Re: DODGE WONT START!! HELP!! TEY'RE ALL GONNA LAUGH AT ME
[Re: thedriver]
#15384
05/22/05 09:15 PM
05/22/05 09:15 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,481 Outside
thedriver
OP
pro stock
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OP
pro stock
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,481
Outside
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i just tried the car again with the batt at full charge, and it spun fer about 10 seconds before it just went dead... this is frustrating
1973 challenger Dana. 4 speed. Low deck.
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Re: DODGE WONT START!! HELP!! TEY'RE ALL GONNA LAUGH AT ME
[Re: thedriver]
#15385
05/22/05 09:19 PM
05/22/05 09:19 PM
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 96,649 On The Boat, On The Lake, Wa. ...
amxautox
Still Retired. Still Posting on Moparts. A Lot.
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Still Retired. Still Posting on Moparts. A Lot.
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 96,649
On The Boat, On The Lake, Wa. ...
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defintion - won't start = won't start but turns over,
or
doesn't turn over?
check the relay
Tom
"Everyone should believe in something; I believe I'll go fishing."
-Henry David Thoreau
Men and fish are alike. They both get into trouble when they open their mouths
author unknown
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Re: DODGE WONT START!! HELP!! TEY'RE ALL GONNA LAUGH AT ME
[Re: saccuda]
#15389
05/23/05 09:01 AM
05/23/05 09:01 AM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 15,478 the boonies
aarcuda
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 15,478
the boonies
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what does wont start mean? does it turn over and not run or does it not turn over. if it doesnt turn over, you probably have a bum battery
It's got a cop motor, a 440 cubic inch plant, it's got cop tires, cop suspensions, cop shocks. It's a model made before catalytic converters so it'll run good on regular gas.
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Re: DODGE WONT START!! HELP!! TEY'RE ALL GONNA LAUGH AT ME
[Re: aarcuda]
#15390
05/23/05 02:34 PM
05/23/05 02:34 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,481 Outside
thedriver
OP
pro stock
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OP
pro stock
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,481
Outside
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i have the battery charger out, this is the 3rd battt. i have tried in the car, all read full charge, yet, everytime i try to start the car, it simple feels like i dont have enuff juice to turn the car over...would 11.5:1 CR be a factor in this?? do i need a high powered starter or something?? i can spin the starter motor fer about 10 seconds until it starts to slow down and run outta juice, the car never used to have this problem...i did get it running last night fer about an hour....ran fine, but wouldn't start when i tried it again later on....if the alternator was pooched it would've died while running right?
1973 challenger Dana. 4 speed. Low deck.
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Re: DODGE WONT START!! HELP!! TEY'RE ALL GONNA LAUGH AT ME
[Re: thedriver]
#15391
05/23/05 02:39 PM
05/23/05 02:39 PM
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 96,649 On The Boat, On The Lake, Wa. ...
amxautox
Still Retired. Still Posting on Moparts. A Lot.
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Still Retired. Still Posting on Moparts. A Lot.
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 96,649
On The Boat, On The Lake, Wa. ...
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Check the grounds for corrosion including the starter to block. I've had a 13 1/2 to 1 engine and never had starter/cranking problems. Check the grounds and the starter.
Tom
"Everyone should believe in something; I believe I'll go fishing."
-Henry David Thoreau
Men and fish are alike. They both get into trouble when they open their mouths
author unknown
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Re: DODGE WONT START!! HELP!! TEY'RE ALL GONNA LAUGH AT ME
[Re: PlumCrazy73Dodge]
#15395
05/24/05 04:22 PM
05/24/05 04:22 PM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 15,478 the boonies
aarcuda
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 15,478
the boonies
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then its your starter or the battery cables arnt making good contact.
take the big cables off and clean then termoinals and where they connect to on the battery posts, starter lug and engine block. if you have a new battery and clean terminals and it still wont crank for longer than 10 sec (although thats a LONG time to crank a starter), either the motor is REALLY REALLY tight, or the starter is going south.
It's got a cop motor, a 440 cubic inch plant, it's got cop tires, cop suspensions, cop shocks. It's a model made before catalytic converters so it'll run good on regular gas.
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Re: DODGE WONT START!! HELP!! TEY'RE ALL GONNA LAUGH AT ME
[Re: PlumCrazy73Dodge]
#15396
05/24/05 04:35 PM
05/24/05 04:35 PM
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 2,112 New Jersey, US of A
PlumCrazy73Dodge
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 2,112
New Jersey, US of A
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woops, I thought it cranked over, but wasnt starting. Could be u need a high performance starter, I am not thqat good with the electronics.
73 plumcrazy challenger - 318/904, edelbrock performer 600cfm carb, performer intake and cam. Eddy Alum. Heads 3.91 locker, Doug's headers, accurate ltd. exhaust 73 Cuda - Triple Black 340 4 speed MIKE
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Re: DODGE WONT START!! HELP!! TEY'RE ALL GONNA LAUGH AT ME
[Re: MADMANMOPAR]
#15400
05/25/05 12:05 AM
05/25/05 12:05 AM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Sounds like the old toasted starter to me. Headers tend to get them. Go with the mini van starter. I run them on 15to1 engines with a crank trigger. Wish they had them in the 70s so we wouldn't have heard all the starter jokes. BAYOU
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Re: DODGE WONT START!! HELP!! TEY'RE ALL GONNA LAUGH AT ME
[Re: MADMANMOPAR]
#15401
05/25/05 12:30 AM
05/25/05 12:30 AM
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,033 Ontario
5537SG
super gas
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super gas
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,033
Ontario
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Quote:
START YOUR CAR AGAIN (IF YOU CAN) AND WHILE IT IS RUNNING, PULL OFF THE POSITIVE BATTERY CABLE.. SEE IF IT STAYS RUNNING.. IF IT DIES RIGHT AWAY, SOMETHING IS WRONG IN YOUR CHARGING CIRCUIT.. BAD ALTENATOR, REGULATOR, SHORTED WIRE, BAD GROUND, ECT.. THAT IS DRAINING YOUR BATTERY..
do not do that!!!
An automobile is a DC system. When the battery is disconnected it will go into an open circuit and the voltage will sky rocket. This causes a high voltage spike and can instantly destroy any component in the vehicle with an integrated circuit!! It may not be immediate, but it will show up. This includes your radio, tach, ignition module, clock etc... anything with a little circuit board.
many have gotten away with it, but that dont make it right! Its old school diagnostics at best.
A cheap voltmeter will at least tell you if the alternator is trying to charge the battery to the regulators set point. Any voltage increase with the car running as opposed to not running will show the alternator's attempt to charge the battery. It doesnt mean it can though. To find out for sure you need to find out how many amps the alt is putting out. Then determine where those amps are going. If all is normal or acceptable, then you must check starter draw with an amp probe. If the starter draw is excessive, now you must determine the cause. Is the motor seizing? is the timing way too far advanced? are the starter bushings worn out?? is there a belt driven component seizing making it difficult to turn over?
and of course, your battery will need to be capable of suppling the required amps to crank this engine properly, and the cables will also need to be up to the task.
as you can see, this requires some proper equipment to diagnose properly, and may be better left to a true professional. It might save you some money.
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Re: DODGE WONT START!! HELP!! TEY'RE ALL GONNA LAUGH AT ME
[Re: stumpy]
#15405
05/25/05 06:10 PM
05/25/05 06:10 PM
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,033 Ontario
5537SG
super gas
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super gas
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,033
Ontario
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Quote:
I'm sorry but we've been disconecting batteries for a lot of years and never blew a curcuit or gauge doing it. The new cars suffer from those syptoms but the older cars don't. You just pull the cable and the car will imediately die if the charging system is bad. You are disconeced for less than a 1/2 a second.
I know this used to be a widely used method, but that doesnt make it right. Any component with an IC (integrated circuit) is at risk. This means electronic voltage regulators, etc...
Just because its disconnected for a less than a second doesnt make it ok. If you stick your tongue in a 220V welder plug for less than half a second, does that mean you wont get a shock?
Also, the damage is often not immediately apparent, often times the component is damaged but still operates, and may do so for 6 months or 6 seconds, but its still damaged and will fail sooner than it would have originally. This goes for welding on a vehicle as well.
no disrespect intended.
Its an outdated method that should not be used on anything, especially when a voltmeter can be had for under 10 bucks. All you will know by disconnecting the battery with the car running, will be told to you by hooking up a voltmeter to the battery. Its probably even easier.
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Re: DODGE WONT START!! HELP!! TEY'RE ALL GONNA LAUGH AT ME
[Re: 5537SG]
#15408
05/25/05 06:32 PM
05/25/05 06:32 PM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 15,478 the boonies
aarcuda
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 15,478
the boonies
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there are some switching transistors inside the ecu but there aren't much else. Youre talking about new technology. we are talking old.
the voltage regualtor also is most likely old technology. and they are stout enough to handle a jump.
what kind of spike are you talking about? I dont see a great large spike occurring (nor can I think of where one would come from). The battery is not going to peak in voltage when you disconnect it.
Im an electrical engineer from missouri. show me how.
It's got a cop motor, a 440 cubic inch plant, it's got cop tires, cop suspensions, cop shocks. It's a model made before catalytic converters so it'll run good on regular gas.
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Re: DODGE WONT START!! HELP!! TEY'RE ALL GONNA LAUGH AT ME
[Re: aarcuda]
#15409
05/25/05 07:30 PM
05/25/05 07:30 PM
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,033 Ontario
5537SG
super gas
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super gas
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,033
Ontario
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well Im no engineer, but
its all about a circuit collapsing.
Why do some Ford truck starter solenoids need to be diode supressed?
Why do computers switch the ground and not the positive?
What makes points erode away?? its only low voltage passing though them isnt it. Why do they spark??
Why do A/C clutches have clamping diodes on them?? To prevent the spike.
What spike?? ??
Go put a voltmeter on your battery charger, without hooking it up to a battery, just connect the leads, then, turn it on to "boost" check the voltage now. Where does it go when you hook up the battery again??
theres your spike.
and tell me, what separates new technology from old technology?? a transistor is a transistor, lots are protected, but how many arent? and do you think the protected ones would be in the new stuff or the old stuff??
again, no disrespect implied, but nobody better be disconnecting a battery with the car running. I dont care how old it is.
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Re: DODGE WONT START!! HELP!! TEY'RE ALL GONNA LAUGH AT ME
[Re: 5537SG]
#15412
05/25/05 10:00 PM
05/25/05 10:00 PM
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,033 Ontario
5537SG
super gas
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super gas
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,033
Ontario
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let me put it this way. A battery charger works like an ignition coil. It uses electromagnetic induction.
Now, an alternator works how?
Electromagnetic induction. The field inside the rotor becomes a magnet when its energized. The poles of the rotor spinning generate an AC signal into the stator. Since we cant use an AC signal in a car, we use a rectifier to cancel out the part of the sine wave we dont require. We just take the top part of the sine wave, then in an automobile alternator, we take off at 3 points so a minimum of six diodes are required in a 3 phase alternator. (some imports and new stuff have as many as 6 phases)
anyway, with the battery disconnected, the AC signal has no where to go.
I wonder what the threshold voltage of the rectifier diodes are??? I can tell you its been exceeded.
Guess what, if your spike didnt kill anything, you may very well have just killed one third of the rectifier in the alternator. It will still charge, but only capable of one two thirds its original output.
You may have killed it and didnt even know it!
and that goes for old or new! anything with an alternator.
does that make sense?
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Re: DODGE WONT START!! HELP!! TEY'RE ALL GONNA LAUGH AT ME
[Re: stumpy]
#15414
05/25/05 10:58 PM
05/25/05 10:58 PM
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,033 Ontario
5537SG
super gas
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super gas
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,033
Ontario
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45 years of doing damage and you didnt even know it! you just dont get it. 18v full fielded, big deal! Thats still a DC circuit. Disconnect the battery now its no longer a DC circuit. This is a case of a little knowledge is dangerous! Glad you dont work on my vehicles, and hope you dont work on others. I could dig out my college stuff but it seems youre not interested in the facts, just 45 years of doing it the wrong way. Ive been doing this professionaly for 18 years and spent 4 of them working in an automotive electrical specialty shop. Ive spent many hours fixing problems caused from guys like you. Thanks for the $$$$ No need to call me professor. Just trying to explain how it works. I'm sorry I cant help your closed mindedness. Have a great day!
Last edited by 5537SG; 05/25/05 11:02 PM.
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Re: DODGE WONT START!! HELP!! TEY'RE ALL GONNA LAUGH AT ME
[Re: 5537SG]
#15415
05/25/05 11:22 PM
05/25/05 11:22 PM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
START YOUR CAR AGAIN (IF YOU CAN) AND WHILE IT IS RUNNING, PULL OFF THE POSITIVE BATTERY CABLE.. SEE IF IT STAYS RUNNING.. IF IT DIES RIGHT AWAY, SOMETHING IS WRONG IN YOUR CHARGING CIRCUIT.. BAD ALTENATOR, REGULATOR, SHORTED WIRE, BAD GROUND, ECT.. THAT IS DRAINING YOUR BATTERY..
not to any more but when my pos. cable came off on my bike it cooked every light bulb on it (about 17) the fuel pump and the horn. so i cost my self over 150 in parts cuz i didnt get the bolt out for the cable . after that ill never take the pos. cable off
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Re: DODGE WONT START!! HELP!! TEY'RE ALL GONNA LAUGH AT ME
[Re: thedriver]
#15416
05/25/05 11:28 PM
05/25/05 11:28 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 227 Scottsdale, AZ
Cudalord
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 227
Scottsdale, AZ
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Take the battery to Checker, Kragen, Autozone, whatever. Have it tested on the charger, not the hand-held tester. If it takes a full charge and shows as good, remove alternator and take to the same and have them do a bench (charging) test on it, not in the car!.... If it fails, you know what to do...If it passes, check your ground first. Then, check all cables for corrosion. If all is good, replace or check ballast resistor, then the voltage regulator. If you're still having problems, check your wiring. (Ebay sells wiring diagrams for cheap) Hope this helps...Been there.
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Re: DODGE WONT START!! HELP!! TEY'RE ALL GONNA LAUGH AT ME
[Re: Cudalord]
#15417
05/25/05 11:30 PM
05/25/05 11:30 PM
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 96,649 On The Boat, On The Lake, Wa. ...
amxautox
Still Retired. Still Posting on Moparts. A Lot.
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Still Retired. Still Posting on Moparts. A Lot.
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 96,649
On The Boat, On The Lake, Wa. ...
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Take the starter as long as you're taking the other stuff.
Tom
"Everyone should believe in something; I believe I'll go fishing."
-Henry David Thoreau
Men and fish are alike. They both get into trouble when they open their mouths
author unknown
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Re: DODGE WONT START!! HELP!! TEY'RE ALL GONNA LAUGH AT ME
#15418
05/25/05 11:43 PM
05/25/05 11:43 PM
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,033 Ontario
5537SG
super gas
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super gas
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,033
Ontario
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Quote:
Quote:
START YOUR CAR AGAIN (IF YOU CAN) AND WHILE IT IS RUNNING, PULL OFF THE POSITIVE BATTERY CABLE.. SEE IF IT STAYS RUNNING.. IF IT DIES RIGHT AWAY, SOMETHING IS WRONG IN YOUR CHARGING CIRCUIT.. BAD ALTENATOR, REGULATOR, SHORTED WIRE, BAD GROUND, ECT.. THAT IS DRAINING YOUR BATTERY..
not to any more but when my pos. cable came off on my bike it cooked every light bulb on it (about 17) the fuel pump and the horn. so i cost my self over 150 in parts cuz i didnt get the bolt out for the cable . after that ill never take the pos. cable off
disconnect it on a Chevette. It usually wrecks the ignition coil and the module all at the same time!
also, disconnect the battery while running on any car with an autometer monster tach. then rev it up a few times! Youll be ordering a new one!
theyre well aware of this.
just like most alternator rebuilders know all too well about battery disconnectors!
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Re: DODGE WONT START!! HELP!! TEY'RE ALL GONNA LAUGH AT ME
[Re: stumpy]
#15420
05/26/05 01:25 AM
05/26/05 01:25 AM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Place a volt meter across your Alt, disconnect the battery and see for yourself what the voltage jumps to. Often times it will exceed 400 volts. In automotive electrical school (MOPAR) This was the first thing taught to us dealer weanies. DO NOT UNHOOK A BATTERY WHILE THE ENGINE IS RUNNING! I'm glad to hear you have never had a problem. A better way to see if the Alt is working would be to place a screw driver against the rear center, if it sticks the unit is at least somewhat working.
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Re: DODGE WONT START!! HELP!! TEY'RE ALL GONNA LAUGH AT ME
#15421
05/26/05 09:54 AM
05/26/05 09:54 AM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 15,478 the boonies
aarcuda
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 15,478
the boonies
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Im still having a hard time seeing it. an ignition coil works because there is a winding around a metal core which induces a higher voltage on a secondary winding. the spark is created in the secondary coil when the field is broken. a high voltage is also created in the primary windings but that drains off through the condensor. read this article here. http://abbysenior.com/mechanics/ignition.htma straight piece of wire will not produce a high voltage by connecting and disconnecting a power source to it. you need a transformer to do that and then it depends on the primary to secondary coil winding relationship. It will create a magnetic field around it. are you saying the magnetic fiels from all the wires are inducing higher volatges on all the other wires? then it seems none of our cars should work and that when we shut them off we will have the situation you have described- i.e., collapsng a field and creating a damaging high voltage spike. im going to try the disconnecting the battery trick because I dont see the mechanics of why it would happen. 400v seems highly unlikely. Heres, my theory- the battery is used to start the car. the alternator charges the battery. when the car is running, the alternator is outputing 14v which goes straight to the battery through the ammeter. so with the car running, you have the 12v from the battery and the the 14v from the alternator connected together. the 14v from the alt being higher than the 12v in the battery, charges the battery. remove the battery and the alternator HAS NO IDEA THAT IT IS MISSING. It still is suppling 14v to the rest of the circuit which in turn keeps everything at the same potential. so why would it jump up in voltage???? The alternator puts out higher or lower current depending on the needs of the system. other cars may have some funky circuit that powers the voltage regulator off the battery alone and which shuts down the alternator when the battery is disconnected (thereby shutting down the car cause there is NO voltage source for the ignition after the alt turns off and the battery is disconnected ) but the 60's and 70' mopars arent one of them. and all transistors ARE NOT the same. some are high power, some are low power. high power transistors in the ignition system take a lot of brunt force. low power transistors in a microprocessor take very little to damage them (hence the expensive voltage regulation circuits in computers) but like I said, I'm gonna try it and see what the voltage goes to. unfortunatly, I need to wait until i replace my battery cause it died a while ago and I havent replaced it yet.
It's got a cop motor, a 440 cubic inch plant, it's got cop tires, cop suspensions, cop shocks. It's a model made before catalytic converters so it'll run good on regular gas.
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Re: DODGE WONT START!! HELP!! TEY'RE ALL GONNA LAUGH AT ME
[Re: aarcuda]
#15422
05/26/05 10:12 AM
05/26/05 10:12 AM
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,033 Ontario
5537SG
super gas
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super gas
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,033
Ontario
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Quote:
Im still having a hard time seeing it.
an ignition coil works because there is a winding around a metal core which induces a higher voltage on a secondary winding.Quote:
**** Here's your answer. Whats inside your alternator?? a winding (stator) around a metal core (rotor) which induces a higher voltage into the secondary winding (stator)
Some alternators have an "S" terminal on them. The S is the stator take off, they use this high voltage AC take off to heat windshields and various other applications in high end vehicles.
Disconnecting the battery opens the DC circuit and you now have a high voltage condition in the vehicle, not in the battery.
Quote:
but like I said, I'm gonna try it and see what the voltage goes to. unfortunatly, I need to wait until i replace my battery cause it died a while ago and I havent replaced it yet.
Dont do it. You risk some pricey components!
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Re: DODGE WONT START!! HELP!! TEY'RE ALL GONNA LAUGH AT ME
#15423
05/26/05 10:24 AM
05/26/05 10:24 AM
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,033 Ontario
5537SG
super gas
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super gas
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,033
Ontario
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Quote:
Place a volt meter across your Alt, disconnect the battery and see for yourself what the voltage jumps to. Often times it will exceed 400 volts. In automotive electrical school (MOPAR) This was the first thing taught to us dealer weanies. DO NOT UNHOOK A BATTERY WHILE THE ENGINE IS RUNNING! I'm glad to hear you have never had a problem. A better way to see if the Alt is working would be to place a screw driver against the rear center, if it sticks the unit is at least somewhat working.
There ya go, its the FIRST THING a technician should know!!
the screwdriver on the rear bearing is a good way to tell if your regulator is working, because it picks up the magnetic field from the rotor. If the field is energized it will be magnet. The alternator may still not work though, especially if some back yarder was previously diagnosing it by disconnecting the battery. Bye bye rectifier! This can be confirmed by performing a ripple pattern test on the diodes.
sincerly, THE PROFESSOR
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Re: DODGE WONT START!! HELP!! TEY'RE ALL GONNA LAUGH AT ME
[Re: 5537SG]
#15424
05/26/05 10:34 AM
05/26/05 10:34 AM
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,033 Ontario
5537SG
super gas
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super gas
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,033
Ontario
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oh and another thing concerning the open circuit voltage.... remember those underhood welder kits you can buy??? You can still find them sometimes in the back of 4 wheeler magazines, or probably even JC Whitney All they consist of is a Chrysler 100 amp alternator, and a solenoid that disconnects the battery then uses the alternator's high voltage to burn the electrode! It burns it at alot higher voltage than 18V!!! You regulate the power by regulating the rpm of the engine. Thats all they are. They used the Chryco ones because they were the only alternators that would survive in that application. You can weld with your own alternator on your own car if you want. Go outside, and disconnect the alternator while the field is energized, then hook up a stinger to your alternators output terminal. you can now burn rod all day or until your alterenator dies. (it wont be long) unless you have an old Chyrco 100 amper. They were overkill! Sincerley Darrel Waltrip, oops, I mean the PROFESSOR!
Last edited by 5537SG; 05/26/05 10:35 AM.
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Re: DODGE WONT START!! HELP!! TEY'RE ALL GONNA LAUGH AT ME
[Re: aarcuda]
#15426
05/26/05 11:40 AM
05/26/05 11:40 AM
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 96,649 On The Boat, On The Lake, Wa. ...
amxautox
Still Retired. Still Posting on Moparts. A Lot.
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Still Retired. Still Posting on Moparts. A Lot.
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 96,649
On The Boat, On The Lake, Wa. ...
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What truck? Year and brand? I've done it before and my dad before me. The regulator controls the generator or altenator, and nobody I know have ever had a problem. We use to do it all the time to get another car started. Drive one car there, leave it running, take the battery out and put it in the second car, and drive them both home. When in high school we didn't always have jumper cables and didn't always have room to push start.[altho I don't remember why not], but we did have tools most of the time. None of us ever had problems on any of the cars for the many years we owned them.
And sometimes the engine wouldn't run unless the batt cables were held together and tied for the trip back.
Tom
"Everyone should believe in something; I believe I'll go fishing."
-Henry David Thoreau
Men and fish are alike. They both get into trouble when they open their mouths
author unknown
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Re: DODGE WONT START!! HELP!! TEY'RE ALL GONNA LAUGH AT ME
[Re: amxautox]
#15427
05/26/05 11:47 AM
05/26/05 11:47 AM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 15,478 the boonies
aarcuda
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 15,478
the boonies
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its a 79 plymouth trailduster. a classic convertable (if youre strong enough)
its got the same electronics as any 70's mopar plus more smog stuff (buts thats all disconnected now)
It's got a cop motor, a 440 cubic inch plant, it's got cop tires, cop suspensions, cop shocks. It's a model made before catalytic converters so it'll run good on regular gas.
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Re: DODGE WONT START!! HELP!! TEY'RE ALL GONNA LAUGH AT ME
[Re: aarcuda]
#15428
05/26/05 11:50 AM
05/26/05 11:50 AM
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 96,649 On The Boat, On The Lake, Wa. ...
amxautox
Still Retired. Still Posting on Moparts. A Lot.
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Still Retired. Still Posting on Moparts. A Lot.
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 96,649
On The Boat, On The Lake, Wa. ...
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Mine's a '76 Ramcharger. Sits a lot too. I use it mostly for dragging the bassboat up and down a couple dirt and gravel launches. And used it for dragging the trees out of the back 2 and the steep side hill when I opened it up for more pasture for the horse. It's road worthy again now. Still drives great on the original engine. Tell me about that steel top, took it off a few times by myself on my back! Had a setup of 2x4s to get it done.
Tom
"Everyone should believe in something; I believe I'll go fishing."
-Henry David Thoreau
Men and fish are alike. They both get into trouble when they open their mouths
author unknown
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Re: DODGE WONT START!! HELP!! TEY'RE ALL GONNA LAUGH AT ME
[Re: aarcuda]
#15430
05/26/05 12:34 PM
05/26/05 12:34 PM
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,033 Ontario
5537SG
super gas
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super gas
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,033
Ontario
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Quote:
ARRRGGG! What you keep ignoring is that you are NOT DISCONNECTING the alternator field by disconnecting the battery!!! all youre doing is disconnecting the BATTERY. The field wires are still hooked up to the regulator.
the alternator PRODUCES voltage. The coil is a transformer that takes voltage and converts it. Disconnecting the battery should have absolutely no effect on the field wires on the alternator.
Im still gonna try it. heck, ive done it plenty of times before (just like stumpy says he has) and I never saw anything fry. So, now I'll put a voltmeter on my alternator and disconnect the battery. Im not afraid. I dont drive my truck until it snows anyways.
Im not ignoring anything. The whole part of it IS TO LEAVE THE FIELD ENERGIZED while the battery is disconnected! Then you have a transformer. By disconnecting the battery with the car running, the alternator still has the field energized!! Thus generates voltage that has nowhere to go!!!!! What do we know about electricity?? It takes the easiest way out!! Usually across a semi conductor of some type. The voltage will rise and rise, until it finds an escape.
If you disconnect the battery, the rest of electricaal system is subjected to this high voltage. If you just disconnect the alternator output terminal, you just subject the alternator to this high voltage.
Where do you think the power generated by the alternator goes when the field is still energized and the battery is disconnected??????????????
I'll give you a hint, you can use it to weld with!
I cant believe you guys think this is ok. A little knowledge is totally dangerous!!
just cause you got away with it before doesnt make it ok. Like I said earlier, the damage may not be immediately apparent!!
You guys really need to be educated properly in auto repair. Phone any local alternator rebuild shop and tell them the alternator you bought from them doesnt work because you disconnected the battery and the car stalled. Dont phone auto zone or whomever , phone a real rebuilder with electrical knowledge!
This is what separates real technicians from back yarders. A real tech knows the facts. I suggest you folks educate yourselves on this. This is why auto makers made it more difficult for back yarders that know eveything to work on thier products.Too many people with too little knowledge!
If you go try this on your Ramcharger, I hope you have a nice expensive stereo in there, and make sure you rev it up good and hard!
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Re: DODGE WONT START!! HELP!! TEY'RE ALL GONNA LAUGH AT ME
[Re: stumpy]
#15431
05/26/05 12:45 PM
05/26/05 12:45 PM
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,033 Ontario
5537SG
super gas
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super gas
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,033
Ontario
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Quote:
There is no way in Hades a car alternator will put out 400v it's physically impossible. As for spikes every time you turn on the headlights, the heater, the wipers, or the radio you cause a momentary spike and nothing blows. That is one of the reasons the main feed is a fusible link because it will outlast these spikes where a fuse won't. The welders are putting out high amperage and that is what welds not voltage. Put the books down and grab a wrench and get real world experience.
put down the greasy monkey wrench and educate yourself on laws of electricity. An alternator is very capable of producing 400V. You just dont know how an alternator works, and its quite obvious.
If its high amperage that welds, why arent your battery posts welding themselves together right now???? Theres plenty of amperage, and low voltage for you!! The voltage starts the spark, and the amperage keeps it going. Without the high voltage, theres no spark. Learn how welders work!
A fusible link and fuse will resist a SPIKE, not a SURGE. A fuse works off amperage not voltage!! How many fusible links in a new Ram?? theyre all Maxi fuses!
Go drag your feet across a carpet and get a static shock, WHy does the spark jump across 1/4 gap??? Theres very very little amperage, but high voltage, because it gets stored in the person dragging their feet.
Get with it!! your totally wrong.
Go change a leaf spring, thats more up your alley! or help yourself out, and read a book, then go apply it in the field. I been there, and do that!!
Last edited by 5537SG; 05/26/05 12:56 PM.
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Re: DODGE WONT START!! HELP!! TEY'RE ALL GONNA LAUGH AT ME
[Re: stumpy]
#15433
05/26/05 01:40 PM
05/26/05 01:40 PM
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,033 Ontario
5537SG
super gas
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super gas
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,033
Ontario
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Quote:
My friend I have been a dealer mechanic since 1961 so I think I do have a small bit of on the job experience. What do you do for a living?
I'm a professional auto mechanic since 1988 I graduated with a 4.0 gpa and achieved 93% on the Ontario trade exam after completing the required time in school and a 9000 hour apprenticeship program. I have taken all the ASE tests and received master tech status, but since ASE isnt worth anything here, its just a way to waste money on credentials that arent recognized here
The voltage regulator maintains the steady output. It will only allow what is needed to go to the system.
The voltage regulator turns the field off and on to reach a happy medium in the electrical system. It detects this by monitoring the system voltage via the sense terminal.
Removing the battery does not disable the regulator. Nobody said it disables the regulator. The regulator sees the battery voltage as low and keeps the field energized. Just like the battery was low, it keeps the field energized because its trying to reach its set point of approximately 13.5-14.2 volts
The reason you can weld with the AMPERAGE produced is that the draw causes the regulator the allow current to flow as drawn on up to the max amperage of the alternator.
I cant begin with whats wrong with this statement. First of all the regulator is just a switch with a zener diode in it. It senses the voltage and either turns the alternator field on or off. Its not magic. The alternators ability to supply enough amperage to weld with comes from the size of its windings and ability to dissipate heat. These traits made the Chryco 100amp a good choice
Every thing you have brought up requires the regulator the be stuck wide open and that doesn't happen when you pull the battery cable.
What voltage does the regulator see when the battery is not hooked up?? Disconnect your battery and check to see if the field stays energized. It will
What happens is exactly the oppisite the regulator senses the lower draw and lowers the output to match. Regulators dont sense draw, they sense voltage. and they tell the alternator what to do, turn on or off. When the voltage reaches the setpoint determined by the zener diode, it shuts off the alternator field.
BTW if voltage welds why aren't your battery cables being welded now.
Because like I said earlier, voltage creates the spark, not amperage, and batteries are only 12V, but they are capable of over 800 amps!! thats why they arent welding together right now. How is it your ignition coil can jump the spark plug gap and your battery cant??
The reason is that there isn't a high amp draw at the battery. Put your greasy cresent wrench across the battery terminals and see how low the amp draw is!!
Also spike and surge are interchangeable terms.
A spike refers to a voltage spike ( i.e sudden rise) in voltage! a surge is referred to as a sudden rise in current flow(i.e. the stuff that causes blackouts when everyone has their air conditioners on. )
Spend some more time reading you'll get it right eventually. The scary part is I've got this right, and I havent been doing it 45 years. This is basic auto repair knowlege. I dont know what credentials you have, but getting credit with snap on doesnt make you a technician.
You are going off the deep end on this with absolutely no proof.
The proof is out there. Ever change an ECM ?? Why does it come in an anti-static bag?? Why should you ground yourself before touching one? Why do the electronics workers wear anti static suits??? Its because of static shocks!! static shocks dont carry amperage, but they are capable of high voltage! just like your alternator. These people know the failures may or may not be immediate, but are aware of the dangers if they are.
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Re: DODGE WONT START!! HELP!! TEY'RE ALL GONNA LAUGH AT ME
[Re: stumpy]
#15435
05/26/05 01:57 PM
05/26/05 01:57 PM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 15,478 the boonies
aarcuda
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 15,478
the boonies
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I welded a screwdriver between the + side of a battery and the fender when I shorted it out once by accident. but thats neither here nor there.
lik stumpy said and as I have been saying, the voltage regulator (and hence the alternator field) is not disconnected when the battery is removed- so no jump in voltage.
the most I'll give you is that there is an overshoot of voltage when the battery is unplugged and replugged. voltage of maybe a few volts. But no way do I see damage occurring.
what about using jumper cables??? here you attach a battery to a car with a dead battery (dead battery with no voltage is close to no battery at all) and then DISCONNECT it after it starts. so people should be blowing all there electronics using jumper cables. thanks but no thanks.
same with using a big battery charger to start a dead car. Did it lots of times, never any damage. never say 400v either- ever- unless the car hit a power line.
It's got a cop motor, a 440 cubic inch plant, it's got cop tires, cop suspensions, cop shocks. It's a model made before catalytic converters so it'll run good on regular gas.
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Re: DODGE WONT START!! HELP!! TEY'RE ALL GONNA LAUGH AT ME
[Re: stumpy]
#15436
05/26/05 02:07 PM
05/26/05 02:07 PM
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,033 Ontario
5537SG
super gas
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super gas
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,033
Ontario
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Quote:
There you go again. We are talking about old cars not new computer cars. Make up your mind. And my credenals consist of a Chrysler master mecahnics certificate that I earned before you were old enough to go to school. And it is recognized here. The end!
Here I am again, tell me whats different about a new car and an old car??? tell me! Id like to know! Is there a magical mystery date somewhere?
youre talking electrical, and Im talking electronic! they merged around the time of "transistorized ignition, and electronic voltaage regulators, and the transistor radio" These are all after you got your master chryco tech status!
an IC (integrated circuit) is an IC !!! which if you read back to my first post on this, youll see that I mentioned any IC was at risk by using these dinosaur methods of diagnostics.
maybe you should renew your credentials, they seem expired to me. afterall, thats before calculators had been invented, and man landed on the moon. So much more has since been learned! I encourage you to explore it.
and the facts are whats recognized here!
have a great day!
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Re: DODGE WONT START!! HELP!! TEY'RE ALL GONNA LAUGH AT ME
[Re: 5537SG]
#15438
05/26/05 02:22 PM
05/26/05 02:22 PM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 15,478 the boonies
aarcuda
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 15,478
the boonies
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An IC is not an IC. I work electronics EVERY DAY!!! I am an electrical engineer (since 1985). Ived worked at Hughes Aircraft in Radar Enngineering for 15 years and currently work a space electronics company as a reliability engineer. All I do is parts.
IC's come in so many different flavors it's ridiculous. they have different voltage requirements and have different tolerances to overvoltage. some work at 3.3v and will die at 7v. others work at 12v and will die at 30v. its all in what the technology is. (is it 1 micron, 2 micron or THE OLD STUFF).
what kind of metallization is it? what kind of circuit is it? Protection diodes? current limiting resistors??
there are so many variables.
the transistors in the electronic ignition can probably handle 60v. an ECU in a newer car is much less because as the die gets smaller, less voltage and/or current is required to get THOSE transistors to switch. They are MUCH more sensitive.
there are parts made to handle high power and those that arent. My job requires me to derate parts to mil standards and apply worst case conditions to see if they will survive in space. They are all different.
a transistor is NOT just a transistor.
Technology HAS changed. Our cars are extremely more tolerant to voltage flucuation and EMI than newer cars. They get screwed up so easily by power surges and or electrical noise.
I can run solid core spark plug wires on my car and truck because the electronics are not susceptibly to the electrical noise they produce yet it i drive close enough to a brand new caddy, I could probably blow its computer (exageration but close)
I am scheduled to run ANOTHER EMI test on electronics for the Joint Strike Fighter next month. Ive done this stuff for a long time.
those are my credentials and I am agreeing with most of what stumpy says.
you are talking NEW cars (95 and up). we are talking old cars.
It's got a cop motor, a 440 cubic inch plant, it's got cop tires, cop suspensions, cop shocks. It's a model made before catalytic converters so it'll run good on regular gas.
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Re: DODGE WONT START!! HELP!! TEY'RE ALL GONNA LAUGH AT ME
[Re: aarcuda]
#15439
05/26/05 02:24 PM
05/26/05 02:24 PM
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,033 Ontario
5537SG
super gas
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super gas
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,033
Ontario
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Quote:
I welded a screwdriver between the + side of a battery and the fender when I shorted it out once by accident. but thats neither here nor there.
lik stumpy said and as I have been saying, the voltage regulator (and hence the alternator field) is not disconnected when the battery is removed- so no jump in voltage.
The regulator still being connected and operational is what causes the field to remain energized, this causes the alternator to keep working, building up a charge with nowhere to go since the battery is no longer in the system
the most I'll give you is that there is an overshoot of voltage when the battery is unplugged and replugged. voltage of maybe a few volts. But no way do I see damage occurring.
thats just a surge, thats not the issue
what about using jumper cables??? here you attach a battery to a car with a dead battery (dead battery with no voltage is close to no battery at all) and then DISCONNECT it after it starts.
thats a serious mistake but only determental to the car with the dead battery. Its not relevant to this arguement. It causes the alternator to work full tilt til the battery is charged. An alternator is designed to keep a battery charged, not charge up a dead one. The result will often be a burnt rectifier. Sometimes they whistle. Most people get away with it though.
so people should be blowing all there electronics using jumper cables. thanks but no thanks.
there is a possibility but minimal. Best not to do so.
same with using a big battery charger to start a dead car. Did it lots of times, never any damage.
no damage that youve seen immediatley. Seen it many times myself, and know of other knowledgeable mechanics that have. Becoming a bigger issue these days with body shops running down batteries then boosting them
never say 400v either- ever- unless the car hit a power line.
Try it and tell me never. 400 is a tad high, but its possible. 200+ is more common! try it, keep your field energized, then disconnect the output wire on your alternator. Check the alternator output with a voltmeter. rev it up. Tell me how your readings wont cause troubles!! Just like I said earlier, try it with your battery charger. It works the same way!
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Re: DODGE WONT START!! HELP!! TEY'RE ALL GONNA LAUGH AT ME
[Re: aarcuda]
#15441
05/26/05 02:30 PM
05/26/05 02:30 PM
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,033 Ontario
5537SG
super gas
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super gas
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,033
Ontario
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ok so youre familiar with the concerns of electrostatic discharge then, good. you know theres a possibility of damage, and youre familiar with EMI and such, great. now you need to know what generates the power that causes them. An IC is an IC, youre just talking about specifics of certain ones. They all consist of delicate electronic parts! Maybe you can ask some of your co employees, or can research this a little better. I assure you the point I make is true. I gotta run out, I dont have time to continue this right now, but I will later.
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Re: DODGE WONT START!! HELP!! TEY'RE ALL GONNA LAUGH AT ME
[Re: stumpy]
#15444
05/26/05 02:42 PM
05/26/05 02:42 PM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 15,478 the boonies
aarcuda
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 15,478
the boonies
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im still going to try it.
It's got a cop motor, a 440 cubic inch plant, it's got cop tires, cop suspensions, cop shocks. It's a model made before catalytic converters so it'll run good on regular gas.
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Re: DODGE WONT START!! HELP!! TEY'RE ALL GONNA LAUGH AT ME
[Re: stumpy]
#15447
05/26/05 02:57 PM
05/26/05 02:57 PM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 15,478 the boonies
aarcuda
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 15,478
the boonies
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I found this on a website ( http://www.marine-electronics.net/techarticle/battery_faq/b_faq.htm ) it says under MYTHS about batteries: "10.6. Test the alternator by disconnecting the battery with the engine running. A battery as like a voltage stabilizer or filter to the pulsating DC produced by the charging system. Disconnecting a battery while the engine is running can destroy sensitive electronic components, for example, emission computer, audio system, cell phone, alarm system, etc., or even the charging system itself. These damages can occur because the voltage can rise to 40 volts or more. In the 1970s, removing a battery terminal was an accepted practice to test charging systems of that era. That is not the case today. Just say NO if anyone suggests this." So like I said, old vs new. The alternator puts out a rectified DC signal. That means it was AC but the diodes rectified into DC. there is still a small amount of ripple on the output. with the battery in place, the battery acts like a shock absorber which mellows the ripple out. This ripple can ruin electronics in NEW vehicles. Old stuff like ours aren't affected because the technology is more resistant to the ripple.
It's got a cop motor, a 440 cubic inch plant, it's got cop tires, cop suspensions, cop shocks. It's a model made before catalytic converters so it'll run good on regular gas.
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Re: DODGE WONT START!! HELP!! TEY'RE ALL GONNA LAUGH AT ME
[Re: aarcuda]
#15452
05/26/05 03:56 PM
05/26/05 03:56 PM
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,033 Ontario
5537SG
super gas
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super gas
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,033
Ontario
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Quote:
I found this on a website ( http://www.marine-electronics.net/techarticle/battery_faq/b_faq.htm )
it says under MYTHS about batteries: "10.6. Test the alternator by disconnecting the battery with the engine running.
A battery as like a voltage stabilizer or filter to the pulsating DC produced by the charging system. Disconnecting a battery while the engine is running can destroy sensitive electronic components, for example, emission computer, audio system, cell phone, alarm system, etc., or even the charging system itself. These damages can occur because the voltage can rise to 40 volts or more. In the 1970s, removing a battery terminal was an accepted practice to test charging systems of that era. That is not the case today. Just say NO if anyone suggests this."
So like I said, old vs new. The alternator puts out a rectified DC signal. That means it was AC but the diodes rectified into DC. there is still a small amount of ripple on the output. with the battery in place, the battery acts like a shock absorber which mellows the ripple out. This ripple can ruin electronics in NEW vehicles. Old stuff like ours aren't affected because the technology is more resistant to the ripple.
Ok this shows it fine. notice it says 40 volts or MORE!!!!! not peak at 18 or 40!
now all you have to do is realize that anything with electronics, and this means your old car with electronic ignition, electronic tachometer, electronic voltage regulator are succeptible to the damage caused by the prehistoric diagnostic method. This also includes any stereo thats been installed, and many many other possibilities.
If you look at a chrysler regulator, does it not say right on it "ELECTRONIC VOLTAGE REGULATOR"???? why is it so hard to accept that it has sensitive components in it??
This also mentions it can damage the alternator as well!!!
so lets see, how old are these cars that dont have alternators?? 62 ish???? wow thats old!! Older than any car I own, so a person shouldnt do this on anything newer than 62 ish , how about that.
when did Chyrco come out with electronic ignition? I think it was 72?? so this includes anything newer than 72, plus anybody that has upgraded to electronic ignition.
when did Chyrco come out with the electronic voltage regulator?? Im not sure on this one, around 70? hmmm but also. most replacement regulators for the pre electronic ones are actually electronic ones inside the old mechanical style casing!!
so its plain to see that anything new enough to have an alternator, or ELECTRONICS, it is NOT ADVISEABLE TO DISCONNECT THE BATTERY WITH THE ENGINE RUNNING!!!
now check back to my original post. tell me its a good idea to remove the battery cable! the arcticle above states just to say NO to this suggestion!, and thats from a boat site!
oh and stumpy, what type of voltmeter are you using?? is it an analog type or a DVOM. An analog type will actually pass the current across a shunt and read closed circuit voltage. A DVOM will read the actual voltage. I suspect youre using some type with a shunt. They are not all the same.
Last edited by 5537SG; 05/26/05 04:09 PM.
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Re: DODGE WONT START!! HELP!! TEY'RE ALL GONNA LAUGH AT ME
[Re: 5537SG]
#15455
05/26/05 04:22 PM
05/26/05 04:22 PM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 15,478 the boonies
aarcuda
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 15,478
the boonies
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Ok, youre right. Thank you! I don't what I was thinking. but I'm still gonna try it!! and I'll let you all know what the voltage went to and I'll list everything that fries in the process.
It's got a cop motor, a 440 cubic inch plant, it's got cop tires, cop suspensions, cop shocks. It's a model made before catalytic converters so it'll run good on regular gas.
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Re: DODGE WONT START!! HELP!! TEY'RE ALL GONNA LAUGH AT ME
[Re: aarcuda]
#15457
05/26/05 04:29 PM
05/26/05 04:29 PM
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,033 Ontario
5537SG
super gas
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super gas
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,033
Ontario
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save yourself some parts, and just disconnect the output terminal on the alternator. put your positive lead of a dvom on it. and place the negative one on the engine block. set it to auto range, VDC and light her up! for best results, increase the rpm some! worst case scenario is you will damage the rectifier in your alternator. Check the ripple pattern before and after this test. This way you will see if you damaged one or more phases of the alternator. Cause otherwise you may believe for the next 20 years that you wernt responsible for the headlights dimming when at idle or the blower fan slowing down, and they never used to. Have fun!
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Re: DODGE WONT START!! HELP!! TEY'RE ALL GONNA LAUGH AT ME
[Re: 5537SG]
#15460
05/26/05 04:50 PM
05/26/05 04:50 PM
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 898 Georgia
72440CUDA
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 898
Georgia
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Re: DODGE WONT START!! HELP!! TEY'RE ALL GONNA LAUGH AT ME
[Re: stumpy]
#15462
05/26/05 04:59 PM
05/26/05 04:59 PM
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,033 Ontario
5537SG
super gas
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super gas
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,033
Ontario
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Quote:
No, actually correct facts are what is accepted and so far you have spouted all kinds of FACTS but you still haven't proven your point, cause and affect. There is a very large difference between the new ICs and the original electronics. The early stuff was a lot sturdier and less affected by surges or spikes, or that ever you want to call it,than the stuff they use today mainly because it was simple. If it wasn't for dinosaur methods of testing your parents would have been walking every where they went because us dinosaurs did quite well with or testing methods long before you learned your way and long after. I can completely dismantle my car into it's smallest parts and rebuild it without opening a book or resorting to overpriced diagnostics machines can you?
You can do it all without a book huh?? Well so can I, but that dont make it the right way. I bet you can torque your heads without a wrench. Sure you might get them close, but are they right??? It will probably work ok in most cases, but how many will it not?? Do it right! I suppose you can remember all the float levels for every carb you worked on, but as long as its close it should be ok huh?? float level actually affects mixture, but, hey, youre close, good enough! No need to look up that spec. It might only run richer and tend to wash down the cylinder walls a tad, or just dilute the oil some, its ok, its close!
these dinosaur tactics are just what they are. Dinosaur, and we know what happened to them.
The better technician uses a book, cause he realizes he doesnt know everything, and is capable of researching the correct answer!
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Re: DODGE WONT START!! HELP!! TEY'RE ALL GONNA LAUGH AT ME
[Re: stumpy]
#15463
05/26/05 05:02 PM
05/26/05 05:02 PM
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,033 Ontario
5537SG
super gas
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super gas
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,033
Ontario
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Quote:
are these the facts youre bringing to the table??
I think we need an icon of a big guy beating a dead dinosaur!
find somewhere in the last 100 years where it says to disconnect the battery with the engine running, and show it to us. then laugh, til then, we laugh at you.
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Re: DODGE WONT START!! HELP!! TEY'RE ALL GONNA LAUGH AT ME
[Re: 5537SG]
#15464
05/26/05 05:23 PM
05/26/05 05:23 PM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 15,478 the boonies
aarcuda
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 15,478
the boonies
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it says right in the article that I posted that it was an accepted method back in the 70's. is that what you wanted to see? if so, here it is again for you: "In the 1970s, removing a battery terminal was an accepted practice to test charging systems of that era. That is not the case today. " and why isn't it the case today?? well becuase today we have "sensitive electronic components, for example, emission computer, audio system, cell phone, alarm system, etc., or even the charging system itself." You see, back in the day, the "pulsating DC produced by the charging system" was not bad enough to damage the heavy duty electronics they used back then. if you want to think it does, I will let you believe that. I don't. Actually, I think you're enjoy trying to rile someone up. I'm not riled though. we were trying to edumacate but I see you can't be swayed. You have actually made me smile quite a bit with your argument. I dont buy it one bit. Keep it up. Thats what we live for!!!
It's got a cop motor, a 440 cubic inch plant, it's got cop tires, cop suspensions, cop shocks. It's a model made before catalytic converters so it'll run good on regular gas.
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Re: DODGE WONT START!! HELP!! TEY'RE ALL GONNA LAUGH AT ME
[Re: romanucci]
#15465
05/26/05 05:32 PM
05/26/05 05:32 PM
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,864 Butler, PA
romanucci
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,864
Butler, PA
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Quote:
My vote is for the Starter. There are many failure modes for starters, and I've experienced the one you are describing. I don't think you need a more powerful replacement, just one that cranks without seizing itself!
Fascinating Thread! FULL of great info regarding batteries and charging systems.
I still think it's the starter.
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Re: DODGE WONT START!! HELP!! TEY'RE ALL GONNA LAUGH AT ME
[Re: aarcuda]
#15468
05/26/05 05:39 PM
05/26/05 05:39 PM
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,033 Ontario
5537SG
super gas
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super gas
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,033
Ontario
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Quote:
it says right in the article that I posted that it was an accepted method back in the 70's. is that what you wanted to see?
if so, here it is again for you:
"In the 1970s, removing a battery terminal was an accepted practice to test charging systems of that era. That is not the case today. "
and why isn't it the case today?? well becuase today we have "sensitive electronic components, for example, emission computer, audio system, cell phone, alarm system, etc., or even the charging system itself."
You see, back in the day, the "pulsating DC produced by the charging system" was not bad enough to damage the heavy duty electronics they used back then.
if you want to think it does, I will let you believe that. I don't.
Actually, I think you're enjoy trying to rile someone up. I'm not riled though. we were trying to edumacate but I see you can't be swayed. You have actually made me smile quite a bit with your argument. I dont buy it one bit. Keep it up. Thats what we live for!!!
riling somebody up is not my goal. Helping them make the correct diagnostic moves is.
Youre the engineer, edumacate me what cars have these indestrucible electronics? what models did they come in? was there a mid year introduction??? is this some secret info that you have??? its not for my consumption???
the arcticle clearly says, it was an accepted METHOD in the 70's, it does not say anything about 70's cars!!!! Its an old school METHOD!!!!
LSD was accepted in the 70's and so was free love. That doesnt make the consequences irrelevant. No immediate damage from either of those too.
well, EDUCATE Me!! when did the miracle electronics come into production and what separates them from the rest of the world??
Give me a date, what separates new cars from old cars??? ANY CAR WITH ELECTRONICS IS SUCCEPTIBLE!
now true, older stuff was usually built out of better materials, but that does not mean they are fail safe!!!!
If anyone needs to be EDUCATED its you fellas. youre way way way off. I suggest postponing your out of date practices til you can be further updated. Do everyone a favor, get the facts, then speak your turn.
and educate me how the arcticle clearly states that damage to the charging system itself is possible. DID ONLY NEW CARS COME WITH ALTERNATORS????? I said already, since 62 ish!! Nobody should disconnect a battery with the car running IF IT HAS AN ALTERNATOR!!!
Hmm whats in a diode???? tell me mr engineer!, are diodes not commonly found on ICs??
how is it you still dont believe me? Do older cars use miracle rectifiers(diodes) that are immune to this ??
Last edited by 5537SG; 05/26/05 05:55 PM.
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Re: DODGE WONT START!! HELP!! TEY'RE ALL GONNA LAUGH AT ME
[Re: stumpy]
#15470
05/26/05 05:53 PM
05/26/05 05:53 PM
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,033 Ontario
5537SG
super gas
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super gas
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,033
Ontario
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Quote:
Stumpy, I see you brought your facts to the table again. Youre in over your head now, the dead horse is not a life preserver.
all due respect.
Have a great day fellas!
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Re: DODGE WONT START!! HELP!! TEY'RE ALL GONNA LAUGH AT ME
[Re: stumpy]
#15472
05/26/05 06:02 PM
05/26/05 06:02 PM
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,033 Ontario
5537SG
super gas
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super gas
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,033
Ontario
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Quote:
I see no need in repeating what has already been posted for you but you just don't seem to understand. THEDRIVER I am sorry for helping to steal your post. I hope you get the car fixed.
Well if he uses proper practices, he may be able to diagnose it. If I was there, with a snap on AVR Id diagnose it properly in under 60 seconds, but I'm not there. In order to diagnose it properly he needs a minimum of a carbon pile and a voltmeter.
and stumpy, repeating whats been said wont save your arguement, i've shown it dont hold water.
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Re: DODGE WONT START!! HELP!! TEY'RE ALL GONNA LAUGH AT ME
[Re: 5537SG]
#15474
05/26/05 06:07 PM
05/26/05 06:07 PM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 15,478 the boonies
aarcuda
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 15,478
the boonies
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newer cars (Not all cars but many built early 90's and up) started using sense circuits in the ecm. these newer ecms, used a lot of low voltage sensor circuits. these circuits are easily corruptable by voltage spikes and EMI (do you know what EMI is?)
These late model cars are sensitive to grounding and shielding to keep extraneous noise out. When noise is introduced to these signals, they couple onto the signal lines and give false voltage signals to the receiver circuits. These cars are sensitive.
The 70's chrysler electronic ignition and voltage regualtor or any other electronics in there are not sensitive to this. The radio would pick up electrical noise but thats about it. All of the other electronics are discrete components except for some robust transistors in the radio and ECU. they dont carry the low power (millivolt, milliamp) components that todays cars have.
The alternator is very stout. it cant be blown up unless you overheat it by overcharging or shorting the output out or by dropping it. those diodes used for rectifying the output are high power diodes. they have to be. they dont die easy but they can be killed but the methods i just listed. they can also wear out (heat is a semiconductors enemy).
real old school uses tubes. they required a heck of alot of voltage to kill. or you could drop one. and yeas the wear out (heaters wear out so the electrons wont jump)
anymore questions?
I just realized that I didnt fully answer your questions. as to types of diodes, there are lots of them. there are PN junction, schottky, Zeners, rectifier etc. but the important fact is what are the diodes parameters. they have forward junction voltages, reverse breakdown voltages and current limitations. they range from little whimpy easily blown up diodes to big strong robust high power diodes that can handle some power. same with transistors. FETs Mosfets, mos, pnp, npn and they too have different parameters.
the older electronics in 70's cars used higher power components. not these microamp and milliamp stuff they use today.
It's got a cop motor, a 440 cubic inch plant, it's got cop tires, cop suspensions, cop shocks. It's a model made before catalytic converters so it'll run good on regular gas.
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Re: DODGE WONT START!! HELP!! TEY'RE ALL GONNA LAUGH AT ME
[Re: aarcuda]
#15476
05/26/05 06:23 PM
05/26/05 06:23 PM
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,033 Ontario
5537SG
super gas
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super gas
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,033
Ontario
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Im very familiar with EMI, thats part of being a real auto technician. So the best you can come up with is that these are robust and are resilliant to the voltage?? Phone that alternator rebuilder I mentioned earlier, and let him tell you how robust they are! A simple sulphated battery can cause the the rectifier to fail. Rectifiers fail because of heat, so alot depends on the heat dissipation capabilities of the alternator, where its mounted in the car, the load placed on it etc.... very good, but is it still advisable to disconnect the battery with the engine running??? what about your aftermarket stereo, your electronic autometer tach, or your replacement mechanical voltage regulator with the electronic internals?? anyone have an MSD? or some type of spark amplifier? just how robust are the Chryco electronic regulators?? or ignition boxes?? Maybe you can test one???? And issue us safe limits with a mil spec on them?? how many of peoples cars have no up to date electronics in them??? Or an alternator??!!! and what makes you so sure the old chryco ones can take it??? and if so, why would you subject them to that abuse??? get a voltmeter for $9.99!! is it still ok to disconnect it??? any questions? oh, p.s. A vehicle doesnt have to be new to be succeptible to EMI. A simple magnetic pulse generator is capable of it. ie your pickup coil! Big trucks used a twisted pair with a shielded wire for a speed sensor. This is prehistoric as it gets. It doesnt have to be a late model car to be sensitive to it like you said! often these give erronous readings due to EMI.
Last edited by 5537SG; 05/26/05 06:31 PM.
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Re: DODGE WONT START!! HELP!! TEY'RE ALL GONNA LAUGH AT ME
[Re: 5537SG]
#15477
05/26/05 06:39 PM
05/26/05 06:39 PM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 15,478 the boonies
aarcuda
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 15,478
the boonies
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Quote:
Im very familiar with EMI, thats part of being a real auto technician.
So the best you can come up with is that these are robust and are resilliant to the voltage??
Yup! what do you want, SEM photos of the die? I dont have it. you have to trust me on this
Quote:
Phone that alternator rebuilder I mentioned earlier, and let him tell you how robust they are! A simple sulphated battery can cause the the rectifier to fail. Rectifiers fail because of heat, so alot depends on the heat dissipation capabilities of the alternator, where its mounted in the car, the load placed on it etc....
Yes, sulphanted battery causes the alt to put out higher voltage and current and the diode overheats and dies. Thats what I said kills diodes- HEAT
Quote:
very good, but is it still advisable to disconnect the battery with the engine running???
on a 70's car with 70's electronics (which is what I have been saying all along), it can be done. yes
Quote:
what about your aftermarket stereo, your electronic autometer tach, or your replacement mechanical voltage regulator with the electronic internals?? anyone have an MSD? or some type of spark amplifier?
Change the situation and I'll change the answer. These are modern electronics. more susceptible but I doubt they would be harmed because I dont believe you'll see an increase in current or voltage by disconnecting the battery
Quote:
just how robust are the Chryco electronic regulators?? or ignition boxes?? Maybe you can test one???? And issue us safe limits with a mil spec on them??
Want specs? I'll get them. theyre at my house
Quote:
how many of peoples cars have no up to date electronics in them??? Or an alternator??!!! and what makes you so sure the old chryco ones can take it??? and if so, why would you subject them to that abuse???
Youre saying you get 400v when I disconnect the alternator. I say your nuts. You say I'll blow all my circuits. I say Ive done it many time before and Ive never had that happen.
Quote:
get a voltmeter for $9.99!!
My voltmeters (I have several)cost several hundred dollars. I dont use cheap tools
Quote:
is it still ok to disconnect it???
yes
It's got a cop motor, a 440 cubic inch plant, it's got cop tires, cop suspensions, cop shocks. It's a model made before catalytic converters so it'll run good on regular gas.
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Re: DODGE WONT START!! HELP!! TEY'RE ALL GONNA LAUGH AT ME
[Re: aarcuda]
#15478
05/26/05 06:41 PM
05/26/05 06:41 PM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 15,478 the boonies
aarcuda
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 15,478
the boonies
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By the way, arguing with a lawyer is like wrestling with a pig in mud. Sooner or later you realize the lawyer likes it. I goit to go. Im on vacation tomorrow but I'll check in and see how youre doing. Bye
It's got a cop motor, a 440 cubic inch plant, it's got cop tires, cop suspensions, cop shocks. It's a model made before catalytic converters so it'll run good on regular gas.
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Re: DODGE WONT START!! HELP!! TEY'RE ALL GONNA LAUGH AT ME
[Re: aarcuda]
#15480
05/26/05 07:13 PM
05/26/05 07:13 PM
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,033 Ontario
5537SG
super gas
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super gas
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,033
Ontario
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Quote:
Quote:
Im very familiar with EMI, thats part of being a real auto technician.
So the best you can come up with is that these are robust and are resilliant to the voltage??
Yup! what do you want, SEM photos of the die? I dont have it. you have to trust me on this
Sure, if you have them! and I never trust anyone because they say so.
Quote:
Phone that alternator rebuilder I mentioned earlier, and let him tell you how robust they are! A simple sulphated battery can cause the the rectifier to fail. Rectifiers fail because of heat, so alot depends on the heat dissipation capabilities of the alternator, where its mounted in the car, the load placed on it etc....
Yes, sulphanted battery causes the alt to put out higher voltage and current and the diode overheats and dies. Thats what I said kills diodes- HEAT
yes heat kills them. Ive said that a while ago, step into today! also exceeding their capabilities will kill them.
Quote:
very good, but is it still advisable to disconnect the battery with the engine running???
on a 70's car with 70's electronics (which is what I have been saying all along), it can be done. yes
In the beginning of this discussion did anybody ask the owner to ID all of his electrical components?? Did anyone go do an inventory on his vehicle? And maybe he has an aftermarket regulator thats most lilkely been replaced since 3 decades have passed?
Is this something we need to do before we heedlessly determine if the car will survive the voltage increase that you fail to realize exists??
Quote:
what about your aftermarket stereo, your electronic autometer tach, or your replacement mechanical voltage regulator with the electronic internals?? anyone have an MSD? or some type of spark amplifier?
Change the situation and I'll change the answer. These are modern electronics. more susceptible but I doubt they would be harmed because I dont believe you'll see an increase in current or voltage by disconnecting the battery
If you trust me, I might trust you! But I assure you, youre wrong, and if you were exposed to the autmotive world you would have conquered this inability to see how this really works.
Quote:
just how robust are the Chryco electronic regulators?? or ignition boxes?? Maybe you can test one???? And issue us safe limits with a mil spec on them??
Want specs? I'll get them. theyre at my house
Specs are good! maybe we can ascertain how well they will survive given the circumstances, then again, we could just use a proper diagnostic method which would eliminate all this typing and arguing. WHY CONTINUE ?? How can any logical human being state that its logical to disconnect the battery knowing what we know??
Quote:
how many of peoples cars have no up to date electronics in them??? Or an alternator??!!! and what makes you so sure the old chryco ones can take it??? and if so, why would you subject them to that abuse???
Youre saying you get 400v when I disconnect the alternator. I say your nuts. You say I'll blow all my circuits. I say Ive done it many time before and Ive never had that happen.
Pay attention , I said 200 was more likely. I never said 400. That was stated by a gentleman that went to chyco electrical school (im sure they teach all the wrong stuff) I dont say you WILL blow all your circuits, you said that (lawyer?) I said youll be likely or at least succeptible to it, and did not mention all. I said anything with an IC is succeptible and also the rectifier in the alternator. Ive got enough words in my mouth without you adding your own. You may never have anything bad happen by having unprotected "relations" but that does not make you immune. Ive said that before enough times, go read them.
Quote:
get a voltmeter for $9.99!!
My voltmeters (I have several)cost several hundred dollars. I dont use cheap tools
good for you, I too own a labscope and a graphing multimeter and other expensive tools. It still wont save you from disconnecting the battery with the car running like a moron. A simple $9.99 voltmeter is enough to diagnose if the vehicle's alternator is at least trying to charge the battery. This is much safer, reliable, and practical. Surely anyone can see that.
Quote:
is it still ok to disconnect it???
yes
ya, go right ahead. A little knowledge is dangerous. Maybe you get lucky 999 times out of 1000, good for you, but that still does not make it right. and again, only a moron would do it and subject himself to future problems. Totally unprofessional and if anyone did it, anyone of the automotive technicians I know would laught themselves silly at them
The sad thing in this all, is that I'm just an auto mechanic, not an engineer. Ive had the opportunity to pursue an career in engineering , but chose not to. I strongly suggest you contact another engineer in the automotive field and you guys can talk in your secret lingo and Im sure he'll inform you of your mistakes.
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Re: DODGE WONT START!! HELP!! TEY'RE ALL GONNA LAUGH AT ME
[Re: 5537SG]
#15481
05/26/05 07:33 PM
05/26/05 07:33 PM
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,033 Ontario
5537SG
super gas
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super gas
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,033
Ontario
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by the way AARCUDA, you still havent educated me why the article said that by disconnecting the battery with the engine running, can cause charging system failure. I know how it happens, you dont. First you have to know that the alternator voltage increases!! when youu know that, then you will be able to keep participating in this discussion. Try that, before you answer, tell me why the arcticle says it can damage the charging system. also tell me where all the power generated into the stator goes when the output terminal is disconnected from the battery. It cant jump out anywhere easy, so what does it do?? I will tell you that the stator is attached to the rectifier with diodes in it!!! how robust are they??? wouldnt the easy way out be through the diodes ??? Have you ever had an alternator apart? maybe when you try this on your truck, try hooking the battery back up with the car still running!! that might ensure some destruction for you to report. keep me posted on your expierments that already have proven results from a very very long time ago! by the way a good discussion is healthy! enjoy your holidays! oops, sorry, thought of another one. When an ignition coil builds up because the circuit has been opened, what happens to the voltage that it carries?? and what happens with that energy??? I'll give you a hint, youre best not to feel it!!. It consists of lots of volts, but very little amperage, so it wont kill you. same thing inside the alternator! whats different about a winding inside the alternator and the one inside the ignition coil??? this is auto electrical basics.
Last edited by 5537SG; 05/26/05 07:49 PM.
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Re: DODGE WONT START!! HELP!! TEY'RE ALL GONNA LAUGH AT ME
[Re: 5537SG]
#15482
05/26/05 10:36 PM
05/26/05 10:36 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 716 Lorain, Ohio
MADMANMOPAR
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 716
Lorain, Ohio
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TO THE DRIVER, STUMPY & AAR CUDA & 5537SG,
I AM THE GUILTY MOPARTS MEMBER THAT STARTED THIS 5 PAGE AND COUNTING THESIS ON THE EFFECTS OF REMOVING A POSITIVE BATTERY CABLE FROM A RUNNING CAR TO CHECK IF YOUR ALTENATOR WAS WORKING OR NOT... I KNOW IT WAS THE BACKYARD (NOT DEALER TRAINED) MECHANIC WAY TO TEST AN OLDER CARS ALTENATOR, BUT THE FACT IS PEOPLE WHO WORKED ON 60'S AND 70'S CARS HAVE DONE THIS PROBABLY MORE THAN ONCE WITHOUT A NUCLEAR REACTION HAPPENING.. I KNOW I HAVE DONE IT ON A COUPLE OF MY CARS WHICH WERE A 1969 AND 1971 YEARS (WITH POINT IGNITIONS) AND HAVE NOT HAD ANY OF THE SHORT OR LONG TERM ELECTRONIC FAILURES DESCRIBED..
TO 5537SG'S POINT(S) I REALIZE NEW CARS ARE ALOT MORE COMPLICATED THAN OUR OLDER MUSCLE CARS, HAVE MORE SENSITIVE ELECTRONICS AND REQUIRE ALOT MORE EDUCATION AND TOOLS TO FIX AND REMOVING THE POSITIVE CABLE IS NOT TO BE ATTEMPTED...AND I WILL USE A VOLTMETER NEXT TIME TO CHECK IF MY ALTENATOR IS WORKING OR NOT..JUST TO BE SAFE
BUT RIGHT OR WRONG, I AGREE WITH AARCUDA AND STUMPY WHEN THEY SAY IT WAS THE COMMON METHOD PERFORMED LOTS OF TIMES ON 60'S AND 70'S CARS WITHOUT CHERNOBAL TYPE MELTDOWNS.. I'VE SEEN IT DONE TOO MANY TIMES..
THE FACTS IN THIS THREAD CAN BE DEBATED, ARGUED ABOUT, CUSSED AT... BUT THAT WAS NOT THE INTENTION OF MY POST.. I WAS TRYING TO HELP SOMEONE GET HIS CAR GOING, NOT TO DAMAGE IT FURTHER.. SORRY IF MY BACKYARD WAYS CAUSED ANY ILL FEELINGS, BLOWN-UP RADIO'S, TACH'S OR THE CHINA SYNDROME..
GUESS I SHOULD OF KEPT MY 2 CENTS IN MY POCKET ON THIS SUBJECT..
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Re: DODGE WONT START!! HELP!! TEY'RE ALL GONNA LAUGH AT ME
[Re: MADMANMOPAR]
#15484
05/27/05 12:22 AM
05/27/05 12:22 AM
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,033 Ontario
5537SG
super gas
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super gas
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,033
Ontario
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Quote:
TO THE DRIVER, STUMPY & AAR CUDA & 5537SG,
I AM THE GUILTY MOPARTS MEMBER THAT STARTED THIS 5 PAGE AND COUNTING THESIS ON THE EFFECTS OF REMOVING A POSITIVE BATTERY CABLE FROM A RUNNING CAR TO CHECK IF YOUR ALTENATOR WAS WORKING OR NOT... I KNOW IT WAS THE BACKYARD (NOT DEALER TRAINED) MECHANIC WAY TO TEST AN OLDER CARS ALTENATOR, BUT THE FACT IS PEOPLE WHO WORKED ON 60'S AND 70'S CARS HAVE DONE THIS PROBABLY MORE THAN ONCE WITHOUT A NUCLEAR REACTION HAPPENING.. I KNOW I HAVE DONE IT ON A COUPLE OF MY CARS WHICH WERE A 1969 AND 1971 YEARS (WITH POINT IGNITIONS) AND HAVE NOT HAD ANY OF THE SHORT OR LONG TERM ELECTRONIC FAILURES DESCRIBED..
TO 5537SG'S POINT(S) I REALIZE NEW CARS ARE ALOT MORE COMPLICATED THAN OUR OLDER MUSCLE CARS, HAVE MORE SENSITIVE ELECTRONICS AND REQUIRE ALOT MORE EDUCATION AND TOOLS TO FIX AND REMOVING THE POSITIVE CABLE IS NOT TO BE ATTEMPTED...AND I WILL USE A VOLTMETER NEXT TIME TO CHECK IF MY ALTENATOR IS WORKING OR NOT..JUST TO BE SAFE
BUT RIGHT OR WRONG, I AGREE WITH AARCUDA AND STUMPY WHEN THEY SAY IT WAS THE COMMON METHOD PERFORMED LOTS OF TIMES ON 60'S AND 70'S CARS WITHOUT CHERNOBAL TYPE MELTDOWNS.. I'VE SEEN IT DONE TOO MANY TIMES..
THE FACTS IN THIS THREAD CAN BE DEBATED, ARGUED ABOUT, CUSSED AT... BUT THAT WAS NOT THE INTENTION OF MY POST.. I WAS TRYING TO HELP SOMEONE GET HIS CAR GOING, NOT TO DAMAGE IT FURTHER.. SORRY IF MY BACKYARD WAYS CAUSED ANY ILL FEELINGS, BLOWN-UP RADIO'S, TACH'S OR THE CHINA SYNDROME..
GUESS I SHOULD OF KEPT MY 2 CENTS IN MY POCKET ON THIS SUBJECT..
theres nothing wrong with adding your 2 cents to this. I dont see how you could be the direct cause of this discusson, but that really doesnt matter. What matters is that people learn the correct way to solve their troubles. Teaching people the incorrect methods will not help them, and may also cause them some troubles that they didnt even know they instigated.
I agree with stumpy and aar cuda too, I never doubted the fact that many people did this to test their charging system. Im even guilty of it myself. The difference is, I had a failure, and it cost me $$$ So, being the type of guy I am, I researched why it happened. Ive since gone on to become a professional mechanic mostly because of my thirst for knowledge in this as a hobby.
But, just because we did it, and some got lucky, doesnt make it the right thing to do. I dont wish for anyone to have ill effects from bad or improper advice, so I think its best to intervene rather than sit back and watch.
In the discussion I offered several easy ways to confirm this, and offered easier solutions to diagnose these problems, the correct way. Regardless of what year the car is.
the only concern I have with your statement quoted above is that you claim the facts can be argued. I dont agree that facts can be argued. Aa fact is a fact. It is a fact that an alternator's voltage will build and build until it finds a way out. It will take out a diode usually in te rectifier which has limits. AARCUDA said so in his description of diodes. But I knew it long before.
If you have done this on Chrysler products, you have a much lesser chance of a failure because Chrysler has blessed us with overkill on most things they made. This includes an alternators ability to dissipate heat.
Typically the only thing to fail in the old chrysler round and square backs is the brushes wear down to nothing. They usually have some brush left, but the slip ring on the rotor actually wears out first by a hair. Most small shops dont bother rebuilding these because its cheaper for them to sell a replacement. These shops will also confirm that the Mopar alternators are the least common in their shops.
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Re: DODGE WONT START!! HELP!! TEY'RE ALL GONNA LAUGH A
[Re: BigTerry]
#15485
05/27/05 12:41 AM
05/27/05 12:41 AM
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,033 Ontario
5537SG
super gas
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super gas
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,033
Ontario
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Quote:
Hey guys the problem is the newer car electrical system if I understand correctly are what they call a CLOSED LOOP system where earlier cars had a openloop system. so when you unhook a new car battery while it running you taking a comoponet out of the circuit!! am I correct on this??
Open and closed loop refer to a state the vehicles electronic engine controls are operating in. In a nutshell, open loop means the car is running off pre-programmed parameters that would be close to ideal. They typically operate in open loop during warmup , which is basically until the oxygen sensor comes online. It might not allow the trans to shiift into overdrive etc.. Each manufacturer has different ideas.
Closed loop is when the computer will make appropriate changes to the operating parameters when the vehicle is warmed up and the oxygen sensor is sending logical information to the ecu.
When the O2 sensor reports logical information to the computer, it will adjust fuel injector pulse widths (amount of fuel the engine sees) to keep the vehicle operating close to ideal fuel/air ratios. That's what is called closed loop.
additionally, most cars are using heaters in the oxygen sensors to help get them online sooner. Also to cope with 02 sensors mounted downstream in the exhaust system (post catalytic converter) They may run too cold there.
keep in mind during all of this, an oxygen sensor may be reporting a signal thats "skewed" enough to change the ideal fuel mixture for the situation. The computer sees a signal thats relatively normal, and continues on like everything is fine. This is when things get harder to diagnose. Keep in mind, if the computer sees an illogical signal, that just cant make sense, it realizes this and turns on your check engine soon light. The computer saves this data, and in post 96 cars, saves a whole freeze frame of everything the computer is monitoring. Your speed, what gear youre in, how far the throttle was depressed etc..
Open and closed loop are not actually what we are discussing in this situation, but I hope that helps your understanding of it! I can get more in detail if you desire.
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Re: DODGE WONT START!! HELP!! TEY'RE ALL GONNA LAUGH A
[Re: 5537SG]
#15486
05/27/05 03:19 AM
05/27/05 03:19 AM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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I'm late to the dance here but for what its worth I disconnect either battery terminal fairly frequently on my 84 GMC and my 77 Ramcharger and then start turning on all the accessorys til it dies to check its charging/output under load. Never had a problem. Had somebody cross the + and - on my old ladys car giving it a boast and that took out some diodes or something. Never a problem with disconnecting the battery, other than sometime I need to reprogram the radio. Im in my 40's and I just copied my dad. If I have a meter though I will use that instead, but more often than not I have a 1/2 wrench handy.
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