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Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! [Re: Cab_Burge] #1492964
09/07/13 04:05 AM
09/07/13 04:05 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline OP
Striving for excellence
Kern Dog  Offline OP
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Granite Bay CA
What the hell was I thinking???
I thought I read in the Edelbrock instructions to not exceed 12 lbs!
As I said, I always went further than that. I certainly went beyond 35 ft lbs this time!
Tomorow I'll fire it up and drive it.

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! [Re: Kern Dog] #1492965
09/07/13 05:03 AM
09/07/13 05:03 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 4,501
Gainesville,FL
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goldmember Offline
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Sorry your going down so many dead ends.

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! [Re: Kern Dog] #1492966
09/07/13 08:46 AM
09/07/13 08:46 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,309
Prospect, PA
BSB67 Offline
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Quote:

Quote:



This is why you use the choke method.




By "choke" do you mean put my hands around the choke/primary area? I did that yesterday and was able to stall the engine at idle.


What do you think of my fuel pressure?





The engine rpm will rise a little before it dies if there is a leak.

5 psi at the carb, at WOT with .110" fuel inlets should support 550 to 600 hp, from my experience.

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! [Re: Kern Dog] #1492967
09/07/13 02:02 PM
09/07/13 02:02 PM
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 508
Cincinnati, Ohio
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superbeedave Offline
mopar
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Quote:

What the hell was I thinking???
I thought I read in the Edelbrock instructions to not exceed 12 lbs!
As I said, I always went further than that. I certainly went beyond 35 ft lbs this time!
Tomorow I'll fire it up and drive it.




I would like to make a comment and I don't want you to take it the wrong way but it seems like every time we/you turn around you have made a mistake or think you may have made a mistake. Do you think that maybe you could have also made a mistake or missed something within the engine like degreeing in the cam wrong? I'm just stating the facts Frankenduster! We all would like you to fix this probelm so we can get on with our lives! Or help someone else out with their problems! Lol!!

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! [Re: superbeedave] #1492968
09/07/13 02:37 PM
09/07/13 02:37 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline OP
Striving for excellence
Kern Dog  Offline OP
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Life is full of mistakes, Dave.
Sure, I've made a few. If I knew everything, I wouldn't be here asking for advice. A thread like this would have only had 4 responses if all the ducks were in a row and the car ran perfectly. I have had great luck with almost every other car I've owned because they were either stock or only slightly warmed over. A high performance engine raises the stakes beyond what I have dealt with. Part of the problem is that I have trusted some people that gave poor advice. First off, the vendor that sold me the stroker assembly.
* "Sure, it will run fine on pump gas."
Of course it will. Its just that everything in the combo has to be tuned more carefully since the high compression raises the stakes.
" Detonation, huh? I suggest a smaller cam and some thicker head gaskets to lower compression."
The above two quotes came from a respected vendor. This was my first foray into a high compression stroked engine and I relied on others to steer me through it.
I am not pissed, but I'd like to know what all the mistakes you think I've made? Carb jetting? Its an experiment process. What works for one engine isn't right for another. Distributor timing? Same thing. I wrote that the engine ran warm during the cam break in. Who hasn't had that happen in warm weather? So far the only real screw up has been the oiled intake gaskets. Maybe it was due to my insufficient torque, maybe the intake and head have a slight misalignment I cannot see. Some guys install their valley pans with the paper gaskets, some do not.
Maybe some look at a thread with 150 responses and automatically think the OP is an idiot that can't get his junk figured out. If you are the type to make snap judgements, that is too bad. There has been some great advice in this thread that may help others in the future.

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! [Re: Kern Dog] #1492969
09/07/13 02:51 PM
09/07/13 02:51 PM
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,526
North Carolina
cjskotni Offline
pro stock
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Quote:

Life is full of mistakes, Dave.
Sure, I've made a few. If I knew everything, I wouldn't be here asking for advice. A thread like this would have only had 4 responses if all the ducks were in a row and the car ran perfectly. I have had great luck with almost every other car I've owned because they were either stock or only slightly warmed over. A high performance engine raises the stakes beyond what I have dealt with. Part of the problem is that I have trusted some people that gave poor advice. First off, the vendor that sold me the stroker assembly.
* "Sure, it will run fine on pump gas."
Of course it will. Its just that everything in the combo has to be tuned more carefully since the high compression raises the stakes.
" Detonation, huh? I suggest a smaller cam and some thicker head gaskets to lower compression."
The above two quotes came from a respected vendor. This was my first foray into a high compression stroked engine and I relied on others to steer me through it.
I am not pissed, but I'd like to know what all the mistakes you think I've made? Carb jetting? Its an experiment process. What works for one engine isn't right for another. Distributor timing? Same thing. I wrote that the engine ran warm during the cam break in. Who hasn't had that happen in warm weather? So far the only real screw up has been the oiled intake gaskets. Maybe it was due to my insufficient torque, maybe the intake and head have a slight misalignment I cannot see. Some guys install their valley pans with the paper gaskets, some do not.
Maybe some look at a thread with 150 responses and automatically think the OP is an idiot that can't get his junk figured out. If you are the type to make snap judgements, that is too bad. There has been some great advice in this thread that may help others in the future.




Don't feel bad at all. I have made a few of these 'epic saga' threads myself when I had some hard-to-find issues with my Charger. It happens and that's why Moparts is here. If some don't care to keep following your progress, then they can always stop reading the thread.

I still stand by that at least part of your issue is vacuum leak related. It fits the whole lean fuel mix and really low vacuum you are experiencing. The jetting you were going to in order to richen the mixture up seemed pretty high to me but I am not a pro on carbs by a long shot.

12ft-lbs of torque on the intake bolts ain't squat. I'm not sure what you read (or mistook) but 30-35 ft-lbs would be more appropriate. It is important not to over-torque on these aluminum heads but 12 is wayyy too loose. I never use the paper gaskets with the valley pan. I just run a bead of copper RTV ont he sealing surfaces and bolt her together. Finger tight all around then snug the intake bolts down to maybe 15 ft-lbs in crisscross fashion then repeat to 30 ft-lbs or so. Don't worry about the RTV oozing out...you can cut it off when it cures and any inside the intake ports will blow out your tailpipe when you crank it!

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! [Re: Kern Dog] #1492970
09/07/13 03:02 PM
09/07/13 03:02 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 6,301
colorado
A
a12superbee Offline
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colorado
Don't take it too personally, we're all still pulling for you.

So, how did the last road test go with more torque to the intake?


I can't afford this. mark
Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! [Re: a12superbee] #1492971
09/07/13 03:33 PM
09/07/13 03:33 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline OP
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Granite Bay CA
Thanks!
I'm heading out there in a few minutes! I wonder if I'll have to get it warmed up and run it awhile to clean off the oil film on the intake ports.

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! [Re: Kern Dog] #1492972
09/07/13 04:21 PM
09/07/13 04:21 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,271
Vista, California
6
67Satty Offline
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Vista, California
Whenever I run into mechanical problems I like to pretend I am a scientist/engineer applying scientific method to the problem, trying one experiment at a time and noting the results.

In your example:

Is carb source of detonation? Tried different carb, still detonates, so carb is not issue.

Is cam source of detonation? Tried different cam, still detonates, so cam is not issue.

Is low fuel pressure source of detonation? Tested fuel pressure, checks out OK, so fuel pressure is not an issue.

Is distributor curve source of detonation? Don't know, you haven't experimented with a distributor you know for sure to be set up for your combo. That test still needs to be run.
if you don't send your distributor to someone like Don at FBO to curve for you, then why not just copy what someone else has done with a similar combo with their distributor and then test that?

Do you know for sure the dyno guy who messed with your distributor knew what he was doing? Was he a Chevy guy or a Mopar guy?

The other thing a scientist or engineer would do is make some guesses based on work that has already been done by others (no need to reinvent the wheel). In your case, there's tons of people who have run similar combos with similar cylinder pressures without detonation. So cylinder pressure checks out OK.

Another question to ask, the people who are running the same cylinder pressure or higher on pump gas with no detonation, what is different about their combo from yours?

Your next test is what effect proper intake manifold torque has, which you should be able to find out in about 20 minutes.

I think making sure you have the correct curve/phase on your distributor is the next test and one of the cheapest and easiest to try out compared to all the other stuff you tried.

The other thing I like to do is start with the easiest/cheapest stuff first and work my way in because I'm lazy and cheap but that is also probably the most efficient too.

A great book to read is called "Rocket Men" about the engineers who took on Kennedy's challenge of putting a man on the moon by the end of the 1960s. It's unreal and staggering how many mistakes and challenges they overcame in such a short amount of time. I think about the stuff they overcame whenever I get frustrated with issues with my old car or motorcycles.

You'll get it eventually if you just keep applying enough scientific method to it.




Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! [Re: 67Satty] #1492973
09/07/13 04:54 PM
09/07/13 04:54 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 6,301
colorado
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a12superbee Offline
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Posts: 6,301
colorado
Hopefully you're not back too soon, how long are your drives with the car?
Do you drive it around like a car or a few quick stabs at the throttle and back to the shop?


I can't afford this. mark
Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! [Re: Kern Dog] #1492974
09/07/13 06:47 PM
09/07/13 06:47 PM
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 508
Cincinnati, Ohio
S
superbeedave Offline
mopar
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Cincinnati, Ohio
Quote:

Life is full of mistakes, Dave.
Sure, I've made a few. If I knew everything, I wouldn't be here asking for advice. A thread like this would have only had 4 responses if all the ducks were in a row and the car ran perfectly. I have had great luck with almost every other car I've owned because they were either stock or only slightly warmed over. A high performance engine raises the stakes beyond what I have dealt with. Part of the problem is that I have trusted some people that gave poor advice. First off, the vendor that sold me the stroker assembly.
* "Sure, it will run fine on pump gas."
Of course it will. Its just that everything in the combo has to be tuned more carefully since the high compression raises the stakes.
" Detonation, huh? I suggest a smaller cam and some thicker head gaskets to lower compression."
The above two quotes came from a respected vendor. This was my first foray into a high compression stroked engine and I relied on others to steer me through it.
I am not pissed, but I'd like to know what all the mistakes you think I've made? Carb jetting? Its an experiment process. What works for one engine isn't right for another. Distributor timing? Same thing. I wrote that the engine ran warm during the cam break in. Who hasn't had that happen in warm weather? So far the only real screw up has been the oiled intake gaskets. Maybe it was due to my insufficient torque, maybe the intake and head have a slight misalignment I cannot see. Some guys install their valley pans with the paper gaskets, some do not.
Maybe some look at a thread with 150 responses and automatically think the OP is an idiot that can't get his junk figured out. If you are the type to make snap judgements, that is too bad. There has been some great advice in this thread that may help others in the future.



I apologize Frank if I affended you and your intelegence when it comes to this situation. I am behind you all the way and I will just sit back and keep my opinons to myself and cross my fingers in hope that you get through this without any major problems. How did the valley pan change go for you. Did you have alot of oil in your head ports and between the pan gasket and heads? I sure did mine today when I pulled my pan and intake off. Keep pushing and fighting you will figure it out! I am beginning to think that the black RTV gets eaten away by the fuel that goes thru the ports which over time causes oil leaks and vacuum leaks.

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now its time to TUNE it. [Re: Kern Dog] #1492975
09/08/13 02:30 AM
09/08/13 02:30 AM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,698
NE Oklahoma
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Von Offline
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NE Oklahoma
Quote:

The Flatout would lower my compression to 10.11 to one. Surely that would run on 91 octane.






I have a .040 440 that figures to be around 10.15 comp. Cam was a solid 259/259. 452s with flat top pistons, so no quench whatsoever. I only audibly heard that motor rattle one time. It was a hot (95) degree day, high humidity. Went home and pulled some timing. Back to 34ish, I believe. Never heard anymore rattle. When I pulled the heads off, pistons in cylinder 1 and 5 show light peppering on the tops.The other 6 look fine. Nothing major. But, it showed me that the motor was on the ragged edge of detonation.


72 RR, Pump gas 440, 452s, 3800 lbs, Corked, ET Radials,. 11.33@117.72. Same car, bone stock 346s, 9.5 comp, baby solid. 12.24@110.
Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! [Re: Kern Dog] #1492976
09/08/13 02:36 AM
09/08/13 02:36 AM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,698
NE Oklahoma
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Von Offline
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Von  Offline
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Quote:

Maybe some look at a thread with 150 responses and automatically think the OP is an idiot that can't get his junk figured out.




In regards to the above....I started numerous threads about the never ending issues I had in regards to burning up push rod cups. I tried everyting under the sun, and never really found an absolute answer to my issue(s). Im sure ALOT of people think Im an idiot, cuz apparently I am the only one in the history of BB Mopars to have the problems I had..but oh well....

In any case, you will get it figured out!!


72 RR, Pump gas 440, 452s, 3800 lbs, Corked, ET Radials,. 11.33@117.72. Same car, bone stock 346s, 9.5 comp, baby solid. 12.24@110.
Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! [Re: superbeedave] #1492977
09/08/13 02:40 AM
09/08/13 02:40 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline OP
Striving for excellence
Kern Dog  Offline OP
Striving for excellence

Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Thanks, 67Satty. Your response took awhile to write! I actually did send an email to FBO on Thursday. Their web site states that they do not work on Fridays...I'll wait to hear back on Monday. I agree that the distributor could still be an issue.
I also agree that other guys are running similar combinations without the detonation problems that I am seeing. This is exactly why I get so frustrated! Its not as if I am in totally uncharted territory. When I was trying everything under the sun to stop detonation with the 509 cam still in place, I got a wide range of suggestions. A large proportion of them were to "go with a bigger cam".
I will get this figured out.
SuperBeeDave:
If I appeared touchy, I am sorry. I am not above criticism. I can take it if it is legitimate. I'm trying hard here to figure this out and I appreciate all the help I am getting. I understand how it can be for those that offer help through websites. You take the time to peck at the computer your best suggestions and the OP still seems lost. Those that offer help may start to feel unappreciated and resentful. I have been on the other end and I DO get it. I also must say that I am as humble as anyone. My ego is not so big for me to omit my mistakes for the sake of saving face. I admit where I screwed up. I don't think we should keep our opinions to ourselves all the time. I like a bit of controversy, a smart aleck remark or an insult now and then as long as it isn't malicious.

Todays update: I went out to start the car after yesterdays work. The valley pan was replaced and this time I used the paper gaskets on both sides of the tin. YES, this time I torqued the intake bolts to MORE than 12 ft/lbs! I also replaced the valve cover gaskets to cure a small leak on each side.
This morning I went out to find 2 oil leaks! Okay, before you convince yourself that I really am an idiot, let me explain. Looking from underneath, I noticed that the gasket rail on the valve cover hung over the head by more than 1/8" at the bottom. I pulled the valve covers and found that I was right. The gasket surface on the Edelbrock head is actually narrower than the valve cover by 3/16". This may not be a problem if I had used the hard black fibrous gaskets, but I used some thinner rubber ones that came in a gasket set. . The rubber distorted when I tightened down the covers because the gaskets only sit about halfways on the head! Huh??
I pulled the covers again, removed the gaskets and cleaned the RTV off. I usually use the hard gaskets in this car. This was the first time I tried the softer rubber ones. I had no idea that the valve covers were wider than the heads. Now that I am aware of this, I'll be sure to hold the valve covers UP towards the intake while tightening the bolts. This should insure that the lower section of the valve cover and gasket makes more contact on the head.
I put the better sealing "hard fibrous" gaskets on the valve covers and let them sit to set up.
I was busy the rest of the day with other things, so if I get time, I'll get the covers on and road test.

Oh, the good gaskets I usually use are Fel Pro PN: VS 50145 R. They came up as the proper gaskets for a 1975 Chrysler New Yorker with a 440.

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! [Re: Von] #1492978
09/08/13 10:23 AM
09/08/13 10:23 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,309
Prospect, PA
BSB67 Offline
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BSB67  Offline
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Prospect, PA
Quote:



In regards to the above....I started numerous threads about the never ending issues I had in regards to burning up push rod cups. I tried everyting under the sun, and never really found an absolute answer to my issue(s). Im sure ALOT of people think Im an idiot, cuz apparently I am the only one in the history of BB Mopars to have the problems I had..but oh well....






I was wondering if you ever figured this one out, knowing that if you did, we would all learn something.

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! [Re: BSB67] #1492979
09/08/13 12:14 PM
09/08/13 12:14 PM
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NE Oklahoma
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Von Offline
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Von  Offline
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Quote:

Quote:



I was wondering if you ever figured this one out, knowing that if you did, we would all learn something.





Well I got the burning cup issue to go away. On a whim, I changed oil pump relief springs. I had cut one down, to lower pressure. Pressure was more than enough with the cut spring. 50ish lbs at idle. After I changed spring, pressure is mid 60s at idle. The issue went away. Seems crazy to need that much pressure to stop the issue.

I did have a groove put in my cam. It gets more oil to the top, although not a major amount more.

I have a 470 on the stand that will have a roller cam in it. I did the valley mods/installed a restrictor on it to get full time oiling. I'll see how that works.


72 RR, Pump gas 440, 452s, 3800 lbs, Corked, ET Radials,. 11.33@117.72. Same car, bone stock 346s, 9.5 comp, baby solid. 12.24@110.
Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! [Re: Von] #1492980
09/08/13 01:58 PM
09/08/13 01:58 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 6,545
Downtown Roebuck Ont
Twostick Offline
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Twostick  Offline
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 6,545
Downtown Roebuck Ont
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:



I was wondering if you ever figured this one out, knowing that if you did, we would all learn something.





Well I got the burning cup issue to go away. On a whim, I changed oil pump relief springs. I had cut one down, to lower pressure. Pressure was more than enough with the cut spring. 50ish lbs at idle. After I changed spring, pressure is mid 60s at idle. The issue went away. Seems crazy to need that much pressure to stop the issue.

I did have a groove put in my cam. It gets more oil to the top, although not a major amount more.

I have a 470 on the stand that will have a roller cam in it. I did the valley mods/installed a restrictor on it to get full time oiling. I'll see how that works.




It probably makes more sense than you think.... now.

IIRC those cups were oiled thru the adjusters or thru a verrry small passage in the arm itself. Liquids are just like electricity in that they will take the path of least resistance. In your case 50 psi wasn't enough pressure (voltage if you will) to overcome the resistance of the passage compared to other sources of escape near by.

Kevin

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! [Re: Twostick] #1492981
09/09/13 11:34 AM
09/09/13 11:34 AM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,746
Ontario, Canada
Dodgem Offline
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Ontario, Canada
So how are things coming :-)
I was away for two days racing well one day got 1 tt and then rain but yesterday was cool! went 4 rounds out in the 1/4's with 5 cars left probably should have had that one too lifted a tad to soon. :-(
But Mopar day so all cool nots of great cars.

I had my trials at the track after the first TT almost stalling at the ticket booth and when i backed it in?? next TT same thing smells bad idle is missing we check and check cool it down and in with a new set of C59CX no different, tighten intake, intake adapter and carb nothing? Pull both valve covers nothing have it running still the same great spark so we are standing there talking a bit of vapor smoke coming out of the carb as often then buddy says was that a wisp of smoke coming from under front of carb I look and it's coming out of the idle mixture screw hole mixture screw is MIA grab one out of my 800 and set as is cool again! LOL! Little loose s a bit of duck tape over it and go. That took us an Hour! :-)

I had thought about tinkering with mixtures and if I had would have found it right away but normally I set it and don't ever have to tinker with it!

Oh well 35 year old 1050 Dommy may need a couple new parts!


Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! [Re: Twostick] #1492982
09/10/13 01:43 AM
09/10/13 01:43 AM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,698
NE Oklahoma
V
Von Offline
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Von  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2003
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NE Oklahoma
Quote:


It probably makes more sense than you think.... now.

IIRC those cups were oiled thru the adjusters or thru a verrry small passage in the arm itself. Liquids are just like electricity in that they will take the path of least resistance. In your case 50 psi wasn't enough pressure (voltage if you will) to overcome the resistance of the passage compared to other sources of escape near by.

Kevin




I smell what you are steppin in...but...

I had the same issue on 2 different motors. Different blocks, heads, etc.

I tried 5 different sets (Brands) of rockers. 4 different sets of shafts. 5 different lengths of pushrods. Different adjusters. Hollow adjusters. Shimmed the rockers super tight. I even "turned" the hold down hardware down a few .001 to get more flow through the shafts. Id estimate I pumped 5 gallons of oil out of the dang motors onto the ground.

While it is a "crappy" design, it doesnt take much oil to keep the cups happy.

The only common factor to everything is an oil additive I used/still use. SLOB. I cant see that it would be the "cause"

While I understand what you are saying...quite a few guys have less to much less pressure than I have. Esp the guys with non bushed blocks with roller lifters. Ive not heard of anywhere near the issues I had.


72 RR, Pump gas 440, 452s, 3800 lbs, Corked, ET Radials,. 11.33@117.72. Same car, bone stock 346s, 9.5 comp, baby solid. 12.24@110.
Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! [Re: Von] #1492983
09/10/13 06:56 PM
09/10/13 06:56 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 738
Columbus Ohio
M
mopfried Offline
super stock
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Posts: 738
Columbus Ohio
Frankenduster!! Your killin me dude!! So whats happining. Did you get to the bottom of the pinging? My 440 in my scamp pings too! I have a wideband and have yet to install it. I am also running a BG 850 DP,,, I have also had a 750 Holley vac secondary on it... What have you found??


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