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Re: 400 Stroker Build Suggestions
[Re: 451Mopar]
#1521356
02/21/14 12:00 AM
02/21/14 12:00 AM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 9,099
Rogue River, OR
Jeremiah
master
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master
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 9,099
Rogue River, OR
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Quote:
I would build the 512" stroker with the 24cc dished pistons for compression in the high 9's to very low 10's for pump fuel. The engine will have so much torque, you will want the 3.55 or 3.54:1 gears. The Strange S60 is pretty well priced. I did not like the hardware they provided for the flange to brake backing plates, but that's about it. Changing axles, you will need a shorter driveshaft.
I would just run the 8-3/4" until it needs replaced, then upgrade.
12's will be pretty easy to run if you get traction. A 750 cfm carb would be OK on the street, but for the strip, I would be looking for 950cfm and larger carb. 1-7/8" headers minimum.
Cam selection will depend more on how quick you want to be at the strip. Use a 3-bolt timing set, even if you run a hydraulic flat tappet cam, then you can use it if you change to a roller. For a mild cam, I would use something like the Comp XR286 Solid Roller with 248/254@ 0.050" duration.
Why high nines or low tens for pump gas? Aren't we getting away with 10.5-11.0 on 91? Or are you saying stay lower than that with due to more cranking PSI caused by a more "streetable cam" ?
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Re: 400 Stroker Build Suggestions
[Re: Jeremiah]
#1521358
02/21/14 05:05 AM
02/21/14 05:05 AM
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,399
Aurora, Colorado
451Mopar
master
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master
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,399
Aurora, Colorado
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Quote:
Quote:
I would build the 512" stroker with the 24cc dished pistons for compression in the high 9's to very low 10's for pump fuel. The engine will have so much torque, you will want the 3.55 or 3.54:1 gears. The Strange S60 is pretty well priced. I did not like the hardware they provided for the flange to brake backing plates, but that's about it. Changing axles, you will need a shorter driveshaft.
I would just run the 8-3/4" until it needs replaced, then upgrade.
12's will be pretty easy to run if you get traction. A 750 cfm carb would be OK on the street, but for the strip, I would be looking for 950cfm and larger carb. 1-7/8" headers minimum.
Cam selection will depend more on how quick you want to be at the strip. Use a 3-bolt timing set, even if you run a hydraulic flat tappet cam, then you can use it if you change to a roller. For a mild cam, I would use something like the Comp XR286 Solid Roller with 248/254@ 0.050" duration.
Why high nines or low tens for pump gas? Aren't we getting away with 10.5-11.0 on 91? Or are you saying stay lower than that with due to more cranking PSI caused by a more "streetable cam" ?
For a 512" street car, 3.55:1 gear, and 4-speed, I was being conservative on compression ratio for a few reasons. One is the chambers of the RPM and Stealth heads do not have as much quench area as the small chamber heads like the Victor or B1 B/S, also the spark plug location of the Stealth has not been relocated closer to the chamber center like the other heads. They may also want to use a really mild cam less than 240 @ 0.050"?, the 512 will still have plenty of torque because of its size, the engine will be more tolerant if using lower octane fuel.
The 24cc dish pistons on a 512, zero deck, 0.040" quench (head gasket) with 84cc heads is still 9.88:1 compression. The 17cc dish pistons are 10.44:1, and the flat tops with 4cc valve reliefs is 11.69:1 compression. Of course you can always get custom dish pistons for extra $$$.
I used 84cc for the head chamber size, because that is the RPM and old Stealth size. The new Stealth heads are reported to be 80cc? so that would bump the 9.88:1 compression to 10.19:1.
The dynamic compression with something like the Solid roller Comp XR286R should have a dynamic compression around 7.3:1 to 7.5:1 depending on the actual compression ratio, cam installed centerline, and valve lash.
One thing of note is that the block had been milled to set the piston even with the deck so quench equals gasket thickness, If the piston is setting below the deck or using thicker gaskets, you loose much of the quench benefits.
FWIW, I have ran my 12:1 compression 500" stroker on pump premimum on the street (I use race gas at the track to be safe), but it has smaller chamber heads, a 0.714" lift roller cam (dynamic compression is only 7.45:1) , high stall converter, 4.10:1 gears (was 3.91:1), and I run a 160 thermostat, and I am at 6,000 ft altitude. A part of running high compression on pump gas is keeping the engine and incoming air cool, and having a good tune.
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Re: 400 Stroker Build Suggestions
[Re: 451Mopar]
#1521359
02/21/14 01:29 PM
02/21/14 01:29 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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For a 512" street car, 3.55:1 gear, and 4-speed, I was being conservative on compression ratio for a few reasons. One is the chambers of the RPM and Stealth heads do not have as much quench area as the small chamber heads like the Victor or B1 B/S, also the spark plug location of the Stealth has not been relocated closer to the chamber center like the other heads. They may also want to use a really mild cam less than 240 @ 0.050"?, the 512 will still have plenty of torque because of its size, the engine will be more tolerant if using lower octane fuel. The 24cc dish pistons on a 512, zero deck, 0.040" quench (head gasket) with 84cc heads is still 9.88:1 compression. The 17cc dish pistons are 10.44:1, and the flat tops with 4cc valve reliefs is 11.69:1 compression. Of course you can always get custom dish pistons for extra $$$. I used 84cc for the head chamber size, because that is the RPM and old Stealth size. The new Stealth heads are reported to be 80cc? so that would bump the 9.88:1 compression to 10.19:1. The dynamic compression with something like the Solid roller Comp XR286R should have a dynamic compression around 7.3:1 to 7.5:1 depending on the actual compression ratio, cam installed centerline, and valve lash. One thing of note is that the block had been milled to set the piston even with the deck so quench equals gasket thickness, If the piston is setting below the deck or using thicker gaskets, you loose much of the quench benefits. FWIW, I have ran my 12:1 compression 500" stroker on pump premimum on the street (I use race gas at the track to be safe), but it has smaller chamber heads, a 0.714" lift roller cam (dynamic compression is only 7.45:1) , high stall converter, 4.10:1 gears (was 3.91:1), and I run a 160 thermostat, and I am at 6,000 ft altitude. A part of running high compression on pump gas is keeping the engine and incoming air cool, and having a good tune.
Diamond Pistons allow 2 changes to the pistons before
they call them custom... I had them add more dish
to my set and it cost $35 extra for the set... might
be $40 now ... if he goes with Dan as the builder
I believe he uses Diamond quite often and can get
them tweaked for minimal cost
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Re: 400 Stroker Build Suggestions
[Re: 451Mopar]
#1521360
02/21/14 01:36 PM
02/21/14 01:36 PM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 9,099
Rogue River, OR
Jeremiah
master
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master
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 9,099
Rogue River, OR
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I would build the 512" stroker with the 24cc dished pistons for compression in the high 9's to very low 10's for pump fuel. The engine will have so much torque, you will want the 3.55 or 3.54:1 gears. The Strange S60 is pretty well priced. I did not like the hardware they provided for the flange to brake backing plates, but that's about it. Changing axles, you will need a shorter driveshaft.
I would just run the 8-3/4" until it needs replaced, then upgrade.
12's will be pretty easy to run if you get traction. A 750 cfm carb would be OK on the street, but for the strip, I would be looking for 950cfm and larger carb. 1-7/8" headers minimum.
Cam selection will depend more on how quick you want to be at the strip. Use a 3-bolt timing set, even if you run a hydraulic flat tappet cam, then you can use it if you change to a roller. For a mild cam, I would use something like the Comp XR286 Solid Roller with 248/254@ 0.050" duration.
Why high nines or low tens for pump gas? Aren't we getting away with 10.5-11.0 on 91? Or are you saying stay lower than that with due to more cranking PSI caused by a more "streetable cam" ?
For a 512" street car, 3.55:1 gear, and 4-speed, I was being conservative on compression ratio for a few reasons. One is the chambers of the RPM and Stealth heads do not have as much quench area as the small chamber heads like the Victor or B1 B/S, also the spark plug location of the Stealth has not been relocated closer to the chamber center like the other heads. They may also want to use a really mild cam less than 240 @ 0.050"?, the 512 will still have plenty of torque because of its size, the engine will be more tolerant if using lower octane fuel.
The 24cc dish pistons on a 512, zero deck, 0.040" quench (head gasket) with 84cc heads is still 9.88:1 compression. The 17cc dish pistons are 10.44:1, and the flat tops with 4cc valve reliefs is 11.69:1 compression. Of course you can always get custom dish pistons for extra $$$.
I used 84cc for the head chamber size, because that is the RPM and old Stealth size. The new Stealth heads are reported to be 80cc? so that would bump the 9.88:1 compression to 10.19:1.
The dynamic compression with something like the Solid roller Comp XR286R should have a dynamic compression around 7.3:1 to 7.5:1 depending on the actual compression ratio, cam installed centerline, and valve lash.
One thing of note is that the block had been milled to set the piston even with the deck so quench equals gasket thickness, If the piston is setting below the deck or using thicker gaskets, you loose much of the quench benefits.
FWIW, I have ran my 12:1 compression 500" stroker on pump premimum on the street (I use race gas at the track to be safe), but it has smaller chamber heads, a 0.714" lift roller cam (dynamic compression is only 7.45:1) , high stall converter, 4.10:1 gears (was 3.91:1), and I run a 160 thermostat, and I am at 6,000 ft altitude. A part of running high compression on pump gas is keeping the engine and incoming air cool, and having a good tune.
Than you sir. I appreciate you sharing that.
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Re: 400 Stroker Build Suggestions
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#1521361
02/22/14 06:39 AM
02/22/14 06:39 AM
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,399
Aurora, Colorado
451Mopar
master
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master
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,399
Aurora, Colorado
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Quote:
Diamond Pistons allow 2 changes to the pistons before
they call them custom... I had them add more dish
to my set and it cost $35 extra for the set... might
be $40 now ... if he goes with Dan as the builder
I believe he uses Diamond quite often and can get
them tweaked for minimal cost
Good info on the pistons. I thought those pistons were around $800/set, but I found a place selling them for under $700/set.
I sent 68KillerBee a PM, and recommended he use one of the shops here to get a pre inspected / setup kit, and to make sure the shop checks that the crank has the correct pilot hole size for a manual trans bushing.
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Re: 400 Stroker Build Suggestions
[Re: Jeremiah]
#1521362
02/24/14 11:19 AM
02/24/14 11:19 AM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 6,445
Missouri
68KillerBee
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 6,445
Missouri
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Thanks for all the replies. I guy has a set of these brand new for $475 or should I just keep searching for some used TTI's in 1 7/8". Not in a huge hurry for headers as I'm STILL waiting for the machine shop  . Once they do their work, then I'll order up the kit from Performance Only. someday... Here's the headers I can get for $475-->> http://www.summitracing.com/parts/dte-151-c/overview/edit: Maybe I can make a road trip to Indy this weekend for the trade show to see what all is there. doubtful, unless I can find someone else to join... 
Last edited by 68KillerBee; 02/24/14 11:24 AM.
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Re: 400 Stroker Build Suggestions
[Re: 68KillerBee]
#1521364
03/02/14 04:25 PM
03/02/14 04:25 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
Alright, which pick up should I get for the oil pan. I believe this is the pan that I need to get, but don't know 1/2" or 3/8" pickup. Wish it hadn't been bad weather or I would have went up to Indy looking for headers, oil pan etc.
http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/mabheap.html
Thanks for all the answers to my "newbie" questions. 
Just get the 3/8 pick up ... you would have to redrill
and tap the hole if you went 1/2" but this is a street
car so you wont be reving it all that high for any
length of time
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Re: 400 Stroker Build Suggestions
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#1521365
03/02/14 09:54 PM
03/02/14 09:54 PM
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,399
Aurora, Colorado
451Mopar
master
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master
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,399
Aurora, Colorado
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Quote:
Quote:
Alright, which pick up should I get for the oil pan. I believe this is the pan that I need to get, but don't know 1/2" or 3/8" pickup. Wish it hadn't been bad weather or I would have went up to Indy looking for headers, oil pan etc.
http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/mabheap.html
Thanks for all the answers to my "newbie" questions.
Just get the 3/8 pick up ... you would have to redrill
and tap the hole if you went 1/2" but this is a street
car so you wont be reving it all that high for any
length of time
The hemi oil pan works great with the 3/8" pickup. I have that setup on my 383 engine. T used the same oil pan on my stroked 440, but with the oiling modified for 1/2", and I had a hard time getting the correct 1/2" pickup for that setup?
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Re: 400 Stroker Build Suggestions
[Re: 451Mopar]
#1521366
03/02/14 10:14 PM
03/02/14 10:14 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 6,445
Missouri
68KillerBee
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 6,445
Missouri
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Alright, which pick up should I get for the oil pan. I believe this is the pan that I need to get, but don't know 1/2" or 3/8" pickup. Wish it hadn't been bad weather or I would have went up to Indy looking for headers, oil pan etc.
http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/mabheap.html
Thanks for all the answers to my "newbie" questions.
Just get the 3/8 pick up ... you would have to redrill
and tap the hole if you went 1/2" but this is a street
car so you wont be reving it all that high for any
length of time
The hemi oil pan works great with the 3/8" pickup. I have that setup on my 383 engine. T used the same oil pan on my stroked 440, but with the oiling modified for 1/2", and I had a hard time getting the correct 1/2" pickup for that setup?
Would this be basically the same oil pan? http://www.summitracing.com/parts/dcc-5007807ab/overview/
A member pm'd me and has one that he can no longer use.... Otherwise I'll put mancini's "kit" on my to buy list. 
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Re: 400 Stroker Build Suggestions
[Re: 68KillerBee]
#1521367
03/02/14 10:20 PM
03/02/14 10:20 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,115
Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,115
Bend,OR USA
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Alright, which pick up should I get for the oil pan. I believe this is the pan that I need to get, but don't know 1/2" or 3/8" pickup. Wish it hadn't been bad weather or I would have went up to Indy looking for headers, oil pan etc.
http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/mabheap.html
Thanks for all the answers to my "newbie" questions.
Just get the 3/8 pick up ... you would have to redrill
and tap the hole if you went 1/2" but this is a street
car so you wont be reving it all that high for any
length of time
The hemi oil pan works great with the 3/8" pickup. I have that setup on my 383 engine. T used the same oil pan on my stroked 440, but with the oiling modified for 1/2", and I had a hard time getting the correct 1/2" pickup for that setup?
Would this be basically the same oil pan? http://www.summitracing.com/parts/dcc-5007807ab/overview/
A member pm'd me and has one that he can no longer use.... Otherwise I'll put mancini's "kit" on my to buy list.
No that is not the 6 quart 1970/71 Street Hemi/440 6 pak pan  Buy the best one you can get, it is really hard to have to much oil supply available on thses motors, especially when your revving them up 
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: 400 Stroker Build Suggestions
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#1521369
03/03/14 02:49 AM
03/03/14 02:49 AM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 6,445
Missouri
68KillerBee
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 6,445
Missouri
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No that is not the 6 quart 1970/71 Street Hemi/440 6 pak pan Buy the best one you can get, it is really hard to have to much oil supply available on thses motors, especially when your revving them up
That's what I thought, but was double checking.  
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Re: 400 Stroker Build Suggestions
[Re: 68KillerBee]
#1521370
06/02/14 01:54 PM
06/02/14 01:54 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 6,445
Missouri
68KillerBee
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 6,445
Missouri
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My health has been shoddy so far this year so I was in and out of the hospital. I also work overnights, so it's tough getting anything done. I was having dan  from performance only build me a "stroker kit". But we all know the unfortunate circumstances that happened there. Last week I call muscle motors and i have my stroker kit being built by them right now. I have stock stealth heads on my super bee right now and they are going to go on the new motor. So after this weekend, I may take them off and send them up there for them to CNC them. If not then, I will do it over the winter. I've got pretty much everything ordered. Just need to figure out pushrods, rockers, and valve covers. I guess intake and carb too now. I have a holley 750, but that will be too small. What should I move up to? Remember this is a driver, with 3-4 trips to the drag strip a year. Also will my newish intake be useless also after all of these adjustments. It's just an Edelbrock performer rpm? Still holding out for a set of used TTI's also. I'll have to give in eventually. O and I went with MM's "400/470”: 3.91 stroke x 6.700 rod, 4.375 bore 1.320 CH piston. " kit.
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Re: 400 Stroker Build Suggestions
[Re: 68KillerBee]
#1521371
06/02/14 03:57 PM
06/02/14 03:57 PM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,431
SK,Canada
gregsrt
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,431
SK,Canada
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MM built the shortblock for my 400 based 512. I used crane 3/8' pushrods, crane stainless steel roller rockers, Stealth heads, they spec'd out the solid flat tappet cam, Performer RPM intake, 830 Quickfuel street series carb, Firecore dist and wires, TTi 1 7/8" headers, TTi 3" exhaust with Ultraflows. I'm still tuning it now, got the timing about right after lots of reading and searching on here, just need more jetting. Also just went to an RC9YC plugs from the RC12YC to help with the pinging etc. Seemed better last night after the changes. Spins through 1st and most of the way through second with 3.55 gears.....and a smallish tire. Stupid 66 B body wheel wells. Lol Here's a vid after the first fire http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkwCr9yTm1I
An association of men who will not quarrel with one another is a thing which has never yet existed, from the greatest confederacy of nations down to a town meeting or a vestry.
Thomas Jefferson
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Re: 400 Stroker Build Suggestions
[Re: gregsrt]
#1521372
06/04/14 03:37 PM
06/04/14 03:37 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 6,445
Missouri
68KillerBee
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 6,445
Missouri
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Thanks for the info. Would a 850 be good enough for the streets or go 950? I like using Holleys, but am up for whatever. More good news on all of this is that I've got a 68 18 spline transmission that I'm buying off a board member, along with flywheel, pressure plate, clutch, etc. I just went up to Chicago yesterday to buy wheels for my challenger and I wasnt feeling great, so I headed home instead of meeting up with my friends. Had I stayed the night I woulda saw the members post and bought the stuff today. argh. My buddy is coming down on fathers day weekend and is going to pick it up for me though. The Dana I bought was thought to have 3.54's in it, but we opened it and it ends up they are 4.10's. So now I'm working on finding some one to trade me 3.73's to make it a little more street-able. I got a guy that will build me a new drive shaft. Just trying to remember all the little stuff. I have a recurved distributor, but I guess I should go with a better one (firecore)?? I already run his wires on it. Then maybe get the REV-N-NATOR also so I'll have a rev limiter. If the weather holds out this weekend I will run my car once more Friday night down the strip. (runs ~14.5's at 92-93). Then a fathers day car show.... Then rip off the heads and have Muscle Motors cnc and do their thing with the heads. Hopefully have it all back together by the Nationals (hah). Don't know if I'm going for sure or not though. Need to schedule a date to go up to the Mayo clinic this year, so might have to use my days off work for that instead of going to the nationals. Thanks again everyone for all the input so far. I'm going to read back through all of this next week when I'm off for five days and have everything set to make this huge driveline swap. 
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