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Re: Coughing/popping when revved [Re: HemiSportFury] #1585463
03/11/14 05:57 PM
03/11/14 05:57 PM
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mopowers Offline OP
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Quote:

Have you checked your alternator output voltage as you rev the engine? Maybe your voltage regulator is bad and it's producing too much voltage and that's pulling the starter relay in.




Stupid question time... What's the easiest way to check alternator output and what should it be? I'm assuming I just check the voltage output on the battery lug of the alternator? Should it stay constant as ~14 volts as I bring the rpms up? Because I have noticed that as I bring the rpms up, my volt gauge shows the voltage going up as well. I thought that was somewhat normal.

I have a single field alt and have bypassed the ammeter if that matters. And my alternator charges directly to the starter relay.

Re: Coughing/popping when revved [Re: HemiSportFury] #1585464
03/11/14 06:07 PM
03/11/14 06:07 PM
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I see what happened now. I've seen that diagram before & it has an error in that the yellow wire that goes from the ign sw to the starter relay should not be T ing & going to the ballast as seen in the pic. I'd assume the prior owner saw that & wired it up that way which that way erroneously when the voltage gets high enough it is going to trigger the starter relay to engage the starter which is what has been going on.


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Re: Coughing/popping when revved [Re: RapidRobert] #1585465
03/11/14 06:25 PM
03/11/14 06:25 PM
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Yes, just check with a voltage meter. If it keeps going up as you rev the engine and not stabilize around 14 it is bad.

Sounds like you are getting close to solving the problem. Good tenacity for staying after it!


'64 Sport Fury, 528 Hemi, FiTech EFI, 4-speed, 4.10 Dana 60
'57 Belvedere 2dr sedan, current project in process
'19 Cherokee Trail Hawk Elite
'03 Ram 2500 CTD HO, 6-speed 214,000 miles and still going strong
Re: Coughing/popping when revved [Re: HemiSportFury] #1585466
03/11/14 10:13 PM
03/11/14 10:13 PM
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Alright guys, I'm getting closer. Upon further wiring inspection, here is what I found...

The yellow wire for the electronic ignition (cranking side) is pulling power from the starter relay trigger wire, which is a no-no (despite what the instruction sheet says.) This should pull 12V from the brown wire from the ignition switch.

The blue wire for the 'run' side of the electronic ignition ballast is pulling power from the output side of the existing original ballast resistor.

This means while the car is running, the power to the coil is running through the original ballast AND the new ballast for the electronic ignition. This also means the 12v supply to the ECU is being passed through the original ballast as well supplying it with only partial voltage.

So here are a couple other questions. Which one of the following should I do?

A) Snip the two messed up wires and route them correctly (the yellow going to the brown ignition 'start' wire, and the blue going to the 12v 'in' side of the original ballast. Or,

B) Pull the original ballast and use the new one for both the charging circuit and the electronic ignition?? Is this even possible???

Do the charging circuit and electronic ignition circuit use the same ohm ballast resistors? Do they require their own ballasts??


Thanks guys. I'm in the home stretch. It's amazing that this thing even ran!

Re: Coughing/popping when revved [Re: mopowers] #1585467
03/11/14 10:46 PM
03/11/14 10:46 PM
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this is a 2 terminal "single" ballast that comes with the orange box MP kit correct? If not (4 terminal "dual" ballast) holler. You only need 1 ballast. post the pri ohms of the two you have along with the pri ohms of the coil you are using & I'll give my on the best one to use. run the blue ign1 run wire (switched 12V) to the upstream "input" side of the ballast & T from right there to the "point" of the ECU which is the hot power in. connect the other "downstream" end of the ballast to the coil positive primary. Run the brown ign2 "crank" wire to the same "downstream" end of the ballast.


live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
Re: Coughing/popping when revved [Re: RapidRobert] #1585468
03/11/14 11:13 PM
03/11/14 11:13 PM
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Quote:

this is a 2 terminal "single" ballast that comes with the orange box MP kit correct? If not (4 terminal "dual" ballast) holler. You only need 1 ballast. post the pri ohms of the two you have along with the pri ohms of the coil you are using & I'll give my on the best one to use. run the blue ign1 run wire (switched 12V) to the upstream "input" side of the ballast & T from right there to the "point" of the ECU which is the hot power in. connect the other "downstream" end of the ballast to the coil positive primary. Run the brown ign2 "crank" wire to the same "downstream" end of the ballast.




Yes, both of the ballasts I've got in my enginge compartment are the 2 terminal 'single' ballasts. One is the original ballast, which still has the VR and wires coming from the ign switch hooked to it. The other was the one installed with the electronic ignition. The new one was installed pulling 'run' power from the output side of the original ballast and pulling 'crank' power from the yellow starter trigger wire.

Both ballasts are the same.

I just snipped the yellow wire and temporarily tapped into the brown "start" wire. I also, ran a jumper 12V wire to the 'run' side of the new ballast.

After turning the key on, I've got 10.7V from the upstream sides of both ballasts and 7.8V on the downstream sides. This is with the engine off and key turned to "on," or "run."

I'm pretty sure this'll work. Just curious if I could nix one of the ballasts and use a single ballast for both the charging circuit and the electronic ignition. Or will it overload the ballast?

Here is a picture of the two ballasts. you can see one on the right and one by the ECU.

Not sure how to test the ohms of the ballasts or the coil, but the coil is just a regular Chrysler coil, nothing special..

[

Re: Coughing/popping when revved [Re: mopowers] #1585469
03/11/14 11:22 PM
03/11/14 11:22 PM
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You only use 1 ballast. I'll assume the one on the dr side is the OE points ballast which the last high mileage one I checked was 1.6 ohms. The one with the orange box MP kit is a nominal 1.25 ohms. Either will work fine with your app but only use one & I'd wire it as I posted.


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Re: Coughing/popping when revved [Re: RapidRobert] #1585470
03/11/14 11:34 PM
03/11/14 11:34 PM
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Quote:

You only use 1 ballast. I'll assume the one on the dr side is the OE points ballast which the last high mileage one I checked was 1.6 ohms. The one with the orange box MP kit is a nominal 1.25 ohms. Either will work fine with your app but only use one & I'd wire it as I posted.




Ok, thanks Robert! So, if I wire it the way you stated, can I just eliminate the original ballast on the DS and run the blue VR wire to the upstream 12V run side of the ballast on the pass side by the ECU? That means I'd have three wires going into the upstream terminal of the ballast- 1 for the ECU, one switched 12V, and one from the VR. The other side of the ballast would have the brown 'start wire' and the (+) coil wire. Does this sounds right?

Thanks again guys for all the help. I just fired this thing up temporarily and it fired right up. Just gotta clean up the wiring and eliminate one of the ballasts and I should be good to go.

Re: Coughing/popping when revved [Re: mopowers] #1585471
03/11/14 11:54 PM
03/11/14 11:54 PM
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That sounds right, just have the blue ign1 "run" wire coming out of the bulkhead going straight over to the triple T you mentioned on the upstream side of the pass ballast rather than going to the dr ballast as it was originally.


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Re: Coughing/popping when revved [Re: RapidRobert] #1585472
03/12/14 12:01 AM
03/12/14 12:01 AM
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Perfect. Thanks Robert! I appreciate it! I owe ya one. I'm going to head to the electronic store this weekend to get a few feet of the colors I need, so it'll be easy to follow in the future.

Any idea what gauge these wires are? I'm guessing 16g? Am I even going to be able to crimp 3- 16g wires into a spade connector??? I may have to get creative.

I'll let you know when I get it fired up!

Re: Coughing/popping when revved [Re: mopowers] #1585473
03/12/14 12:17 AM
03/12/14 12:17 AM
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You might get one of those double or triple brass male/female taps at your parts house. They look unsightly but they do work or instead of crimping/soldering all 3 together you might put one of em at another correct terminal location in the blue wire circuit so they ain't all ganged up on 1 terminal plus it'll look much better. I ain't sure on the gauge.


live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
Re: Coughing/popping when revved [Re: RapidRobert] #1585474
03/12/14 01:58 PM
03/12/14 01:58 PM
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That's a good idea, I'll just run the blue switched 12v directly to the VR and run one from there over the input side of the ballast, where it'll meet the supply for the ECU. That way I'll have two going into the ballast and two going into the VR instead of 3 and 1.

In case people were curious, after some searching, here are the gauges for the wires I'm replacing-

Yellow ignition trigger starter relay wire- 18 gauge

Brown start trigger wire for ignition ballast bypass- 14 gauge

Dark blue w/ tracer switched 12V for VR- 16 gauge

Dark blue switched 12V from VR to upstream side of ballast 16 or 18 gauge

Re: Coughing/popping when revved [Re: mopowers] #1585475
03/12/14 02:44 PM
03/12/14 02:44 PM
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had a similar problem once on my old '68 dart 340.

it turned out to be...

the distributor cap had a hairline crack. you could only see the crack if you held it up to the light.

common issue if you recently changed the headers (jacked up the engine) or broke a motor mount etc because the smallblock dizzy will hit the firewall

yours could be a different problem. but it's like a $5 / 5minute fix
worth a try

Re: Coughing/popping when revved [Re: RapidRobert] #1585476
03/12/14 04:41 PM
03/12/14 04:41 PM
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I was wondering what the ballast on the wiper is for. I have one on my 70 Challenger also and one for the ignition.

Last edited by dan9; 03/12/14 04:41 PM.
Re: Coughing/popping when revved [Re: dan9] #1585477
03/13/14 11:32 AM
03/13/14 11:32 AM
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Quote:

I was wondering what the ballast on the wiper is for. I have one on my 70 Challenger also and one for the ignition.




I noticed that on mine too. I'm not sure what that's for. I'll probably look into that next.

Re: Coughing/popping when revved [Re: mopowers] #1585478
03/13/14 02:11 PM
03/13/14 02:11 PM
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The wiper ballast is to let the wipers park.


I love the smell of Deer guts in the morning, it smells like... VICTORY!
Re: Coughing/popping when revved [Re: GODSCOUNTRY340] #1585479
03/14/14 01:23 PM
03/14/14 01:23 PM
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Quote:

The wiper ballast is to let the wipers park.




Thanks! Did not know that.

Re: Coughing/popping when revved [Re: mopowers] #1585480
03/17/14 03:37 PM
03/17/14 03:37 PM
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Well, I finally I finished wiring it. I ended up making a new yellow starter trigger wire, eliminated the old original ballast and ran a new brown wire to the new ballast for a 'cranking 12v', ran a new blue 12v run wire to the VR and one from there to the 'run' side of the ballast. It really cleaned up the engine bay. I crimped, soldered and heat shrinked all the connections and it turned out pretty clean. I didn't use any butt connectors and used all factory colors, so trouble shooting down the road will be easier. All I have left to do is buy some sort of braided loom or tape to cover the wiring. Is there a product you guys recommend??? I just hate electrical tape because it just makes a goopy mess.

More importantly, it fired right up and seemed to idle a lot smoother now that the coil (+) wire is only going through one ballast and the ECU is seeing a true 12V. Of course, the popping and voltage drop at higher rpms was gone as well.

After taking it for a spin, everything seems to be working as expected. It gets a little warm for my liking, but that may be cured by a simple thermostat change. It seems a little gutless as well, but I'm sure bolting on the set of Dougs headers I have and the RPM Air Gap will help; as will a good convertor.

Thanks again for the help guys. I really do appreciate it. This has been such a great learning experience.

Re: Coughing/popping when revved [Re: mopowers] #1585481
03/17/14 04:31 PM
03/17/14 04:31 PM
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All the restoration Vendors sell the non stick tape that was used by the factory for you to re-wrap you harnesses.
Good to hear you solved it.

Years ago I put together my Dart Sport with a warmed over 440 etc..
Couldn't get the engine to go over 4000RPM.
All the engine harnesses were cut and taped by previous owner so I went to a local cab company that had old cabs sitting that they used as parts cars and I bought the harness out of a 318 car and modified it to work with my 440 swap.

Took the car up the block to a deserted street next to a school at night and stood on it. The car jumped up to 6500 smoking the tires going sideways to the 2nd gear shift and just revved up to the 3rd gear pull. Guys playing softball in the yard were glued to the fence and cheering, never forget that day...
Ron

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