternator. The new alternator seems to charge and act great except at idle especially with the lights on.. the lights dim at idle, blink with the turn signals etc. If I rev it up maybe 500 rpm it makes a huge difference. The volt meter will show decharge almost to the bottom of the scale with the lights on at idle. My amp gauge has been converted ( redline ) to a volt meter, so no wires there anymore, and all wiring was new 4 years ago.. I am going to try cleaning and installing some extra grounds ( to the VR, and the lights) where I think it might help. Has anyone tried the high output alternators from powermaster or Quality power Auto?? There claims are more amps at idle than my stock one puts out at speed??
what has anyone else done to solve there charging problems??
Last edited by floridian; 03/06/14 08:27 PM.
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Re: HIgh output alternators
[Re: Andrewh]
#1588904
03/06/14 08:46 PM
03/06/14 08:46 PM
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cjskotni
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The easiest option would be to go with the later style squareback alternator from a late 80's Mopar. They are rated at 78 amps at speed and put out roughly 40-45 amps at idle. Even an earlier stlye square back from a 70's model will be rated at 60 amps at speed. You can get the later style alt by asking for the alternator from a 87 Diplomat. I have one I got from O'Reilley's here...cost me $55. This should bolt to your brackets but you will want to go with a solid state VR and ditch the mechanical one you probably have now. You can buy the triangular VR plug from the parts stores or RockAuto and make/adapt your harness to work with it by making it dual field. You could use the old style VR and just ground one field wire but I would go to the newer style reg. It offers much 'cleaner' voltage with less noise. This should be more than enough juice for a car with OEM-type loads. If you are adding electric fans/pumps/big stereo amps etc, you will need to go to a 100 amp or higher most likely. Adding relays won't help a low charging situation. In fact they will exacerbate the issue. Relays are used to eliminate voltage drops on circuits like headlights so they can shine brighter (and thus draw more current) as the relay gives the current a more direct path. Only way to get more amps is to upgrade the alternator. Here is a picture of the dual field charging circuit. Just pay attention to the VR to alt wiring. Blue wire is battery voltage (keyed from ign switch) and the green wire is the field wire that allows the VR to 'control' the alternator's output. Picture credit to Nacho!
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Re: HIgh output alternators
[Re: ahy]
#1588908
03/07/14 01:00 AM
03/07/14 01:00 AM
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TJP
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STEP 1, At idle, Check the alternator output at the battery terminal. IE: voltage Step 2. At idle, Check the voltage at the battery terminals. Step 3 increase RPM to 2,000 or so and repeat above tests. Report back
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Re: HIgh output alternators
[Re: NachoRT74]
#1588910
03/07/14 11:21 AM
03/07/14 11:21 AM
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floridian
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Thanks to all for the help/ ideas..
All new wiring harness's ( year one M&H) silicone greased terminals at the bulkhead. Will remove and check.
As said above, stock amp gauge, but Redline changed to a volt meter, so NO wires going to it at all..
Newer electric VR being used.
I am going to run a wire from the alternator to the starter/battery stud.
So if I go to a squareback alternator, what will I have to do to my wiring harness to hook this up using the stock VR? What if I upgrade to the newer version of the VR?
My car is all stock, no big stereos, no power windows, no AC, so very little draw except for lights..
Another question here.... If my gauge is a volt meter now, why does the voltage go down so low at idle with the lights on?? I understand amp output is zip, but doesn't the voltage stay the same?
Again thanks to all helping me work through this...
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Re: HIgh output alternators
[Re: floridian]
#1588911
03/07/14 11:26 AM
03/07/14 11:26 AM
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NachoRT74
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lets say amperage are how many men pushing a car.
voltage is the force they have to put out to push the car
more men, less force each one
less men, more force they have to put each.
thats what voltage and amperage are.
so if there is not enough men to push the car ( amperes ), will need more force each to push it... thats when voltage falls down.
they are proportional.
With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
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Re: HIgh output alternators
[Re: Andrewh]
#1588912
03/07/14 11:26 AM
03/07/14 11:26 AM
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floridian
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Quote:
you can up your amps by just going to a square back alt. ground one field wire and you can continue to use your stock voltage reg with no other wiring changes. These are 50 dollar alt from any parts house.
Ok so one of my questions has been answered.. Thanks
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Re: HIgh output alternators
[Re: floridian]
#1588914
03/07/14 11:37 AM
03/07/14 11:37 AM
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BigBlockMopar
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Quote:
what has anyone else done to solve there charging problems??
I stepped up to a modern internally regulated alternator. I have a '90's Ford 3G alternator in my '73 Dart which maintains a charging voltage of 13+ with the engine idling at 550rpm in Drive, headlights and heaterfan on full blast.
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Re: HIgh output alternators
[Re: floridian]
#1588915
03/07/14 11:58 AM
03/07/14 11:58 AM
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With a stock electrical system and new wiring you should not have a problem. However, mass rebuilt alternators are usually poorly done. A good local shop ought to be able to fix that for you. Everything else is just a bandaid.
They say there are no such thing as a stupid question. They say there is always the exception that proves the rule. Don't be the exception.
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Re: HIgh output alternators
[Re: Supercuda]
#1588916
03/07/14 01:50 PM
03/07/14 01:50 PM
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floridian
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Quote:
With a stock electrical system and new wiring you should not have a problem. However, mass rebuilt alternators are usually poorly done. A good local shop ought to be able to fix that for you. Everything else is just a bandaid.
Thats one of my problems, new to Florida and don't know anybody. UPDATE, found someone in Winterhaven, Strickland starter, said he could do what we need to with it.. Thats my next step. will let everybody know...
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Re: HIgh output alternators
[Re: BigBlockMopar]
#1588917
03/07/14 03:12 PM
03/07/14 03:12 PM
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floridian
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Quote:
Quote:
what has anyone else done to solve there charging problems??
I stepped up to a modern internally regulated alternator. I have a '90's Ford 3G alternator in my '73 Dart which maintains a charging voltage of 13+ with the engine idling at 550rpm in Drive, headlights and heaterfan on full blast.
what did you have to do for the install?
Doesn't Andy make a bracket for a newer alternator?
Does anyone on here have any personal experience updating to a squareback or to a Hybrid ( stock looking high output) alternator?
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Re: HIgh output alternators
[Re: floridian]
#1588919
03/07/14 03:46 PM
03/07/14 03:46 PM
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cjskotni
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
what has anyone else done to solve there charging problems??
I stepped up to a modern internally regulated alternator. I have a '90's Ford 3G alternator in my '73 Dart which maintains a charging voltage of 13+ with the engine idling at 550rpm in Drive, headlights and heaterfan on full blast.
what did you have to do for the install?
Doesn't Andy make a bracket for a newer alternator?
Does anyone on here have any personal experience updating to a squareback or to a Hybrid ( stock looking high output) alternator?
Unless you are running heavy non-OEM electrical loads, don't waste your time trying to fab a way to bolt on a completely foreign alternator to your engine. Way more trouble than it's worth for your situation IMHO.
I have this alternator on my Charger. It looks perfectly OEM and dropped right on. No fabbin or modifying anything....
The only time I can get it to discharge with the motor running is at idle, in gear, with AC/blower on, lights, and my electric fans (20 amps) on concurrently. With your loads, you would never run out of juice.
Power Master makes their version as well. Pick your brand. I still say go get a parts store alternator with a lifetime warranty and call it a day. Even the regular squareback (60 amp) should be enough or especially the later model (78 amp).
Either way, this should drop right on, and not require bracket mod's and wire splices to make it work.
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Re: HIgh output alternators
[Re: cjskotni]
#1588920
03/07/14 04:20 PM
03/07/14 04:20 PM
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NachoRT74
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I was allmost to pull the trigger for the TuffStuff alt, but emailed them asking for iddle specs and told me their alt put at iddle around 45 amps. That retracted me on pull the trigger.
I don't need 100 amps alt max output, I need/wish 55 amps at iddle.
The power consumption on a car doesn't change a lot running on highway 100 MPH or sat on a traffic light ( just ignition variations ), so why I would care to get 100 amps at high revs ?
of course is logic, at high revs the stator inside the alt gets more fields variation ( hence more amps ) coming from rotor spining faster, but a stock replacement 78 amps also gives around 45 amps at iddle and priced less than a half tuffstuff are priced
With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
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Re: HIgh output alternators
[Re: NachoRT74]
#1588923
03/07/14 05:05 PM
03/07/14 05:05 PM
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cjskotni
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Quote:
I was allmost to pull the trigger for the TuffStuff alt, but emailed them asking for iddle specs and told me their alt put at iddle around 45 amps. That retracted me on pull the trigger.
I don't need 100 amps alt max output, I need/wish 55 amps at iddle.
I'm not sure who you talked to, but their own spec shows 60 amps at idle (800 engine RPM). I think that is a bit generous as it starts to discharge slightly when my loads approach 50-55 amps when the car is idling (750 RPM). These alternators drop off fast when you lower RPM's so if you aren't idling at 800 RPM in gear, then you are already going to be lower than the advertised idle output of any alternator.
Before this I tried the 78 amp squareback, and this one is perceptibly better. I'm not going to say way better but it doesn't discharge as deeply when those electric fans go on at idle. At idle, this one seems to put out around 8-10 more amps than the 78 amp unit. This 8-10 amps make a big difference when you want to hit another accessory like lights, A/C, etc. Now with the 100 amp unit, worst case is I discharge maybe 5-10 amps when idling with EVERYTHING on which never happens. I also converted to LED lighting just about everywhere which helps on the load. I don't get the wild right swinging needle anymore when I take off after idling.
Here is a picture of the little you can see of my alternator. It's buried under heater hoses and my A/C lines...
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Re: HIgh output alternators
[Re: floridian]
#1588925
03/07/14 05:18 PM
03/07/14 05:18 PM
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cjskotni
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Quote:
What about the Billet customs from Quality power auto.. 125 amps at idle?? Expensive but what do our cars need ( amps) at idle??
This is what I measured with clamp gauges on my 1973 Charger:
- engine ignition circuit 15 amps - electric choke 1 amp - Retro sound stereo (no external amp) < 1 amp - headlights 13 amps - brights 18 amps - electric fans 20 amps (you don't have) - A/C clutch 4 amps - HVAC blower 5-8 amps - interior/exterior/brake lighting (LED) 4-5amps
Pick your loads and add them up! Your lighting circuit will be considerably higher than mine if you don't have LED bulbs. I would say 10-12 amps higher.
Some discharge is OK if it happens occasionally and isn't deep like over 5-10 amps or so. It is the deep discharge/deep charge cycles that occur when you idle then take off that wear out these harnesses and melt connectors/gauges etc. Puny alternators that are 10-20+ amps behind at idle and then have to replenish that charge every time you stop/go will wear out the wiring.
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Re: HIgh output alternators
[Re: cjskotni]
#1588926
03/07/14 07:24 PM
03/07/14 07:24 PM
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NachoRT74
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Quote:
Quote:
I was allmost to pull the trigger for the TuffStuff alt, but emailed them asking for iddle specs and told me their alt put at iddle around 45 amps. That retracted me on pull the trigger.
I don't need 100 amps alt max output, I need/wish 55 amps at iddle.
I'm not sure who you talked to, but their own spec shows 60 amps at idle (800 engine RPM). I think that is a bit generous as it starts to discharge slightly when my loads approach 50-55 amps when the car is idling (750 RPM). These alternators drop off fast when you lower RPM's so if you aren't idling at 800 RPM in gear, then you are already going to be lower than the advertised idle output of any alternator.
Before this I tried the 78 amp squareback, and this one is perceptibly better. I'm not going to say way better but it doesn't discharge as deeply when those electric fans go on at idle. At idle, this one seems to put out around 8-10 more amps than the 78 amp unit. This 8-10 amps make a big difference when you want to hit another accessory like lights, A/C, etc. Now with the 100 amp unit, worst case is I discharge maybe 5-10 amps when idling with EVERYTHING on which never happens. I also converted to LED lighting just about everywhere which helps on the load. I don't get the wild right swinging needle anymore when I take off after idling.
Here is a picture of the little you can see of my alternator. It's buried under heater hoses and my A/C lines...
THAT'S what I did know to know!!!
and GREAT THANKS FOR THE PICS..
when I asked they didn't know to response the next question I did too, how do they looked like ? like lates 70s and 80s ( 78 amps ) alts which are wider and stator hidden by the housing or really they are like the ones our car should get, with stator visible between housing halves!!!
so THEY ARE correct look for our cars!!!
now... thinking again on pull the trigger someday in the future!!!
With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
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Re: HIgh output alternators
[Re: floridian]
#1588929
03/11/14 04:02 PM
03/11/14 04:02 PM
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cjskotni
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Quote:
Small update here:
Had my old alternator ( not the rebuilt on the car) tested. Puts out 55 amps total.. Alternator store was unable to spin it at low RPM to tell me what it puts out at idle..
Did have the car out the other night.. Really doesn't do to bad ( voltage wize) at night until I turn on the heater at idle..
Did look into Quality power Autos high charge at idle claim on there hipo alts.. There Stats showed idle speed of 2500 RPM?? What kind of shmoo is that?? I am going to call them and see if they can tell what kinda amp output at 800 rpms...
Alternators are commonly specified in alternator RPM which with a standard pulley, is 3x engine RPM. So 2400 alternator RPM is considered 'idle' which correlates to 800 engine RPM with a standard pulley.
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Re: HIgh output alternators
[Re: cjskotni]
#1588930
03/11/14 05:24 PM
03/11/14 05:24 PM
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floridian
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Quote:
Quote:
Small update here:
Had my old alternator ( not the rebuilt on the car) tested. Puts out 55 amps total.. Alternator store was unable to spin it at low RPM to tell me what it puts out at idle..
Did have the car out the other night.. Really doesn't do to bad ( voltage wize) at night until I turn on the heater at idle..
Did look into Quality power Autos high charge at idle claim on there hipo alts.. There Stats showed idle speed of 2500 RPM?? What kind of shmoo is that?? I am going to call them and see if they can tell what kinda amp output at 800 rpms...
Alternators are commonly specified in alternator RPM which with a standard pulley, is 3x engine RPM. So 2400 alternator RPM is considered 'idle' which correlates to 800 engine RPM with a standard pulley.
thanks for explaining that.. Makes sense
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Re: HIgh output alternators
[Re: floridian]
#1588931
03/12/14 09:52 PM
03/12/14 09:52 PM
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MarkZ
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I bought the 60amp Denso and associated brackets from Mancini when I went to Edelbrock heads. With the old factory setup it would do the same thing you're describing, but with the new Denso, even at only 60 amps total, the idle charging issues cleared right up. http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/de60ampal.html
1987 Fifth Avenue - 512/518/D60
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Re: HIgh output alternators
[Re: cjskotni]
#1588932
03/12/14 10:19 PM
03/12/14 10:19 PM
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Sinitro
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Quote:
Quote:
What about the Billet customs from Quality power auto.. 125 amps at idle?? Expensive but what do our cars need ( amps) at idle??
This is what I measured with clamp gauges on my 1973 Charger:
- engine ignition circuit 15 amps - electric choke 1 amp - Retro sound stereo (no external amp) < 1 amp - headlights 13 amps - brights 18 amps - electric fans 20 amps (you don't have) - A/C clutch 4 amps - HVAC blower 5-8 amps - interior/exterior/brake lighting (LED) 4-5amps
Pick your loads and add them up! Your lighting circuit will be considerably higher than mine if you don't have LED bulbs. I would say 10-12 amps higher.
Some discharge is OK if it happens occasionally and isn't deep like over 5-10 amps or so. It is the deep discharge/deep charge cycles that occur when you idle then take off that wear out these harnesses and melt connectors/gauges etc. Puny alternators that are 10-20+ amps behind at idle and then have to replenish that charge every time you stop/go will wear out the wiring.
The 20 amps for electric fans looks low.. Usually thats the draw per fan... Also they typically pull even more when Powered ON..
Just my $0.05...
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Re: HIgh output alternators
[Re: Sinitro]
#1588933
03/13/14 12:52 AM
03/13/14 12:52 AM
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cjskotni
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quote]The 20 amps for electric fans looks low.. Usually thats the draw per fan... Also they typically pull even more when Powered ON.. Just my $0.05...
Manufacturer specs state 20 amp draw and this was confirmed with a professional set of clamp gauges. When the fans engage, it does have a momentary spike of around 40 amps but only for about a half second. This is common with any inductive load like a motor.
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