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Re: Changing VIN plate to new dash frame [Re: 7812845] #1520217
10/21/13 03:29 AM
10/21/13 03:29 AM
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JohnRR Offline
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Quote:

I've had the rivets for quite a while, not a problem and I didn't pay $65 for them, must have got them before they became like gold.

btw.. I'm keeping the old dash frame in case there's ever a question. It's pretty obvious that the tornado made it useless.




Without a VIN attached to it how will you prove what it was ?? And seriously ... why bother ???

Re: Changing VIN plate to new dash frame [Re: JohnRR] #1520218
10/21/13 06:41 AM
10/21/13 06:41 AM
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NEW JERSEY
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If you buy the same rivets and install them inthe same postion as marked on the tag..you will not see a difference

Re: Changing VIN plate to new dash frame [Re: AARCONV] #1520219
10/21/13 08:50 AM
10/21/13 08:50 AM
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Florida
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Sounds like the only "right" thing to do at this point is to get a salvaged title for the car.

Re: Changing VIN plate to new dash frame [Re: BDW] #1520220
10/21/13 11:37 AM
10/21/13 11:37 AM
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Quote:

Sounds like the only "right" thing to do at this point is to get a salvaged title for the car.





Re: Changing VIN plate to new dash frame [Re: rowin4] #1520221
10/21/13 03:05 PM
10/21/13 03:05 PM
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PA
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Quote:

Just make sure you rivet the plate on in the right direction.




I saw an E body with it's vin tag upsidedown from the factory. Many, many years ago. It was never messed with.

Re: Changing VIN plate to new dash frame [Re: superwrench] #1520222
10/21/13 06:59 PM
10/21/13 06:59 PM
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Millinocket, Maine
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JonC Offline
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Quote:

I know there are "purists" on this board, but in a case like yours, I would think that the reason you have mentioned should be enough for any normal person. I had to change out my dash frame on my '68 GTX...reason?...'cause the other one had been hacked up by the radio. I could have probably fixed it because it's hidden, but the replacement frame was so clean that I couldn't resist painting it up and using it. I didn't "document" anything....Whoever ends up buying it after me will just have to believe my story as to why the Rosette rivets have been changed.
OK...now I'm ready for the verbal abuse...!!! LOL





I did something similar, I sent my dash in for new pad and didn't want to take a chance on losing the tag. I used regular rivets to put it back on. To me it's no big deal as the other numbers on the car correspond to the tag.

Re: Changing VIN plate to new dash frame [Re: JonC] #1520223
10/21/13 07:24 PM
10/21/13 07:24 PM
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Quote:


I did something similar, I sent my dash in for new pad and didn't want to take a chance on losing the tag. I used regular rivets to put it back on. To me it's no big deal as the other numbers on the car correspond to the tag.




Not a problem for you, but if you ever sell it and the new owner has to get it inspected, or a cop pulls you over and glances at it those regular rivets will be a problem. Will you eventually be able to sort it out? Probably, but it won;t be worth the effort.


They say there are no such thing as a stupid question.
They say there is always the exception that proves the rule.
Don't be the exception.
Re: Changing VIN plate to new dash frame [Re: Supercuda] #1520224
10/21/13 07:28 PM
10/21/13 07:28 PM
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Millinocket, Maine
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JonC Offline
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No I am not worried about at all. Cops in my area wouldn't know about the rivets. (I worked 40+ years as an EMT/Firefighter and know all of them personally). And there is no inspection in Maine on antique cars. It won't be for sale as long as I'm alive.

Re: Changing VIN plate to new dash frame [Re: Supercuda] #1520225
10/21/13 07:44 PM
10/21/13 07:44 PM
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Bitopia
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jcc Offline
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Quote:

Quote:


I did something similar, I sent my dash in for new pad and didn't want to take a chance on losing the tag. I used regular rivets to put it back on. To me it's no big deal as the other numbers on the car correspond to the tag.




Not a problem for you, but if you ever sell it and the new owner has to get it inspected, or a cop pulls you over and glances at it those regular rivets will be a problem. Will you eventually be able to sort it out? Probably, but it won;t be worth the effort.




So are these magic rivets "Mopar" exclusive, or all VIN rivets always this special in some way, and who knows or what reference source details this for arguments sake?


Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
Re: Changing VIN plate to new dash frame [Re: jcc] #1520226
10/21/13 08:35 PM
10/21/13 08:35 PM
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Posts: 14,889
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Quote:



So are these magic rivets "Mopar" exclusive, or all VIN rivets always this special in some way, and who knows or what reference source details this for arguments sake?




No they are not MoPar specific, but they are vin tag specific. As in it better be rosette rivets or people will ask questions.

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/%28S%28pgj...ame=mcl-750-415

In some states merely owning them is illegal. In others not.


They say there are no such thing as a stupid question.
They say there is always the exception that proves the rule.
Don't be the exception.
Re: Changing VIN plate to new dash frame [Re: Supercuda] #1520227
10/21/13 08:47 PM
10/21/13 08:47 PM
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Millinocket, Maine
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JonC Offline
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Like I said, I am not worried about LEO or inspections. I did not know about the rivets when I had the pad restored. But I would like to have known at the time and would have done it. I don't want to go thru removing the dash again to correct it (Age 66 and can't see good enough to do it now). If I happen to have to replace the windshield at some point I would probably replace them.

Re: Changing VIN plate to new dash frame [Re: Supercuda] #1520228
10/21/13 09:51 PM
10/21/13 09:51 PM
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Bitopia
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jcc Offline
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"(3) In all prosecutions under this section, possession by a person of a motor vehicle or of a mechanical device with the manufacturer's serial number or the engine or motor number removed, defaced, destroyed or altered or with a part bearing the number or numbers replaced by one on which the proper number does not appear, shall be prima facie evidence of violation of this section.
"

Reads to me swapping an engine with another engine with different engine SN is technically a violation


"(4) If the identification of a motor vehicle or a mechanical device has been removed, defaced, or altered as provided in this section and the real identity of the motor vehicle or mechanical device cannot be determined, the motor vehicle or mechanical device shall be subject to confiscation by the state and shall be sold at public auction, put to official use by the government agency seizing the vehicle, or rendered scrap. If the items are confiscated from a licensed vehicle dealer, the dealer's license shall be revoked."

The key wording here is, how do you establish legally "real identity" if part is a number bearing part, has been removed?

"(5) A person shall not knowingly possess, buy, deliver, or offer to buy, sell, exchange, or give away any manufacturer's vehicle identification number plate, federal safety certification label, antitheft label, posident die stamps, secretary of state vehicle identification label, rosette rivet, or any facsimile thereof. This subsection does not apply to a motor vehicle manufacturer, a motor vehicle parts supplier under contract with a motor vehicle manufacturer, or a law enforcement officer in the official performance of his or her duties or to a motor vehicle in which a manufacturer's vehicle identification plate and each of the applicable labels listed in this subsection have been installed as prescribed by law. A person who violates this subsection is guilty of a felony, punishable by imprisonment for not more than 4 years, a fine of not more than $10,000.00, or both. If the person who violates this subsection is a licensed dealer or repair facility, its license shall be revoked."

Self explanatory, don't be caught with a VIN dash pad, rossett rivets, etc

"(6) A person shall not buy, receive, or obtain control of a motor vehicle or motor vehicle part with the intent to sell or otherwise dispose of the motor vehicle or motor vehicle part knowing that an identification number of that motor vehicle or motor vehicle part has been removed, obliterated, tampered with, or altered. This subsection does not apply to a motor vehicle obtained from or at the direction of a law enforcement agency. A person who violates this subsection is guilty of a felony punishable by imprisonment for not more than 10 years, a fine of not more than $20,000.00, or both."

Don't let seller explain how he restored car by reattaching vin plate, etc

Confiscation by the enforcing department for their own department use in Mi is the most worrisome detail IMO, ie it provides significant incentive to interpret the rules to their benefit.


Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
Re: Changing VIN plate to new dash frame [Re: jcc] #1520229
10/21/13 11:04 PM
10/21/13 11:04 PM
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Quote:


The key wording here is, how do you establish legally "real identity" if part is a number bearing part, has been removed?




Don't have to prove "real identity". The fact that the number bearing part has been removed is proof of violation.

Which means it's up to you to prove otherwise and the way the law is written you cannot. Which is not to say a reasonable DA, judge or jury won't see things your way, but like I said above, it isn't worth the aggravation.

And that is why I will not fool with anything with VIN issues. Not worth it to me no matter how great a deal it may be.

Closest I will come to anything like that is buying a very old vehicle with no title. I have been through the bonded title routine twice and it's a doable and legal way to do things, but it's not all that easy.


They say there are no such thing as a stupid question.
They say there is always the exception that proves the rule.
Don't be the exception.
Re: Changing VIN plate to new dash frame [Re: Supercuda] #1520230
10/21/13 11:37 PM
10/21/13 11:37 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
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Western Colorado High Desert
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"the motor vehicle or mechanical device shall be subject to confiscation by the state and shall be sold at public auction"

So they take your car and then sell to some other poor sap?


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Re: Changing VIN plate to new dash frame [Re: moparmarks] #1520231
10/21/13 11:59 PM
10/21/13 11:59 PM
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Blair County,PA
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To all who may have visions of changing a tag in the future for any reason,first just do it,second,don't post it on Moparts or any other forum !

Re: Changing VIN plate to new dash frame [Re: 62maxwgn] #1520232
10/23/13 12:28 AM
10/23/13 12:28 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
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U.S.S.A.
JohnRR Offline
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Quote:

To all who may have visions of changing a tag in the future for any reason,first just do it,second,don't post it on Moparts or any other forum !





Re: Changing VIN plate to new dash frame [Re: JohnRR] #1520233
10/23/13 01:06 AM
10/23/13 01:06 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 228
Myrtle Beach
Boot Offline
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Myrtle Beach
Just an FYI, I was reading on another forum that now some of the collector car insurance companies are checking VINs and rivets now, as a means to deny a claim. Some are even checking engine #s against body numbers, and without CLEAR documentation as to where the donor came from, they can actually legally deny. They enter into contracts with the legal assumption that a collector or classic or special interest car is numbers matching, as it should be according to law. Be careful with numbers, and be sure to clearly document everything.

To the OP, I would take several pics of the damaged frame with vin attached before transferring to the new frame, and use the correct rivets just to be safe.


47 chopped Plymouth Sedan 340/727
Re: Changing VIN plate to new dash frame [Re: Boot] #1520234
10/23/13 09:02 AM
10/23/13 09:02 AM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 444
Loma Linda, MO
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7812845 Offline OP
mopar
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My thoughts exactly,and since I'm the OP that's what I am going to do.


2020 RAM Longhorn 4x4
2022 Jeep Grand Cherokee Overland
Re: Changing VIN plate to new dash frame [Re: Boot] #1520235
10/23/13 10:44 AM
10/23/13 10:44 AM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,695
Bitopia
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jcc Offline
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
jcc  Offline
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J

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,695
Bitopia
Quote:

Just an FYI, I was reading on another forum that now some of the collector car insurance companies are checking VINs and rivets now, as a means to deny a claim. Some are even checking engine #s against body numbers, and without CLEAR documentation as to where the donor came from, they can actually legally deny. They enter into contracts with the legal assumption that a collector or classic or special interest car is numbers matching, as it should be according to law. Be careful with numbers, and be sure to clearly document everything.

To the OP, I would take several pics of the damaged frame with vin attached before transferring to the new frame, and use the correct rivets just to be safe.




It figures. And likely after accepting years of premiums without any concern. Would a fix be to request/require insurance company to accept the vehicle with an inspection (inspect and photograph all the rivets they want) as to what exactly they are covering and be bound to it, before a claim and misunderstandings arise?


Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
Re: Changing VIN plate to new dash frame [Re: RUNCHARGER] #1520236
10/23/13 10:53 AM
10/23/13 10:53 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,010
Alberta, Canada
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krisiesmopes Offline
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K

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Posts: 1,010
Alberta, Canada
Quote:

Yep: Buy the rivets, change it, be happy.
10 million E-body owners can't be wrong.

Sheldon




This made me laugh.

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