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Its not just zoomies Wayne. When you go from long under chassis headers to big tube, short runner fender exits, you get the same effect. Have to recalibrate everything and lower the idle. Seen it on every car I have ever built fender exits for. The word you are looking for though is exhaust BACKPRESSURE. That is what makes the choppy idle and correctly, zoomies have little to any exhaust backpressure.

Monte

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Exactly...I was going through vids on YouTube last night and I couldn't find even ONE car that had fender exit headers that had a "lopey" idle... I started to post some links in this thread, but I didn't want to keep beating a dead horse since some on here are WAAAAAY to close minded to learn something.....

You'd think that P-body would have noticed that out of all the smart people on this board, not even ONE single person considered taking me up on my bet... or maye he did and figured he'd be smart to keep his money??

The motor I was dealing with idled at 1,500rpm with the throttle blades closed ALL the way...it was actually running off the fresh air that it was pulling in through the short headers...so it had to be reversion pulling in that fresh air.... but what do I know, I never worked in a "lab at Chrysler".........

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Its not just zoomies Wayne. When you go from long under chassis headers to big tube, short runner fender exits, you get the same effect. Have to recalibrate everything and lower the idle. Seen it on every car I have ever built fender exits for. The word you are looking for though is exhaust BACKPRESSURE. That is what makes the choppy idle and correctly, zoomies have little to any exhaust backpressure.

Monte

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Exactly...I was going through vids on YouTube last night and I couldn't find even ONE car that had fender exit headers that had a "lopey" idle... I started to post some links in this thread, but I didn't want to keep beating a dead horse since some on here are WAAAAAY to close minded to learn something.....

You'd think that P-body would have noticed that out of all the smart people on this board, not even ONE single person considered taking me up on my bet... or maye he did and figured he'd be smart to keep his money??

The motor I was dealing with idled at 1,500rpm with the throttle blades closed ALL the way...it was actually running off the fresh air that it was pulling in through the short headers...so it had to be reversion pulling in that fresh air.... but what do I know, I never worked in a "lab at Chrysler".........

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OK.... I still believe its not the zoomies(per say)
they dont have a collector to draft in part of the
next fuel charge... a blown/pressurized engine doesnt
want or need a collector to draft the charge due to
the pressure.... like I said on my engine.. 2 cams
one wide LSA and a narrow one.. the wide was smooth
and narrow had the choppy idle and I stayed with
the
narrow for the lower end torque

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Its not just zoomies Wayne. When you go from long under chassis headers to big tube, short runner fender exits, you get the same effect. Have to recalibrate everything and lower the idle. Seen it on every car I have ever built fender exits for. The word you are looking for though is exhaust BACKPRESSURE. That is what makes the choppy idle and correctly, zoomies have little to any exhaust backpressure.

Monte

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Exactly...I was going through vids on YouTube last night and I couldn't find even ONE car that had fender exit headers that had a "lopey" idle... I started to post some links in this thread, but I didn't want to keep beating a dead horse since some on here are WAAAAAY to close minded to learn something.....

You'd think that P-body would have noticed that out of all the smart people on this board, not even ONE single person considered taking me up on my bet... or maye he did and figured he'd be smart to keep his money??

The motor I was dealing with idled at 1,500rpm with the throttle blades closed ALL the way...it was actually running off the fresh air that it was pulling in through the short headers...so it had to be reversion pulling in that fresh air.... but what do I know, I never worked in a "lab at Chrysler".........

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OK.... I still believe its not the zoomies(per say)
they dont have a collector to draft in part of the
next fuel charge... a blown/pressurized engine doesnt
want or need a collector to draft the charge due to
the pressure.... like I said on my engine.. 2 cams
one wide LSA and a narrow one.. the wide was smooth
and narrow had the choppy idle and I stayed with
the
narrow for the lower end torque

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NOT getting in on the argument Mr P........but the cam profile changed the exhaust pulse, which in turn effects the exhaust backpressure.......Sooooo, in a sense YOU are right, because a cam change effected idle with same exhaust.....BUT on the other side HE is right, because the cam profile change, effected the exhaust pulse, which changed the back pressure and produced the idle difference.........Now, group hug

Monte

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Wow... Nothing but crickets...

You'd think that if someone were to call me a liar and then say I'm bluffing on the bet would step up and own their statements and gladly take my money??

You can't be a puddin' boy all your life....Teach me a lesson and take my money Mr. KnowEverything....

Maybe you're afraid that you're not as smart as you want everyone to believe??? If that's the case, you should be more careful at choosing your battles and who you call a liar and BSer....

I'm nowhere near being a genius and I've never called or insinuated you're an idiot....but you're not too smart for calling me a liar and BSer because anyone that knows me knows I'm not that way... and unlike you, I don't post in a thread unless I know a LOT about the subject and have first hand experience........

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NOT getting in on the argument Mr P........but the cam profile changed the exhaust pulse, which in turn effects the exhaust backpressure.......Sooooo, in a sense YOU are right, because a cam change effected idle with same exhaust.....BUT on the other side HE is right, because the cam profile change, effected the exhaust pulse, which changed the back pressure and produced the idle difference.........Now, group hug

Monte

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These are his words, Monte;

"Over lap is drawing in part of the next fuel charge...

and that's 100% incorrect and what I'm debating.......The fact is, overlap is drawing in part of the exhaust charge, causing the "lopey" idle......

When I said; "Contrary to popular belief, the camshaft is not what makes a "lopey" idle.... I believe people are taking it out of context......OF COURSE the camshaft is effecting the idle and making it "lopey" or not...DUH ...what I mean by that statement is that if there isn't a relatively long header tube, the motor WOULD not idle "lopey", so the "cam" ITSELF really isn't what's making a motor idle "lopey", it's the fact that exhaust is running back up the intake tract (reversion) because of overlap COMBINED with a relatively long header and the engine is actually idling on exhaust.....and to prove that, all anyone has to do is put a set of zoomies OR open shorty headers on their motor that has quite a bit of overlap in the camshaft and they'll see the idle smooth right out for themselves....... or, for enough money, I'll bring a motor on a stand to their front door and show them......

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I'll take you up on your bet if you do it on your Blown Nitro Injected Altered Wheelbase Lenco Tranny Street Car 65 Plymouth.......or even "Brown Sugar"........Hurry Up, Post the video, Collect your cash !!! Surely one of them must be ready to go by now, JUST ONE, you've had 10 years on the AWB Car, and 5 or 6 years on Brown Sugar......

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Hahahaha.....I sold the '65 because I couldn't headsup Class race it and to finish BS.......BS is getting very close .....I plan to hit the ground running early next year.......It's been a long road......Since I bought the car, I've moved three times, the car's been in chassis shop prison twice, I've built a new shop and I've gotten heavily involved with my kids sports so it was moved down my priority list for a while and I'm just now getting back on track....... Aren't you the one that was trying to bust my balls last year?? I gave you my phone number and said we could meet anytime to discuss.....

Speaking of BS, how are my goodies coming along, Monte??

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I'll take you up on your bet if you do it on your Blown Nitro Injected Altered Wheelbase Lenco Tranny Street Car 65 Plymouth.......or even "Brown Sugar"........Hurry Up, Post the video, Collect your cash !!! Surely one of them must be ready to go by now, JUST ONE, you've had 10 years on the AWB Car, and 5 or 6 years on Brown Sugar......

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Hahahaha.....I sold the '65 because I couldn't headsup Class race it and to finish BS.......BS is getting very close .....I plan to hit the ground running early next year.......

Speaking of that, how are my goodies coming along, Monte??

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I'll take that as you are declining the bet......hey, perhaps you could take your engine stand on a road show and demonstrate for all the pro-stock dummies how they have such inefficient exhaust, and they have all been duped by the conspiracy of all the evil cam companies....oh, and I am sure Brown Sugar will set the world on fire now that it is in proper hands

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I'll take that as you are declining the bet......hey, perhaps you could take your engine stand on a road show and demonstrate for all the pro-stock dummies how they have such inefficient exhaust, and they have all been duped by the conspiracy of all the evil cam companies....oh, and I am sure Brown Sugar will set the world on fire now that it is in proper hands

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Wow...you've got some serious envy....what's your problem??? Tired of being Englehart's side kick????

I never said, or implied that any pro-stock guys have an inefficient exhaust.... It's not like they're going to swap cams to achieve a smoother idle........

You're reading way too much into what I've written........

Seriously, if you have a problem with me (like the last time you posted to me in a thread), shoot me a pm and I'll give you my number and address so we can handle this in person instead of in this thread...... or pay my gas, and I'll drive to your house with my test stand in tow so there aren't any misunderstandings over this keyboard.....I sent you a pm......

I don't see you stepping up to my bet or adding anything beneficial to this thread?????

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I'll take that as you are declining the bet......hey, perhaps you could take your engine stand on a road show and demonstrate for all the pro-stock dummies how they have such inefficient exhaust, and they have all been duped by the conspiracy of all the evil cam companies....oh, and I am sure Brown Sugar will set the world on fire now that it is in proper hands

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Wow...you've got some serious envy....what's your problem??? Tired of being Englehart's side kick????

I never said, or implied that any pro-stock guys have an inefficient exhaust.... It's not like they're going to swap cams to achieve a smoother idle........

You're reading way too much into what I've written........

Seriously, if you have a problem with me (like the last time you posted to me in a thread), shoot me a pm and I'll give you my number and address so we can handle this in person instead of in this thread...... or pay my gas, and I'll drive to your house with my test stand in tow so there aren't any misunderstandings over this keyboard.....I sent you a pm......

I don't see you stepping up to my bet or adding anything beneficial to this thread?????

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I'll take that as you are declining the bet......hey, perhaps you could take your engine stand on a road show and demonstrate for all the pro-stock dummies how they have such inefficient exhaust, and they have all been duped by the conspiracy of all the evil cam companies....oh, and I am sure Brown Sugar will set the world on fire now that it is in proper hands

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Wow...you've got some serious envy....what's your problem??? Tired of being Englehart's side kick????

I never said, or implied that any pro-stock guys have an inefficient exhaust.... It's not like they're going to swap cams to achieve a smoother idle........

You're reading way too much into what I've written........

Seriously, if you have a problem with me (like the last time you posted to me in a thread), shoot me a pm and I'll give you my number and address so we can handle this in person instead of in this thread...... or pay my gas, and I'll drive to your house with my test stand in tow so there aren't any misunderstandings over this keyboard.....I sent you a pm......

I don't see you stepping up to my bet or adding anything beneficial to this thread?????

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I think you really do believe that you are envied....

You stated that if you have a lopey idle, it is showing the inefficiencies of your exhaust system.....

Pay my gas so I can come see that Injected Nitro Lenco Tranny street monster....or throw them zoomies ya got on Brown Sugar.....I didn't see you taking me up on my bet.....

There was no reason for you to be so rude and obnoxious to Mike....plain and simple

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I said that because you always bring up my cars.....like it's really going to hurt me or something???

I didn't say it was "inefficient".......all I'm saying is that EXHAUST causes a "lopey" idle, and there's a way to prove it.....

Yes, I will take you up on that bet......I'll put shorty headers on my BS motor, but I can't do it today....I'm waiting on the parts to get back from the machine shop......and the intake from Monte....I'm shooting for mid to late January to fire it up......Are you Man enough to make the drive to Oklahoma???

He flat out called me a liar and BSer......so I stepped up, and he crawfished out....... that's all there is to it.....

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Not crawfishin out... but I dont agree with what you
said... I replied that you dont have a collector
on your zoomies to draft part of the next charge
so in that case you zoomie might idle BUT who runs
a zoomie on a N/A engine... NO ONE... you keep saying
its back pressure/reversion... I say no, that its
not drawing in the next charge... and you also said
that your engine will run with the blades closed and
you say its because its getting air from the zoomies...
ok now what kind of volume do you have in the zoomie
in relationship to the cyl volume... and you think
the air is running up that tube to supply the air to
keep it running(I think you might have a leak somewhere)

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That's where you're 100% wrong and that's what I offered to bet over to prove it to you........If you think I have a leak, I'll prove the "leak" is through the exhaust pipe.......and I'm so confident that I'm right, I'll wager any amount you want.......and you still think I'm dumb enough to not know if I have a vacuum leak or not.... Like I've said over and over, it's EASY money for you...... Teach me a lesson...

BTW, I've seen lots of people run zoomies in sling shot dragsters......with injectors and carburetors....and lots of mud trucks run them...and like Monte pointed out, cars with fender exit headers idle completely different than cars with longer, under chassis headers.......I'M NOT MAKING THIS UP, P-BODY!!!!!!!!!!!

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Not crawfishin out... but I dont agree with what you
said... I replied that you dont have a collector
on your zoomies to draft part of the next charge
so in that case you zoomie might idle BUT who runs
a zoomie on a N/A engine... NO ONE... you keep saying
its back pressure/reversion... I say no, that its
not drawing in the next charge... and you also said
that your engine will run with the blades closed and
you say its because its getting air from the zoomies...
ok now what kind of volume do you have in the zoomie
in relationship to the cyl volume... and you think
the air is running up that tube to supply the air to
keep it running(I think you might have a leak somewhere)

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That's where you're 100% wrong and that's what I offered to bet over to prove it to you........If you think I have a leak, I'll prove the "leak" is through the exhaust pipe.......and I'm so confident that I'm right, I'll wager any amount you want.......and you still think I'm dumb enough to not know if I have a vacuum leak or not.... Like I've said over and over, it's EASY money for you...... Teach me a lesson...

BTW, I've seen lots of people run zoomies in sling shot dragsters......with injectors and carburetors......and like Monte pointed out, cars with fender exit headers idle completely different that cars with longer, under chassis headers.......I'M NOT MAKING THIS UP, P-BODY!!!!!!!!!!!

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You can keep throwing your bet crap all you want...
I just dont bet... never have and still dont...
so lets just drop it right now... you have your
thoughts on it and I have mine... just that simple
OK

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lets see what the engine looks like in that car

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nothing special

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I'll take that as you are declining the bet......hey, perhaps you could take your engine stand on a road show and demonstrate for all the pro-stock dummies how they have such inefficient exhaust, and they have all been duped by the conspiracy of all the evil cam companies....oh, and I am sure Brown Sugar will set the world on fire now that it is in proper hands

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Wow...you've got some serious envy....what's your problem??? Tired of being Englehart's side kick????

I never said, or implied that any pro-stock guys have an inefficient exhaust.... It's not like they're going to swap cams to achieve a smoother idle........

You're reading way too much into what I've written........

Seriously, if you have a problem with me (like the last time you posted to me in a thread), shoot me a pm and I'll give you my number and address so we can handle this in person instead of in this thread...... or pay my gas, and I'll drive to your house with my test stand in tow so there aren't any misunderstandings over this keyboard.....I sent you a pm......

I don't see you stepping up to my bet or adding anything beneficial to this thread?????

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I think you really do believe that you are envied....

You stated that if you have a lopey idle, it is showing the inefficiencies of your exhaust system.....

Pay my gas so I can come see that Injected Nitro Lenco Tranny street monster....or throw them zoomies ya got on Brown Sugar.....I didn't see you taking me up on my bet.....

There was no reason for you to be so rude and obnoxious to Mike....plain and simple

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I said that because you always bring up my cars.....like it's really going to hurt me or something???

I didn't say it was "inefficient".......all I'm saying is that EXHAUST causes a "lopey" idle, and there's a way to prove it.....

Yes, I will take you up on that bet......I'll put shorty headers on my BS motor, but I can't do it today....I'm waiting on the parts to get back from the machine shop......and the intake from Monte....I'm shooting for mid to late January to fire it up......Are you Man enough to make the drive to Oklahoma???

He flat out called me a liar and BSer......so I stepped up, and he crawfished out....... that's all there is to it.....

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Your words exactly...."
More overlap in the new camshaft is just showing you how ineffecient your exhaust system is because now it's running on exhaust..."

And what is with this: "ALL I did was remove the long tube headers and install block hugger "shorty" headers and I couldn't get it to idle below 1,500RPM..."

You insist repeatedly that you could no way get this small block to idle below 1500 rpm with shorty headers....I have never heard of people complaining about this phenomena....are all blockhugger/shorty header users doomed to have a 1500 rpm minimum idle ??!!!

I have installed shorty headers on a 440 and I was able to adjust the idle down quite well you Nitwit

Perhaps it should be your mission to warn others not to purchase these evil 1500 minimum rpm shorty headers instead of just bestowing the small number of people on moparts with your superior knowledge

Your references to people being "pudding boys" and "crawfishing out"...did you make it out of the 5th grade ??

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You can keep throwing your bet crap all you want...
I just dont bet... never have and still dont...
so lets just drop it right now... you have your
thoughts on it and I have mine... just that simple
OK

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It's "crap" because you're not confident in your "thoughts"...... I'm talking facts, not thoughts........When we first started talking about this, I said all you have to do is try if for yourself and it went downhill from there......

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Your words exactly...."
More overlap in the new camshaft is just showing you how ineffecient your exhaust system is because now it's running on exhaust..."

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OK........you're right, I chose the wrong word..... but you're taking it out of context......I'm NOT saying that's it's inefficient at WOT, I'm saying that at idle it's not moving enough air so it's idling on exhaust.....

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And what is with this: "ALL I did was remove the long tube headers and install block hugger "shorty" headers and I couldn't get it to idle below 1,500RPM..."

You insist repeatedly that you could no way get this small block to idle below 1500 rpm with shorty headers....I have never heard of people complaining about this phenomena....are all blockhugger/shorty header users doomed to have a 1500 rpm minimum idle ??!!!

I have installed shorty headers on a 440 and I was able to adjust the idle down quite well you Nitwit

Perhaps it should be your mission to warn others not to purchase these evil 1500 minimum rpm shorty headers instead of just bestowing the small number of people on moparts with your superior knowledge

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This "phenomena" ONLY happens with the exhaust open at the collector and with a motor that has a good amount of overlap, which I'm sure isn't the case with the motor you installed shorty's on, NITWIT....... and just because you and P-body don't have the real life experiences that I have, doesn't mean it doesn't happen....(I've even seen a wild bear crap in the woods once.......)

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Your references to people being "pudding boys" and "crawfishing out"...did you make it out of the 5th grade ??

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"puddin' boys".....I was trying to be funny, but that was, obviously, over your head.....

"crawfishing out"......That's the truth.......P-body calls me a liar and BSer and says I'm not smart enough to know if I have a vacuum leak.... After I told him how to find out for himself (see post #7960714) he says it's my "opinion".......so then I make the bet because I was trying to avoid page after page of "theories" ......and I'll get is excuses and more of his theories.......

All this typing is goofy.......you guys are both too closed minded and too smart to learn anything ......I'd rather show you.....You don't believe me either and I'm enough of a Nitwit that I'll pay you to teach me a lesson and I don't see anyone stepping up..........step up......I can make the drive to Fred's shop, been there a few times....