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Re: Predictions on ET increases with new motor? [Re: WadeMetzinger] #1574617
02/23/14 02:53 PM
02/23/14 02:53 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
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BradH Offline
Taking time off to work on my car
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Val-haul-ass... eventually
"... ET increases..."
I think you mean ET reduction or improvement since an increase in ET means the car slowed down.
/

Re: Predictions on ET increases with new motor? [Re: BradH] #1574618
02/23/14 03:40 PM
02/23/14 03:40 PM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 698
Alberta Canada
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Edge Offline
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Alberta Canada
As mentioned above not likely to pick up a great deal of hp but torque will move up for sure. Should improve in the 60 foot however may not see MPH increase much more than 1 mph unless your converter was leaving alot on the table. I would guess .1 to ,15 increase. Maybe more depending on how the converter likes the converter changes. FWIW I have had best luck just getting a new converter as opposed to tweaking old ones.


76 Duster work in progress
Re: Predictions on ET increases with new motor? [Re: Edge] #1574619
02/23/14 09:43 PM
02/23/14 09:43 PM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,675
Akron, Ohio U.S.A.
roadhazard Offline
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Looks like a nice build Wade

I do have one question, is there any reason your leaving the piston to head @ .062" ?

I see your piston's are in the hole .011" and your using a .051" gasket.

Re: Predictions on ET increases with new motor? [Re: roadhazard] #1574620
02/23/14 11:28 PM
02/23/14 11:28 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 656
Kokomo, IN
540dust Offline
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One question, you stated "- Lunati Roller Cam .678/.678 lift, 278/286 duration @.050, 112 Lob Sep, 108 Centerline (~.030 more lift, 6 degrees more duration on both int & exh, same Lobe Sep and Centerline)".
Is this spec'd with 1.5 or with 1.6 rockers? If its .678" lift with a 1.5 rocker and you are using a 1.6, I think the spring will be very close to binding at lift. Documentation on those springs (PAC 1325) say bind at 1.150" which would make it real close, too close I would think. Just something to check.

The build looks cool to me I would put my money on at least .2 sec. quicker.

Re: Predictions on ET increases with new motor? [Re: roadhazard] #1574621
02/24/14 01:57 PM
02/24/14 01:57 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 2,073
Tulsa, Ok
WadeMetzinger Offline OP
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Quote:

Looks like a nice build Wade

I do have one question, is there any reason your leaving the piston to head @ .062" ?

I see your piston's are in the hole .011" and your using a .051" gasket.




The pistons just ended up .011 in the hole and I just thought I'd go with the Fel-Pro 1039 composite head gaskets. They work well for this bore and compression and were a lot cheaper than Cosmetics.

I didn't know where the pistons were in the block before ordering them. I'd rather run a .030 or .040 but I "think" .062 will work ok, let me know if you guys think I'm making a mistake and should go ahead and get a .040 Cometic gasket.

Re: Predictions on ET increases with new motor? [Re: 540dust] #1574622
02/24/14 02:02 PM
02/24/14 02:02 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 2,073
Tulsa, Ok
WadeMetzinger Offline OP
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Quote:



One question, you stated "- Lunati Roller Cam .678/.678 lift, 278/286 duration @.050, 112 Lob Sep, 108 Centerline (~.030 more lift, 6 degrees more duration on both int & exh, same Lobe Sep and Centerline)".
Is this spec'd with 1.5 or with 1.6 rockers? If its .678" lift with a 1.5 rocker and you are using a 1.6, I think the spring will be very close to binding at lift. Documentation on those springs (PAC 1325) say bind at 1.150" which would make it real close, too close I would think. Just something to check.

The build looks cool to me I would put my money on at least .2 sec. quicker.




I already did the conversion for the 1.6 rockers. The cam spec is for 1.5 and lift is .636 so with 1.6 the lift will be .678. When I spoke to PAC about the cam and springs they are the ones who told me to shoot for 1.910 install height so it would be a little closer to coil bind.

I didn't know I needed to add any more to the duration, so if your saying I need to add 6 degrees for the 1.6, my duration will be 284/292 rather than 278/286. Thanks for pointing that out.

Re: Predictions on ET increases with new motor? [Re: WadeMetzinger] #1574623
02/24/14 02:31 PM
02/24/14 02:31 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,664
North Sweden
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Quote:

Quote:

Looks like a nice build Wade

I do have one question, is there any reason your leaving the piston to head @ .062" ?

I see your piston's are in the hole .011" and your using a .051" gasket.




The pistons just ended up .011 in the hole and I just thought I'd go with the Fel-Pro 1039 composite head gaskets. They work well for this bore and compression and were a lot cheaper than Cosmetics.

I didn't know where the pistons were in the block before ordering them. I'd rather run a .030 or .040 but I "think" .062 will work ok, let me know if you guys think I'm making a mistake and should go ahead and get a .040 Cometic gasket.




For better quench and to bump up the CR for the 112 LSA, yes I would buy .040 Cometics, or even .035 if they are available that size?
If your block surface and head surface are not smooth, maybe it is time to fix that to.

Re: “Frankenstein” is almost alive! [Re: WadeMetzinger] #1574624
03/11/14 02:03 PM
03/11/14 02:03 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 2,073
Tulsa, Ok
WadeMetzinger Offline OP
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Finally got all the machine work done and assembled the motor this weekend. We installed it in the car last night. Tranny is supposed to be finished tomorrow so we will put it in Thursday and then I’m taking Friday off to try to get everything hooked up and started and might be able to make it to Test-n-Tune Saturday. The chassis guy is also coming over Friday to install the modified ladder bars and scale/setup the car. (I had him make my not adjustable ladder bars adjustable without having to take them loose to adjust them).

Measured for pushrods and found that I needed to make some additional clearance for Pushrod in the heads and also for 2 of the HS rocker arms, the pad under the shafts (they weren’t touching but I couldn’t see day light either).

I hate doing clearance on the heads after they are fully assembled and ready to go from the machine shop (new Manley valves/locks/lash caps, PAC 1325 springs/Ti retainer, set up at 1.910 315lbs seat and 750 open) but it’s much better than doing it on the motor and in the car… Blew them off, washed in the parts washer, blew them off again and again.. Then I switched #1 spring with light springs so I could check pushrod clearance and see how much aluminum shavings were still there and they were pretty clean.

Ring Gap (running alcohol) 4.440 bore - .020 top and .025 2nd and oil rings pulled about 15lbs with the fish scale so I left them alone.
Total Seal Plasma Moly and ductile Iron rings 1/16 1/16 3/16 standard tension oil rings

Degreed the cam in at 104.5 (162 .05 after intake high lift + 47 before intake high lift = 209 /2), which is 4 degrees advanced from the cam card but it was set at 108 and said it was also 4 degrees advanced so I guess it’s in at 7.5 degree advanced. Machinist thought the cam was too big so he wanted me to install it at 104 to increase the cylinder pressure and get it to make good power down low. (.680/.680 284/292 @.050 112 lobe sep & 108 Intake center line (I bought it for $15 and had Lunati regrind it using 53714LUN specs but kept the LS/IC per Lunati for $150)

Rod Clearance .003

Main Clearance .003 (I had to order some x bearings because with the standard bearings I only had .0015 to .002)

Piston to Valve Clearance:
.100 Exhaust – (.060 measured + .25 lash + .15 for roller springs since I was using light checking springs)
.140 Intake – (.100 measured + .25 lash + .15 for roller springs since I was using light checking springs)

Rod side clearance .032

Crankshaft end play .003

Camshaft end play .012

Piston to Head Clearance .061 (.010 in the hole and .051 head gasket)

70 cc Indy 440-1 head chamber volume

13:1 compression (4.440 Bore, 4.25 stroke K1 crank, 7.100 Eagle Rods, 1.480 compression heights, .051/4.590 bore FelPro 1039 head gasket, .010 piston in the hole, -3.4cc piston valve reliefs, 70cc head combustion chamber volume.

Pre-oiled it with the drill motor, it had 80 psi so I adjusted it down to 65 using the Milodon adjustable oil pressure regulator. I’m starting it with Rotella 15w-40 and after a few weekends I’ll switch over to Rotella T6 Synthetic 5w-40. So the pressure will be a little high until I switch over to the Synthetic.

8069994-Motor_2014.JPG (283 downloads)
Re: Predictions on ET increases with new motor? [Re: WadeMetzinger] #1574625
03/11/14 02:51 PM
03/11/14 02:51 PM
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 655
Huntsville, AL
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Airwoofer Offline
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Huntsville, AL
Quote:

So if I uses those number for OOTB -1's 282/185 and he increased flow 42/12 it would be 332/197. Here are my flow numbers:

----- Intake -----
Lift OTB Ported Change
100 65 69 4
200 126 140 14
300 183 195 12
400 232 247 15
450 251 264 13
500 265 278 13
550 270 294 24
600 269 301 32
650 272 309 37
700 274 316 42


------ Exhaust ------
Lift OTB Ported Change
100 61 70 9
200 115 116 1
300 153 150 -3
400 182 181 -1
450 190 192 2
500 196 201 5
550 201 207 6
600 203 212 9
650 206 217 11
700 209 221 12

"Int / Exh %"
101%
83%
77%
73%
73%
72%
70%
70%
70%
70%




This is what my 440-1 heads (CNC 325 from Indy, fixed by Jim LaRoy in Idaho) flow. Before is as recieved, after is after his valve job. They could use bigger intakes to help the mid flows:

lift............before..........after

.100..........69/61.........80/68
.200........144/123......158/134
.300........215/172......226/183
.400........274/217......277/229
.500........321/251......320/265
.600........346/280......349/290
.700........362/301......368/307
.800........372/317......372/327


Re: “Frankenstein” is almost alive! [Re: WadeMetzinger] #1574626
03/11/14 11:38 PM
03/11/14 11:38 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
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Joplin, Mo
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rt66jim Offline
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Joplin, Mo
You are making nice progress Wade.

Re: “Frankenstein” is almost alive! [Re: rt66jim] #1574627
03/12/14 03:21 PM
03/12/14 03:21 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 2,073
Tulsa, Ok
WadeMetzinger Offline OP
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Tulsa, Ok
I had a little bit of a scare Monday night. When the motor blew last fall I didn't see any water in the diaper or pan so I assumed the damage didn't get into the water jackets. We pulled the header bolts out of the front and back of the headers as they held the diaper strap brackets to get the diaper off at the track so it wouldn't leak oil on the road all the way home (since it was holding 9Qts of oil). But after we got it home and let it sit for a week, when we went back out pull the motor I noticed there was some water/anti-freeze on the floor mixed in with the oil... We assumed it was coming from the header bolts but need to make sure.

So after we pulled the block and took it to the machine shop we pressure checked it and it held pressure so that's where is must have came from.

So Monday as we are about to put the motor in, I put the diaper on as it's easier to do before you get it in the car and look in the header bolt holes and they all appeared to be blind/solid holes.... (so now I'm questioning if we pressure checked it correctly... if they are blind hole where did the water come from, I have this motor completely assembled, pre-oiled and ready to put in and start this weekend.... am I just going to start it and find out the block is damaged and I'm going to have water in the oil....)

I mentioned this to a friend that was in the shop rebuilding my tranny and he took a look and he pointed out that there was a pin hole on the back/bottom of the front passenger side header bolt hole so I took another look and whew, there it was so now I feel much better now that I know where the water came from. It's just really hard to see. I typically put some silicon on the front and back header bolt just from the past with other heads but that was just out of habit and not because I thought I needed to...

Re: “Frankenstein” is almost alive! [Re: WadeMetzinger] #1574628
03/13/14 01:23 PM
03/13/14 01:23 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 2,073
Tulsa, Ok
WadeMetzinger Offline OP
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Tulsa, Ok
<cricket's chirping>

No one has any questions or comments?

I post to get feedback, learn from other and hopefully help some people out that may be learning (I can't begin to tell you how much I've learned from Moparts).

There have been over 400 views of this thread since I made the update post on Tuesday and only 2 comments....

<cricket's chirping>

Re: “Frankenstein” is almost alive! [Re: WadeMetzinger] #1574629
03/15/14 09:21 AM
03/15/14 09:21 AM
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 40
Flint, Michigan
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ex_cuda_guy Offline
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Flint, Michigan
water in the oil is scary..glad you found the problem...guess we all have been thru that kind of thing...

Re: “Frankenstein” is almost alive! [Re: ex_cuda_guy] #1574630
03/15/14 01:26 PM
03/15/14 01:26 PM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 778
Sherwood park, Alberta.
go green Offline
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Posts: 778
Sherwood park, Alberta.
Get your KB block yet ?



6.50 @ 226 MPH 4.25 @ 186 MPH
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YX86DHGKBo0
Re: “Frankenstein” is almost alive! [Re: go green] #1574631
03/15/14 02:23 PM
03/15/14 02:23 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 6,545
Downtown Roebuck Ont
Twostick Online content
Still wishing...
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Downtown Roebuck Ont
So the header bolt holes aren't blind?

Kevin

Re: “Frankenstein” is almost alive! [Re: WadeMetzinger] #1574632
03/15/14 06:08 PM
03/15/14 06:08 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,791
MI, usa
dvw Offline
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Quote:

I had a little bit of a scare Monday night. When the motor blew last fall I didn't see any water in the diaper or pan so I assumed the damage didn't get into the water jackets. We pulled the header bolts out of the front and back of the headers as they held the diaper strap brackets to get the diaper off at the track so it wouldn't leak oil on the road all the way home (since it was holding 9Qts of oil). But after we got it home and let it sit for a week, when we went back out pull the motor I noticed there was some water/anti-freeze on the floor mixed in with the oil... We assumed it was coming from the header bolts but need to make sure.

So after we pulled the block and took it to the machine shop we pressure checked it and it held pressure so that's where is must have came from.

So Monday as we are about to put the motor in, I put the diaper on as it's easier to do before you get it in the car and look in the header bolt holes and they all appeared to be blind/solid holes.... (so now I'm questioning if we pressure checked it correctly... if they are blind hole where did the water come from, I have this motor completely assembled, pre-oiled and ready to put in and start this weekend.... am I just going to start it and find out the block is damaged and I'm going to have water in the oil....)

I mentioned this to a friend that was in the shop rebuilding my tranny and he took a look and he pointed out that there was a pin hole on the back/bottom of the front passenger side header bolt hole so I took another look and whew, there it was so now I feel much better now that I know where the water came from. It's just really hard to see. I typically put some silicon on the front and back header bolt just from the past with other heads but that was just out of habit and not because I thought I needed to...




2 of my header bolt holes on my current Indy -1 go into water. I believe they're supposed to be blind. I sealed them with no issue.
Doug

Re: “Frankenstein” is almost alive! [Re: dvw] #1574633
03/15/14 10:27 PM
03/15/14 10:27 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,002
Joplin, Mo
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rt66jim Offline
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So Wade did you make it? And if so what did it run?

Re: “Frankenstein” is almost alive! [Re: rt66jim] #1574634
03/16/14 02:52 AM
03/16/14 02:52 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 2,073
Tulsa, Ok
WadeMetzinger Offline OP
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Go green, no KB block yet, expect to see it this next week...

On mine the exhaust bolt farthest to the right as you looking at the motor from the side of the car is not blind and is in water so I just put red RTV on those two bolts.

Jim, I would have but they move test-n-tune from Saturday to Friday night because of the rain forecast for Saturday but it never rained... I was up till 3:30am Thursday night and worked all day Friday to try to make it out Friday night but didn't make it because of a small issuer with the tranny. We fired it up about 5:30 got it warmed up and then checked the tranny and it didn't move so we had to drop the pan and hook up something the tranny guy forgot about, luckily he was still there and was able to fix it.

So it was 7:45 when we were finally ready but by the time I would get to the track and be ready to make a pass it would have been 9:15 and the track would have been starting to get cold and I didn't think that was the best condition to make the first pass. So I just started to tie up loose ends and will be ready for nespxt weekend.

When I was mocking it up I noticed the push rod clearance was tight so I did so e grinding on the heads before putting them on but I didn't do enough so I did some additional clearancing on the heads today, hate doing that with them on the motor but I did all I could to get the shavings out. Thie witness marks in the lush rods told me where I needed to do the additional clearancing.

Started it up on gas and then ran it for about 20 minutes, about 5 of those at 200 so the rings should be good and seated. Then we switched it over to alcohol and adjust the carb, etc for another 10 min.

Checked valve lash and tightened the intake and exhaust bolts as it was cooling down. The cold oil pressure at idle was 60 and 40 hot at idle. Climbed up to 80psi we I rev'd it up.

I'm going to cut open the filter tomorrow and it should be ready to go.

Re: “Frankenstein” is almost alive! [Re: WadeMetzinger] #1574635
03/16/14 01:17 PM
03/16/14 01:17 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,917
NC
440Jim Offline
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Posts: 16,917
NC
Quote:

I mentioned this to a friend that was in the shop rebuilding my tranny and he took a look and he pointed out that there was a pin hole on the back/bottom of the front passenger side header bolt hole so I took another look and whew, there it was so now I feel much better now that I know where the water came from.


Thanks for the heads up about the possibility of the Indy holes leaking water. My old 440-1 heads never leaked water from the header bolt holes. But this year I have a newer set of CNC-345 heads so I just went in the garage and checked them (not on the motor). None of the holes leaked into the water passages. Glad to see it wasn't a "feature" of the newer Indy heads. Seems like only some heads hit water (machined too deep maybe?).

Re: “Frankenstein” is almost alive! [Re: WadeMetzinger] #1574636
03/16/14 01:25 PM
03/16/14 01:25 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,917
NC
440Jim Offline
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Posts: 16,917
NC
Quote:

Degreed the cam in at 104.5 (162 .05 after intake high lift + 47 before intake high lift = 209 /2), which is 4 degrees advanced from the cam card but it was set at 108 and said it was also 4 degrees advanced so I guess it’s in at 7.5 degree advanced. Machinist thought the cam was too big so he wanted me to install it at 104 to increase the cylinder pressure and get it to make good power down low. (.680/.680 284/292 @.050 112 lobe sep & 108 Intake center line


I am considering a cam with about the same duration for my new motor. I think the 13 CR should be enough for that cam (more might be better), mine will be 13.4 so it is close to yours. I do have a 3 speed trans so I am going for more hp rather than midrange torque. A good race car has 5500-6000 converter anyway! LOL My old motor had more torque than it needed any way (279/287 at 0.050 cam).

With you installing it at 105ish with 112 LSA that is advanced plenty, I might have only put it at 109. Let us know how the PG does at the launch. Didn't you have a little less CID last year?

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