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Re: DODGE WONT START!! HELP!! TEY'RE ALL GONNA LAUGH AT ME
[Re: stumpy]
#15463
05/26/05 05:02 PM
05/26/05 05:02 PM
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,033
Ontario
5537SG
super gas
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super gas
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,033
Ontario
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Quote:
 
are these the facts youre bringing to the table??
I think we need an icon of a big guy beating a dead dinosaur!
find somewhere in the last 100 years where it says to disconnect the battery with the engine running, and show it to us. then laugh, til then, we laugh at you. 
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Re: DODGE WONT START!! HELP!! TEY'RE ALL GONNA LAUGH AT ME
[Re: 5537SG]
#15464
05/26/05 05:23 PM
05/26/05 05:23 PM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 15,478
the boonies
aarcuda
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 15,478
the boonies
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it says right in the article that I posted that it was an accepted method back in the 70's. is that what you wanted to see? if so, here it is again for you: "In the 1970s, removing a battery terminal was an accepted practice to test charging systems of that era. That is not the case today. " and why isn't it the case today?? well becuase today we have "sensitive electronic components, for example, emission computer, audio system, cell phone, alarm system, etc., or even the charging system itself." You see, back in the day, the "pulsating DC produced by the charging system" was not bad enough to damage the heavy duty electronics they used back then. if you want to think it does, I will let you believe that. I don't. Actually, I think you're enjoy trying to rile someone up. I'm not riled though. we were trying to edumacate but I see you can't be swayed. You have actually made me smile quite a bit with your argument. I dont buy it one bit. Keep it up.  Thats what we live for!!!
It's got a cop motor, a 440 cubic inch plant, it's got cop tires, cop suspensions, cop shocks. It's a model made before catalytic converters so it'll run good on regular gas.
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Re: DODGE WONT START!! HELP!! TEY'RE ALL GONNA LAUGH AT ME
[Re: romanucci]
#15465
05/26/05 05:32 PM
05/26/05 05:32 PM
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,864
Butler, PA
romanucci
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,864
Butler, PA
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Quote:
My vote is for the Starter.
There are many failure modes for starters, and I've experienced the one you are describing. I don't think you need a more powerful replacement, just one that cranks without seizing itself!
Fascinating Thread! FULL of great info regarding batteries and charging systems.
I still think it's the starter. 
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Re: DODGE WONT START!! HELP!! TEY'RE ALL GONNA LAUGH AT ME
[Re: aarcuda]
#15468
05/26/05 05:39 PM
05/26/05 05:39 PM
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,033
Ontario
5537SG
super gas
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super gas
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,033
Ontario
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Quote:
it says right in the article that I posted that it was an accepted method back in the 70's. is that what you wanted to see?
if so, here it is again for you:
"In the 1970s, removing a battery terminal was an accepted practice to test charging systems of that era. That is not the case today. "
and why isn't it the case today?? well becuase today we have "sensitive electronic components, for example, emission computer, audio system, cell phone, alarm system, etc., or even the charging system itself."
You see, back in the day, the "pulsating DC produced by the charging system" was not bad enough to damage the heavy duty electronics they used back then.
if you want to think it does, I will let you believe that. I don't.
Actually, I think you're enjoy trying to rile someone up. I'm not riled though. we were trying to edumacate but I see you can't be swayed. You have actually made me smile quite a bit with your argument. I dont buy it one bit. Keep it up. Thats what we live for!!!
riling somebody up is not my goal. Helping them make the correct diagnostic moves is.
Youre the engineer, edumacate me what cars have these indestrucible electronics? what models did they come in? was there a mid year introduction??? is this some secret info that you have??? its not for my consumption???
the arcticle clearly says, it was an accepted METHOD in the 70's, it does not say anything about 70's cars!!!! Its an old school METHOD!!!!
LSD was accepted in the 70's and so was free love. That doesnt make the consequences irrelevant. No immediate damage from either of those too.
well, EDUCATE Me!! when did the miracle electronics come into production and what separates them from the rest of the world??
Give me a date, what separates new cars from old cars??? ANY CAR WITH ELECTRONICS IS SUCCEPTIBLE!
now true, older stuff was usually built out of better materials, but that does not mean they are fail safe!!!!
If anyone needs to be EDUCATED its you fellas. youre way way way off. I suggest postponing your out of date practices til you can be further updated. Do everyone a favor, get the facts, then speak your turn.
and educate me how the arcticle clearly states that damage to the charging system itself is possible. DID ONLY NEW CARS COME WITH ALTERNATORS????? I said already, since 62 ish!! Nobody should disconnect a battery with the car running IF IT HAS AN ALTERNATOR!!!
Hmm whats in a diode???? tell me mr engineer!, are diodes not commonly found on ICs??
how is it you still dont believe me? Do older cars use miracle rectifiers(diodes) that are immune to this ??
Last edited by 5537SG; 05/26/05 05:55 PM.
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Re: DODGE WONT START!! HELP!! TEY'RE ALL GONNA LAUGH AT ME
[Re: stumpy]
#15470
05/26/05 05:53 PM
05/26/05 05:53 PM
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,033
Ontario
5537SG
super gas
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super gas
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,033
Ontario
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Quote:
Stumpy, I see you brought your facts to the table again. Youre in over your head now, the dead horse is not a life preserver.
all due respect.
Have a great day fellas! 
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Re: DODGE WONT START!! HELP!! TEY'RE ALL GONNA LAUGH AT ME
[Re: stumpy]
#15472
05/26/05 06:02 PM
05/26/05 06:02 PM
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,033
Ontario
5537SG
super gas
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super gas
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,033
Ontario
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Quote:
I see no need in repeating what has already been posted for you but you just don't seem to understand.
THEDRIVER I am sorry for helping to steal your post. I hope you get the car fixed. 
Well if he uses proper practices, he may be able to diagnose it. If I was there, with a snap on AVR Id diagnose it properly in under 60 seconds, but I'm not there. In order to diagnose it properly he needs a minimum of a carbon pile and a voltmeter.
and stumpy, repeating whats been said wont save your arguement, i've shown it dont hold water.
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Re: DODGE WONT START!! HELP!! TEY'RE ALL GONNA LAUGH AT ME
[Re: 5537SG]
#15474
05/26/05 06:07 PM
05/26/05 06:07 PM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 15,478
the boonies
aarcuda
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 15,478
the boonies
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newer cars (Not all cars but many built early 90's and up) started using sense circuits in the ecm. these newer ecms, used a lot of low voltage sensor circuits. these circuits are easily corruptable by voltage spikes and EMI (do you know what EMI is?)
These late model cars are sensitive to grounding and shielding to keep extraneous noise out. When noise is introduced to these signals, they couple onto the signal lines and give false voltage signals to the receiver circuits. These cars are sensitive.
The 70's chrysler electronic ignition and voltage regualtor or any other electronics in there are not sensitive to this. The radio would pick up electrical noise but thats about it. All of the other electronics are discrete components except for some robust transistors in the radio and ECU. they dont carry the low power (millivolt, milliamp) components that todays cars have.
The alternator is very stout. it cant be blown up unless you overheat it by overcharging or shorting the output out or by dropping it. those diodes used for rectifying the output are high power diodes. they have to be. they dont die easy but they can be killed but the methods i just listed. they can also wear out (heat is a semiconductors enemy).
real old school uses tubes. they required a heck of alot of voltage to kill. or you could drop one. and yeas the wear out (heaters wear out so the electrons wont jump)
anymore questions?
I just realized that I didnt fully answer your questions. as to types of diodes, there are lots of them. there are PN junction, schottky, Zeners, rectifier etc. but the important fact is what are the diodes parameters. they have forward junction voltages, reverse breakdown voltages and current limitations. they range from little whimpy easily blown up diodes to big strong robust high power diodes that can handle some power. same with transistors. FETs Mosfets, mos, pnp, npn and they too have different parameters.
the older electronics in 70's cars used higher power components. not these microamp and milliamp stuff they use today.
It's got a cop motor, a 440 cubic inch plant, it's got cop tires, cop suspensions, cop shocks. It's a model made before catalytic converters so it'll run good on regular gas.
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Re: DODGE WONT START!! HELP!! TEY'RE ALL GONNA LAUGH AT ME
[Re: aarcuda]
#15476
05/26/05 06:23 PM
05/26/05 06:23 PM
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,033
Ontario
5537SG
super gas
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super gas
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,033
Ontario
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Im very familiar with EMI, thats part of being a real auto technician. So the best you can come up with is that these are robust and are resilliant to the voltage?? Phone that alternator rebuilder I mentioned earlier, and let him tell you how robust they are! A simple sulphated battery can cause the the rectifier to fail. Rectifiers fail because of heat, so alot depends on the heat dissipation capabilities of the alternator, where its mounted in the car, the load placed on it etc.... very good, but is it still advisable to disconnect the battery with the engine running??? what about your aftermarket stereo, your electronic autometer tach, or your replacement mechanical voltage regulator with the electronic internals?? anyone have an MSD? or some type of spark amplifier? just how robust are the Chryco electronic regulators?? or ignition boxes?? Maybe you can test one???? And issue us safe limits with a mil spec on them?? how many of peoples cars have no up to date electronics in them??? Or an alternator??!!! and what makes you so sure the old chryco ones can take it??? and if so, why would you subject them to that abuse??? get a voltmeter for $9.99!! is it still ok to disconnect it???  any questions? oh, p.s. A vehicle doesnt have to be new to be succeptible to EMI. A simple magnetic pulse generator is capable of it. ie your pickup coil! Big trucks used a twisted pair with a shielded wire for a speed sensor. This is prehistoric as it gets. It doesnt have to be a late model car to be sensitive to it like you said! often these give erronous readings due to EMI.
Last edited by 5537SG; 05/26/05 06:31 PM.
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Re: DODGE WONT START!! HELP!! TEY'RE ALL GONNA LAUGH AT ME
[Re: 5537SG]
#15477
05/26/05 06:39 PM
05/26/05 06:39 PM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 15,478
the boonies
aarcuda
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 15,478
the boonies
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Quote:
Im very familiar with EMI, thats part of being a real auto technician.
So the best you can come up with is that these are robust and are resilliant to the voltage??
Yup! what do you want, SEM photos of the die? I dont have it. you have to trust me on this
Quote:
Phone that alternator rebuilder I mentioned earlier, and let him tell you how robust they are! A simple sulphated battery can cause the the rectifier to fail. Rectifiers fail because of heat, so alot depends on the heat dissipation capabilities of the alternator, where its mounted in the car, the load placed on it etc....
Yes, sulphanted battery causes the alt to put out higher voltage and current and the diode overheats and dies. Thats what I said kills diodes- HEAT
Quote:
very good, but is it still advisable to disconnect the battery with the engine running???
on a 70's car with 70's electronics (which is what I have been saying all along), it can be done. yes
Quote:
what about your aftermarket stereo, your electronic autometer tach, or your replacement mechanical voltage regulator with the electronic internals?? anyone have an MSD? or some type of spark amplifier?
Change the situation and I'll change the answer. These are modern electronics. more susceptible but I doubt they would be harmed because I dont believe you'll see an increase in current or voltage by disconnecting the battery
Quote:
just how robust are the Chryco electronic regulators?? or ignition boxes?? Maybe you can test one???? And issue us safe limits with a mil spec on them??
Want specs? I'll get them. theyre at my house
Quote:
how many of peoples cars have no up to date electronics in them??? Or an alternator??!!! and what makes you so sure the old chryco ones can take it??? and if so, why would you subject them to that abuse???
Youre saying you get 400v when I disconnect the alternator. I say your nuts. You say I'll blow all my circuits. I say Ive done it many time before and Ive never had that happen.
Quote:
get a voltmeter for $9.99!!
My voltmeters (I have several)cost several hundred dollars. I dont use cheap tools
Quote:
is it still ok to disconnect it???
yes
It's got a cop motor, a 440 cubic inch plant, it's got cop tires, cop suspensions, cop shocks. It's a model made before catalytic converters so it'll run good on regular gas.
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Re: DODGE WONT START!! HELP!! TEY'RE ALL GONNA LAUGH AT ME
[Re: aarcuda]
#15478
05/26/05 06:41 PM
05/26/05 06:41 PM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 15,478
the boonies
aarcuda
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 15,478
the boonies
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By the way, arguing with a lawyer is like wrestling with a pig in mud. Sooner or later you realize the lawyer likes it. I goit to go. Im on vacation tomorrow but I'll check in and see how youre doing. Bye 
It's got a cop motor, a 440 cubic inch plant, it's got cop tires, cop suspensions, cop shocks. It's a model made before catalytic converters so it'll run good on regular gas.
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Re: DODGE WONT START!! HELP!! TEY'RE ALL GONNA LAUGH AT ME
[Re: aarcuda]
#15480
05/26/05 07:13 PM
05/26/05 07:13 PM
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,033
Ontario
5537SG
super gas
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super gas
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,033
Ontario
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Quote:
Quote:
Im very familiar with EMI, thats part of being a real auto technician.
So the best you can come up with is that these are robust and are resilliant to the voltage??
Yup! what do you want, SEM photos of the die? I dont have it. you have to trust me on this
Sure, if you have them! and I never trust anyone because they say so.
Quote:
Phone that alternator rebuilder I mentioned earlier, and let him tell you how robust they are! A simple sulphated battery can cause the the rectifier to fail. Rectifiers fail because of heat, so alot depends on the heat dissipation capabilities of the alternator, where its mounted in the car, the load placed on it etc....
Yes, sulphanted battery causes the alt to put out higher voltage and current and the diode overheats and dies. Thats what I said kills diodes- HEAT
yes heat kills them. Ive said that a while ago, step into today! also exceeding their capabilities will kill them.
Quote:
very good, but is it still advisable to disconnect the battery with the engine running???
on a 70's car with 70's electronics (which is what I have been saying all along), it can be done. yes
In the beginning of this discussion did anybody ask the owner to ID all of his electrical components?? Did anyone go do an inventory on his vehicle? And maybe he has an aftermarket regulator thats most lilkely been replaced since 3 decades have passed?
Is this something we need to do before we heedlessly determine if the car will survive the voltage increase that you fail to realize exists??
Quote:
what about your aftermarket stereo, your electronic autometer tach, or your replacement mechanical voltage regulator with the electronic internals?? anyone have an MSD? or some type of spark amplifier?
Change the situation and I'll change the answer. These are modern electronics. more susceptible but I doubt they would be harmed because I dont believe you'll see an increase in current or voltage by disconnecting the battery
If you trust me, I might trust you! But I assure you, youre wrong, and if you were exposed to the autmotive world you would have conquered this inability to see how this really works.
Quote:
just how robust are the Chryco electronic regulators?? or ignition boxes?? Maybe you can test one???? And issue us safe limits with a mil spec on them??
Want specs? I'll get them. theyre at my house
Specs are good! maybe we can ascertain how well they will survive given the circumstances, then again, we could just use a proper diagnostic method which would eliminate all this typing and arguing. WHY CONTINUE ?? How can any logical human being state that its logical to disconnect the battery knowing what we know??
Quote:
how many of peoples cars have no up to date electronics in them??? Or an alternator??!!! and what makes you so sure the old chryco ones can take it??? and if so, why would you subject them to that abuse???
Youre saying you get 400v when I disconnect the alternator. I say your nuts. You say I'll blow all my circuits. I say Ive done it many time before and Ive never had that happen.
Pay attention , I said 200 was more likely. I never said 400. That was stated by a gentleman that went to chyco electrical school (im sure they teach all the wrong stuff) I dont say you WILL blow all your circuits, you said that (lawyer?) I said youll be likely or at least succeptible to it, and did not mention all. I said anything with an IC is succeptible and also the rectifier in the alternator. Ive got enough words in my mouth without you adding your own. You may never have anything bad happen by having unprotected "relations" but that does not make you immune. Ive said that before enough times, go read them.
Quote:
get a voltmeter for $9.99!!
My voltmeters (I have several)cost several hundred dollars. I dont use cheap tools
good for you, I too own a labscope and a graphing multimeter and other expensive tools. It still wont save you from disconnecting the battery with the car running like a moron. A simple $9.99 voltmeter is enough to diagnose if the vehicle's alternator is at least trying to charge the battery. This is much safer, reliable, and practical. Surely anyone can see that.
Quote:
is it still ok to disconnect it???
yes
ya, go right ahead. A little knowledge is dangerous. Maybe you get lucky 999 times out of 1000, good for you, but that still does not make it right. and again, only a moron would do it and subject himself to future problems. Totally unprofessional and if anyone did it, anyone of the automotive technicians I know would laught themselves silly at them
The sad thing in this all, is that I'm just an auto mechanic, not an engineer. Ive had the opportunity to pursue an career in engineering , but chose not to. I strongly suggest you contact another engineer in the automotive field and you guys can talk in your secret lingo and Im sure he'll inform you of your mistakes.
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Re: DODGE WONT START!! HELP!! TEY'RE ALL GONNA LAUGH AT ME
[Re: 5537SG]
#15481
05/26/05 07:33 PM
05/26/05 07:33 PM
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,033
Ontario
5537SG
super gas
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super gas
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,033
Ontario
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by the way AARCUDA, you still havent educated me why the article said that by disconnecting the battery with the engine running, can cause charging system failure. I know how it happens, you dont. First you have to know that the alternator voltage increases!! when youu know that, then you will be able to keep participating in this discussion. Try that, before you answer, tell me why the arcticle says it can damage the charging system. also tell me where all the power generated into the stator goes when the output terminal is disconnected from the battery. It cant jump out anywhere easy, so what does it do?? I will tell you that the stator is attached to the rectifier with diodes in it!!! how robust are they??? wouldnt the easy way out be through the diodes ??? Have you ever had an alternator apart? maybe when you try this on your truck, try hooking the battery back up with the car still running!! that might ensure some destruction for you to report. keep me posted on your expierments that already have proven results from a very very long time ago! by the way a good discussion is healthy! enjoy your holidays! oops, sorry, thought of another one. When an ignition coil builds up because the circuit has been opened, what happens to the voltage that it carries?? and what happens with that energy??? I'll give you a hint, youre best not to feel it!!. It consists of lots of volts, but very little amperage, so it wont kill you. same thing inside the alternator! whats different about a winding inside the alternator and the one inside the ignition coil??? this is auto electrical basics.
Last edited by 5537SG; 05/26/05 07:49 PM.
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Re: DODGE WONT START!! HELP!! TEY'RE ALL GONNA LAUGH AT ME
[Re: 5537SG]
#15482
05/26/05 10:36 PM
05/26/05 10:36 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 716
Lorain, Ohio
MADMANMOPAR
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 716
Lorain, Ohio
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TO THE DRIVER, STUMPY & AAR CUDA & 5537SG,
I AM THE GUILTY MOPARTS MEMBER THAT STARTED THIS 5 PAGE AND COUNTING THESIS ON THE EFFECTS OF REMOVING A POSITIVE BATTERY CABLE FROM A RUNNING CAR TO CHECK IF YOUR ALTENATOR WAS WORKING OR NOT... I KNOW IT WAS THE BACKYARD (NOT DEALER TRAINED) MECHANIC WAY TO TEST AN OLDER CARS ALTENATOR, BUT THE FACT IS PEOPLE WHO WORKED ON 60'S AND 70'S CARS HAVE DONE THIS PROBABLY MORE THAN ONCE WITHOUT A NUCLEAR REACTION HAPPENING.. I KNOW I HAVE DONE IT ON A COUPLE OF MY CARS WHICH WERE A 1969 AND 1971 YEARS (WITH POINT IGNITIONS) AND HAVE NOT HAD ANY OF THE SHORT OR LONG TERM ELECTRONIC FAILURES DESCRIBED..
TO 5537SG'S POINT(S) I REALIZE NEW CARS ARE ALOT MORE COMPLICATED THAN OUR OLDER MUSCLE CARS, HAVE MORE SENSITIVE ELECTRONICS AND REQUIRE ALOT MORE EDUCATION AND TOOLS TO FIX AND REMOVING THE POSITIVE CABLE IS NOT TO BE ATTEMPTED...AND I WILL USE A VOLTMETER NEXT TIME TO CHECK IF MY ALTENATOR IS WORKING OR NOT..JUST TO BE SAFE
BUT RIGHT OR WRONG, I AGREE WITH AARCUDA AND STUMPY WHEN THEY SAY IT WAS THE COMMON METHOD PERFORMED LOTS OF TIMES ON 60'S AND 70'S CARS WITHOUT CHERNOBAL TYPE MELTDOWNS.. I'VE SEEN IT DONE TOO MANY TIMES..
THE FACTS IN THIS THREAD CAN BE DEBATED, ARGUED ABOUT, CUSSED AT... BUT THAT WAS NOT THE INTENTION OF MY POST.. I WAS TRYING TO HELP SOMEONE GET HIS CAR GOING, NOT TO DAMAGE IT FURTHER.. SORRY IF MY BACKYARD WAYS CAUSED ANY ILL FEELINGS, BLOWN-UP RADIO'S, TACH'S OR THE CHINA SYNDROME..
GUESS I SHOULD OF KEPT MY 2 CENTS IN MY POCKET ON THIS SUBJECT..
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nuk! nuk!