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EMC 2013 470 B stroker build #1518908
10/17/13 12:28 PM
10/17/13 12:28 PM
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The Great White North
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Like title says , I thought seeing what went into this build would be of interest to some so here is what it took to build a budget conscious Mopar stroker for use in the 2013 EngineMaster's Challenge.
The 3 main rules were 3000-7000rpm test range, hydraulic lifters, 11.5 comp, 1.75" throttle bore carb (Holley 950 Hp)

At the contest it made peaks of 755 hp and 674 lbs.

Rundown: 400 block circa '75 (short fill), stock steel 440 crank final cubes came in @ 466
Bore 4.361"
Stroke 3.900" (small error in offset resulted in .015" less stroke)
6.135" Scat BBC rods
Icon 826 pistons with 1.867" CHT
CompCam roller 256/260 @.050" .750/.708" 106 LSA
Custom 1/2" girdle with aluminum main cap spacers
internal oil p-u 1/2" NPT
Cloyes Hex-Adjust timing set
ProComp heads 2.25" (hollow stem) 1.75"
Indy 400-2 intake
Schoenfeld 1 7/8-2" dyno/sprintcar headers

This was to be our development engine to beat on trying different parts/configs. I had most of these parts on hand and wanted to get it together, test things out and then build a copy with much nicer parts and a few more tricks with what we learned testing this one.
I had this engine running late August and was surprised it made pretty good power considering the low buck nature of it. Our first test up to 6500 rpm netted peaks of 708 hp/638 ft/lbs @ 32 total.
Our first pull to 7000 rpm dropped to 508 hp @ 7000 rpm! Due to lifter instability.

I know I am forgetting things to post about this build. Ask away. J.Rob

7890773-RRAM.jpg (362 downloads)
Last edited by RAMM; 10/17/13 12:55 PM.

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Re: EMC 2013 470 B stroker build [Re: RAMM] #1518909
10/17/13 12:30 PM
10/17/13 12:30 PM
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Here is where most of my attention went. You can see how much angle milling the heads changed the shape of the chambers.

In this shot you cannot see that I relocated the dowel position .100" to move the valves closer to bore centerline. J.Rob

7890774-EMCchambers.JPG (351 downloads)
Last edited by RAMM; 10/17/13 12:53 PM.

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Re: EMC 2013 470 B stroker build [Re: RAMM] #1518910
10/17/13 12:34 PM
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Another shot of the 3.125" intake openings. Flow topped out at 360-363cfm from .700-1.00". I was after stability not flow rates. J.Rob

7890778-3.125ports.JPG (252 downloads)
Last edited by RAMM; 10/17/13 12:52 PM.

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Re: EMC 2013 470 B stroker build [Re: RAMM] #1518911
10/17/13 12:36 PM
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Here is a shot of how terrible the valve position is. Notice how the valve wants to open right into the exhaust side of the cylinder. J.Rob

7890781-Stockvalvepos.JPG (295 downloads)
Last edited by RAMM; 10/17/13 12:52 PM.

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Re: EMC 2013 470 B stroker build [Re: RAMM] #1518912
10/17/13 12:38 PM
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Quote:

Here is a shot of how terrible the valve position is. Notice how the valve wants to open right into the exhaust side of the cylinder. J.Rob




Now contrast previous photo with this one after angle milling but before dowel relocating. After I moved the dowel holes the valves moved a further .100" closer to lifter valley. J.Rob


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Re: EMC 2013 470 B stroker build [Re: RAMM] #1518913
10/17/13 12:43 PM
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The main girdle was probably the most fun and straightforward part of the bottom end. I milled it out from a solid blanchard ground steel. I didn't feel like messing around with some shim arrangement so I milled the tops of the main caps flush with the bolt holes and measured the distance between them and the girdle. Aluminum "cap straps" were made in that dimension fitted per cap to act as the spacer between cap and girdle. I feel that these would still give some of the benefits of a an aluminum cap and still be as stable as an iron cap. I think it worked quite well. J.Rob

7890792-girdlesammich.JPG (298 downloads)
Last edited by RAMM; 10/17/13 12:51 PM.

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Re: EMC 2013 470 B stroker build [Re: RAMM] #1518914
10/17/13 12:47 PM
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Here are the Icon pistons before and after I moved the valve notches back and corrected for angle of the valves. J.Rob

7890795-flycutIcons.JPG (233 downloads)

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Re: EMC 2013 470 B stroker build [Re: RAMM] #1518915
10/17/13 12:50 PM
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Here is a shot of the completed shortblock. You can see the big dish I had to put in the top of the piston. J.Rob

7890800-EMCshortblock.JPG (242 downloads)

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Re: EMC 2013 470 B stroker build [Re: RAMM] #1518916
10/17/13 01:10 PM
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Nice work. Too bad the guys at ProComp didn't do a real design with those tricks instead of just copying someone else's design. They could've moved the ball ahead for all Mopar guys if they had used some of the ideas that you put in.

Re: EMC 2013 470 B stroker build [Re: RAMM] #1518917
10/17/13 01:15 PM
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How much more is involved with the relocation of the valve position? I imagine you need to slot the existing bolt holes and possibly bush them? How much is gained by doing this over leaving it as-is? I'm collecting parts for a 470" build and interested in any tweaks that can net a few extra hp

Re: EMC 2013 470 B stroker build [Re: 451Cuda] #1518918
10/17/13 01:28 PM
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Quote:

How much more is involved with the relocation of the valve position? I imagine you need to slot the existing bolt holes and possibly bush them? How much is gained by doing this over leaving it as-is? I'm collecting parts for a 470" build and interested in any tweaks that can net a few extra hp




The valve relocation requires flycutting for proper radial clearance and restoring the proper angle to the bottom of the valve relief. In this case I had to adjust the pocket 2.25* from stock.

Yes I did elongate the holes and spot faced them as well. No bushing was required. In fact I think I could get away with .025" more offset for a total of .125".

I would not hesitate to say that this was worth 20-25 hp alone. May not seem like much but the camshaft is really not all that large in duration. I ran this same cam in 2009 with tunnel ram and solid lifters and struggled to make 680 hp. For me that kind of put it into perspective. J.Rob


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Re: EMC 2013 470 B stroker build [Re: RAMM] #1518919
10/17/13 01:41 PM
10/17/13 01:41 PM
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Quote:

Like title says , I thought seeing what went into this build would be of interest to some...



He11 yes!

When I think of some good questions, I'll ask. In the mean time I'm just perusing the pics & specs and trying to absorb everything that went into the build.

EDIT: NEED BIGGER IMAGES!!! Those things look like thumbnails, not full-size pics.

Last edited by BradH; 10/17/13 01:44 PM.
Re: EMC 2013 470 B stroker build [Re: BradH] #1518920
10/17/13 01:51 PM
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Yes on the images Brad. I have a hard time making them small enough usually for Moparts--now they are too small.

I would also like to give a big thanks to Rick @ FireCore 50 for his awesome support and products he supplied me. In the very near future I will be doing some A-B-A testing of his ignition products. I am expecting some solid results based on what I have already experienced. J.Rob


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Re: EMC 2013 470 B stroker build [Re: RAMM] #1518921
10/17/13 01:56 PM
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Questions:

1. Got a full-curve flow chart for the heads?

2. Got dyno data for a representative 3000-7000 RPM pull?

3. How did the results from your dyno correlate to the EMC dyno?

4. What did you run for valve springs to support that much lift?

5. What would you change to "detune" it for a more street-friendly & reliable combination?

That's all for now...

Re: EMC 2013 470 B stroker build [Re: RAMM] #1518922
10/17/13 01:57 PM
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What lifters did you end up using?


Mopar to the bone!!!
Re: EMC 2013 470 B stroker build [Re: RAMM] #1518923
10/17/13 01:58 PM
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I would also like to thank my buddy Joe who did such a nice job on the crank. This crank was a 40+ year old 440 steely that I tig'd the undercuts on the rods up and he offset ground and cut .300"+ from the counterweights. We profiled and cleaned the counterweights up as well. It took 2 slugs of Mallory to get it to balance. Bobweight was 2268g, no lightweight here. J.Rob


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Re: EMC 2013 470 B stroker build [Re: BradH] #1518924
10/17/13 02:09 PM
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Quote:

Questions:

1. Got a full-curve flow chart for the heads?

2. Got dyno data for a representative 3000-7000 RPM pull?

3. How did the results from your dyno correlate to the EMC dyno?

4. What did you run for valve springs to support that much lift?

5. What would you change to "detune" it for a more street-friendly & reliable combination?

That's all for now...




1. I do and will post it later point for point.

2. Yes. I have several pulls.

3. I will post the sheets from EMC later and you can see that as well.

4. Valvesprings were a PSI dual with 185 seat 610 open pressures.

5. Detuning would be a cam change with a softer lobe. I doubt it would impact the output very much. It is extremely reliable as is. I have 54 dyno pulls on it here and 6 at EMC and it has never produced less than 720 hp at peak. I have had it torn down more than once and it was a relief to see it looking so good. J.Rob


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Re: EMC 2013 470 B stroker build [Re: 72Swinger] #1518925
10/17/13 02:11 PM
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Quote:

What lifters did you end up using?




I wound up using Johnson/Hylift rollers in a short travel design. Joe Lewis is the guy to talk to there. Best lifter for the $$$ out there. J.Rob


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Re: EMC 2013 470 B stroker build [Re: RAMM] #1518926
10/17/13 02:15 PM
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I would LOVE to see a break-down of how much it cost to build an engine like this if a person had to buy all the parts and pay for all the machine work. Believe me guys this is not your average cheap 700 plus HP engine.


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Livin and lovin life one day at a time




Re: EMC 2013 470 B stroker build [Re: pittsburghracer] #1518927
10/17/13 02:27 PM
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Quote:

Believe me guys this is not your average cheap 700 plus HP engine.



Never knew there was such a thing...

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