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Ugh.. never ending! Front end alignment #1519751
10/18/13 08:37 PM
10/18/13 08:37 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 12,589
Sacramento, CA
cal_gecko Offline OP
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As you may or may not know, my 71 Dart is getting close to completion (after working on it for 10 years) ... the shop that's finishing it up for me drove it to the exhaust shop yesterday and they told me that the alignment is WAY off (no shock, I have done a bunch of parts replacement in the front suspension over the last 10 years and never had it aligned because the car wasn't drivable) ... anyways.. front ride height is really high, and it's got a lot of negative camber (tops of wheels are closer together than bottom).. my concern is, that when I adjust the ride height, doesn't that typically add more negative camber? I hope there's enough adjustment room to take all this negative camber out - otherwise I have other issues.

Re: Ugh.. never ending! Front end alignment [Re: cal_gecko] #1519752
10/18/13 09:03 PM
10/18/13 09:03 PM
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WV
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JohnH Offline
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I aligned front ends in the 70s on these cars. You can lower the torsion bars down to lower the front end, this will change your camber, if you don't have any shock bounce your way too high. get it on the front end rack, lower your front end until the car is slightly lower in the front, first check your air pressure, then lower it,, bounce the front end several times, then go to the rear of the car, stand back several feet and see if the car looks level to you, then do your front end alignment, get all the pos. caster you can get, this keeps cars from road walking, if you can't get the camber to come in, raise or lower the car with torsion bar adjustment see if it will come in.. if you readjust the bars go to the rear again to see if it looks level..

Re: Ugh.. never ending! Front end alignment [Re: cal_gecko] #1519753
10/18/13 09:04 PM
10/18/13 09:04 PM
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ahy Offline
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With stock type parts it should be OK. At this point, I think you just have to try it out. Get the ride height where it needs to be and adjust the cams to get alignment close "by eye". If it doesn't look right a few pics would help diagnose.

Suggest you at least set the toe before driving it to protect the tires. A carpenters rule to a common tread feature in the front and rear of the tire can get it in the ballpark.

Re: Ugh.. never ending! Front end alignment [Re: cal_gecko] #1519754
10/18/13 09:05 PM
10/18/13 09:05 PM
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Kirkland, Washington
Pacnorthcuda Offline
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Mark, yes dropping the ride height will increase camber to towards the negative. Ride height is the FIRST adjustment made.

Set your ride height to what you want---then you want an alignment of approx 0 to 1 degree negative camber (probably .5 to 1 degree given that your looking for aggressive road handling), as much positive caster as possible while equal on both sides, and about 1/16 to 1/8" toe in, with more toe providing better handling but more tire wear.

Re: Ugh.. never ending! Front end alignment [Re: Pacnorthcuda] #1519755
10/18/13 09:38 PM
10/18/13 09:38 PM
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Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline
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Take the car to Linville Brothers on El Camino near I-80. They are the only ones I trust with my cars, and the Ram. Prices are fair and they do excellent work.

Last edited by Frankenduster; 10/18/13 11:49 PM.
Re: Ugh.. never ending! Front end alignment [Re: cal_gecko] #1519756
10/18/13 10:07 PM
10/18/13 10:07 PM
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buildanother Offline
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They should be able to align it for you, and many A arm cars do become quite negative on camber when raised up too high.

Re: Ugh.. never ending! Front end alignment [Re: cal_gecko] #1519757
10/19/13 01:47 AM
10/19/13 01:47 AM
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Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert Offline
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I'd set the ride height where the front tires look right in the wheelwells. Set a 2 ft carpenters level vertical on each front tire side wall & adj the cams till the camber is zero (vertical) then adj the tie rod sleeves till the toe in is straight ahead with the steering box in the middle of it's travel by measureing the tread on the front & the back (3 & 9 o'clock) of the tires & getting that distance equal. Need a helper to hold the tape. Drive it to the alignment shop. Have your weight in barbells on the pass seat & you or them pull them over to the dr seat as you exit the vehicle after driving it onto the rack.


live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
Re: Ugh.. never ending! Front end alignment [Re: buildanother] #1519758
10/19/13 10:11 AM
10/19/13 10:11 AM
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Dcuda69 Offline
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Quote:

They should be able to align it for you, and many A arm cars do become quite negative on camber when raised up too high.




This^^^ SLA(short/long arm suspension) cars will go negative camber when raised up. Drop it with a T-bar adjustment to where you want it and have it aligned..you'll be good to go.

P.S. Do not use the factory specs.....do what these guys are saying.

Re: Ugh.. never ending! Front end alignment [Re: Dcuda69] #1519759
10/19/13 01:13 PM
10/19/13 01:13 PM
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Posts: 12,589
Sacramento, CA
cal_gecko Offline OP
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Thanks guys!! This makes me feel better, knowing that it's normal for it to go negative when it goes too high. I'll work with the guys at the shop on getting the basic alignment set up the way you've suggested.. .Frankenduster, I may give your place a shot for the final recipe too.. thanks!!!

Guys - I'm getting stoked - the car is SO close to being done.. it's got ALL windows in it now, electrical/headlights/wipers all work, oil leak is fixed, exhaust is now done..

next up - alignment, install new (aftermarket retractable) seat belts, and check the rear end because they noticed it was whining a bit ... and then I'll get it back!!! I'll bring it back to them in a few weeks to have the rear seat finished up (I ordered a new cover from Dante, which will take a couple weeks to get to the shop).

I'm sure that when I get it back, there's still gonna be some things to work out, little gremlins and such.. so I'm sure I'll be posting more on the QA section. Can't wait to get it on the road - it's been 10 years since I bought the car and I've never driven it.. but SOON!

Re: Ugh.. never ending! Front end alignment [Re: cal_gecko] #1519760
10/19/13 02:10 PM
10/19/13 02:10 PM
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Kirkland, Washington
Pacnorthcuda Offline
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Quote:

Thanks guys!! This makes me feel better, knowing that it's normal for it to go negative when it goes too high. I'll work with the guys at the shop on getting the basic alignment set up the way you've suggested.. .Frankenduster, I may give your place a shot for the final recipe too.. thanks!!!

!




Mark, not that it really matters since you will be getting an alignment, but lowering the front will move camber to the negative, raising it will move it to the positive. In your case lowering the height will make your already excessive neg camber even worse.

Re: Ugh.. never ending! Front end alignment [Re: Pacnorthcuda] #1519761
10/19/13 02:19 PM
10/19/13 02:19 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline
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The Moog K 7103 offset bushings for the UCAs are a great plus if you are using stock a arms. I have them in the Charger.

Re: Ugh.. never ending! Front end alignment [Re: Kern Dog] #1519762
10/21/13 09:27 PM
10/21/13 09:27 PM
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Posts: 12,589
Sacramento, CA
cal_gecko Offline OP
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Just got a call back from the shop .. I had them bring it to a local alignment shop they use for their cars just to get it done..

Idler arm is SHOT - he said it pulls about 1.25" out of the socket.. this is fairly easy, maybe an hour of labor and a $50 part.

strut rod bushings are also TOAST .. which it sounds like those are a PITA to replace - he said the torsion bars need to come out, LCA's need to be removed.. does that sound right? .. sounds like this is about $600 worth of labor

UGH!!!!

Re: Ugh.. never ending! Front end alignment [Re: cal_gecko] #1519763
10/21/13 10:21 PM
10/21/13 10:21 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
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Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline
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All that stuff is pretty easy if you have done it before. With the car up on jackstands, everything comes apart with some basic tools. A factory service manual helps if you've never done it.
I developed my Chrysler front end skills by taking cars apart at Pick-n-pull!

Re: Ugh.. never ending! Front end alignment [Re: Kern Dog] #1519764
10/21/13 10:32 PM
10/21/13 10:32 PM
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ahy Offline
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Yes TB's need to come out for strut rod bushings. If other parts have not been replaced yet (tie rod ends, ball joints, LCA bushings, UCA bushings) now is the time to do it while its apart. As you have seen, the cost is mostly labor. As posted above, its not that bad to DIY. A factory service manual and a few tools make it straight forward. I use Mancini's front end tool kit with good results.

Re: Ugh.. never ending! Front end alignment [Re: ahy] #1519765
10/21/13 10:38 PM
10/21/13 10:38 PM
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Posts: 21,808
Kirkland, Washington
Pacnorthcuda Offline
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Quote:

Yes TB's need to come out for strut rod bushings. If other parts have not been replaced yet (tie rod ends, ball joints, LCA bushings, UCA bushings) now is the time to do it while its apart. As you have seen, the cost is mostly labor. As posted above, its not that bad to DIY. A factory service manual and a few tools make it straight forward. I use Mancini's front end tool kit with good results.




Exactly, it's a 40 plus year old car, do it all now, and put in offset bushings in the UCAs.

Re: Ugh.. never ending! Front end alignment [Re: Pacnorthcuda] #1519766
10/22/13 12:41 AM
10/22/13 12:41 AM
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Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert Offline
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If they're shooting you a quote of $600 then bring it home & do it yourself then get it close as I described then drive it back there to be aligned. EDIT I have my doubts that the strut rod bushings are bad & they are just trying to get over on someone (but I ain't there & they could be bad), save em & post pics

Last edited by RapidRobert; 10/22/13 12:44 AM.

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Re: Ugh.. never ending! Front end alignment [Re: RapidRobert] #1519767
10/22/13 02:07 AM
10/22/13 02:07 AM
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Posts: 12,589
Sacramento, CA
cal_gecko Offline OP
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The guy at the shop working on my car said he could move the strut rod back and forth with his foot... they are suggestion polyurethane bushings (which makes sense) .. I'll probably have them do the idler arm just so it's safe to drive, then I'll go through everything this winter myself.

Re: Ugh.. never ending! Front end alignment [Re: cal_gecko] #1519768
10/22/13 06:53 AM
10/22/13 06:53 AM
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for $250.00 - $300.00 YOU CAN REBUILD THE ENTIRE FRONT END.its not rocket science,trust me you can do it and save yourself big $$.

Re: Ugh.. never ending! Front end alignment [Re: mcmopars] #1519769
10/22/13 11:53 AM
10/22/13 11:53 AM
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Posts: 12,589
Sacramento, CA
cal_gecko Offline OP
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Yeah - that's what I'm gonna do. I've been itching to drive the car, and it's SO close to being done after 10 years ... and part of me wants to just pay to get it done so I can get it on the road ASAP.. but I know that the labor involved would be substantial. I will have them get it to the point where it's ok for me to drive home and maybe a little bit of putting around for the remainder of the nice Fall weather we have - then I'll plan on re-doing the entire front suspension myself in the winter.

Anyone use poly bushings in their Mopar? Suggestions on a place to get them? Ones to avoid?

Re: Ugh.. never ending! Front end alignment [Re: cal_gecko] #1519770
10/22/13 01:05 PM
10/22/13 01:05 PM
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Renton Washington
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Triple Threat Offline
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MY opinion, just pay them to do it. To do the strut rods and Idler they're going to have a lot of it apart anyway. Just have them rebuild and align it, and you wont have to worry about it again for years. If they do half the work now, align it, and then you have to do more later, its going to need aligned again.

You're better off spending the $600 to have it done. Then take that weekend you would have spent rebuilding it this winter and go snap some pictures to pay for it. Judging by the 10 years it took to get to this point, you're better behind the lense, then you are with a wrench. Play to your strengths, and let those guys do the same.


-Dustin
67 Dart, 9 second, 392" G3 Hemi
68 Barracuda 340 F/SA
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