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Re: Cam break in is done!....Now its time to TUNE it. [Re: Kern Dog] #1492944
09/06/13 02:28 AM
09/06/13 02:28 AM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,007
Bend,OR USA
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Cab_Burge Offline
I Win
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Posts: 43,007
Bend,OR USA
Try disconnecting the collectors so you can run it with open headers to see if that helps


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: Cam break in is done!....Now its time to TUNE it. [Re: Kern Dog] #1492945
09/06/13 02:55 AM
09/06/13 02:55 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline OP
Striving for excellence
Kern Dog  Offline OP
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
In 2006 I tried using .060 Cometic MLS head gaskets to cure this same problem. It worked for me then. A few years later while trying to diagnose an oil burning issue, I found that I had some odd valve stem wear. I pulled the heads to replace the bad ones. The Cometics were thrown away. I didn't have the cash for new ones, so I went with some Fel Pro 1009s I had in my parts stash. Since then, the detonation has been sporadic. My notes show little, but I did write that the Cometics and Comp XE285 cam idled smoother and ran great without detonation. I even had one page where I wrote that I had the timing set to 35-36 degrees for max power but the 23 degree initial made the car hard to start.
I know that using thicker head gaskets flies in the face of some opinions here. Some think the detonation would get worse due to lost quench. Other members say that at my current .056 quench distance, the effects of quench are barely there.
I have been looking at different head gaskets over the last few years. Every so often I am tempted to try this again. Dodgem got me thinking about it again.

The Fel Pro 1009:
4.410 bore .039 compressed. 9.7 cc volume 10.7 to 1 in my 493.
Fel Pro 1105:
4.590 bore .051 compressed. 13.7 cc volume 10.36 to 1
Edelbrock:
4.450 bore .038 compressed. 9.9 cc volume 10.74 to 1
The most interesting one is THIS:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/fog-900464520/overview/make/chrysler

The Flatout would lower my compression to 10.11 to one. Surely that would run on 91 octane.
I'm looking at all options still. Tomorrow I'll check fuel pressure AND run the 110 octane fuel.

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now its time to TUNE it. [Re: Kern Dog] #1492946
09/06/13 03:31 AM
09/06/13 03:31 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline OP
Striving for excellence
Kern Dog  Offline OP
Striving for excellence

Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Quote:

The "fire-ring" in the common Fel-Pro head gaskets isn't exactly round. Why they made them in this silly semi-oval design is beyond me. I went outside and laid a new 1009 Fel-Pro gasket on the deck of a .030 over 440 shortblock I have. The engine in my car is also a .030 440 block so I figure it is a fair mock-up. The quench side is up toward the intake side of the deck and the "fire-ring" does sit very close to the edge of the bore. I don't know if it would actually enter the bore after the head is torqued down but it does sit close.




I have a correction. The head gasket that I checked was a 7891 PT 11. It was in a gasket set I had in the parts shed. I'm not sure of the difference. These same gaskets may be in the engine now. I used gaskets included in the full gasket set.

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! [Re: Dodgem] #1492947
09/06/13 04:31 AM
09/06/13 04:31 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,607
Western Washington
Sixgun Offline
top fuel
Sixgun  Offline
top fuel

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,607
Western Washington
Quote:

the cam don't need bigger jets but 10% ethanol fuel requires 2 jet sizes
as ethanol fuel burns lean.





I actually DO live under a rock, but this is the first time I heard this.No kidding?All we have nowadays is the "up to 10% ethanol"crud, but I can get midgrade ethanol free at a cardlock station I belong to (for boats and such)
thanks for the info,makes sense.


I'm 55 now, no time to waste. Not a week goes by that I don't hear about someone passing on.Let's get out there,smoke some tires,have a beer with a good friend,do what you have always wanted to do.I am pretty sure no one will ever say on their deathbed "gee I'm glad my life was calm and boring"
Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! [Re: Sixgun] #1492948
09/06/13 04:35 AM
09/06/13 04:35 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline OP
Striving for excellence
Kern Dog  Offline OP
Striving for excellence

Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
My understanding of Ethanol is that ounce for ounce, it contains less energy than gasoline. It stands to reason that if there is Ethanol in the gasoline, there will be some loss of energy as a result. The "fix" is to use a greater amout of it to equal that of straight gasoline.

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now its time to TUNE it. [Re: Cab_Burge] #1492949
09/06/13 07:10 AM
09/06/13 07:10 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,309
Prospect, PA
BSB67 Offline
master
BSB67  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,309
Prospect, PA
Quote:

Try disconnecting the collectors so you can run it with open headers to see if that helps




I would suggest trying this as well.

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! [Re: Kern Dog] #1492950
09/06/13 09:42 AM
09/06/13 09:42 AM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,746
Ontario, Canada
Dodgem Offline
master
Dodgem  Offline
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Posts: 5,746
Ontario, Canada
How free flowing is your exhaust 3" with X pipe??

that number is a generic bb gasket set just be the cheaper head gasket.
But the problem exists with the 1009.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/fel-fs7891pt11


what heat range spark plugs you running I like C59CX think that equates to a nine on some foreign plug?? :-)


Your sure your not sucking oil past the intake gasket a little oil will make it detonate like crazy!

Last edited by Dodgem; 09/06/13 12:50 PM.
Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! [Re: Dodgem] #1492951
09/06/13 02:14 PM
09/06/13 02:14 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline OP
Striving for excellence
Kern Dog  Offline OP
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Quote:

How free flowing is your exhaust 3" with X pipe??



Your sure your not sucking oil past the intake gasket a little oil will make it detonate like crazy!





Good points. I have a 2.5" exhaust system with Flowmasters and tailpipes. NO H or X pipe. I've thought of stepping up to a 3" system.

I did see a bit of oil laying in the valley pan. I had some there at times with the 509 cam in place. I never thought that could be a problem sine I don't see any oil smoke coming from the car. I used Permatex on the intake bolts as usual, so I'm unsure of where it is getting there. Maybe I should pull the intake and valley pan to reseal it?

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! [Re: Kern Dog] #1492952
09/06/13 02:20 PM
09/06/13 02:20 PM
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,526
North Carolina
cjskotni Offline
pro stock
cjskotni  Offline
pro stock

Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,526
North Carolina
Quote:

Quote:

How free flowing is your exhaust 3" with X pipe??



Your sure your not sucking oil past the intake gasket a little oil will make it detonate like crazy!





Good points. I have a 2.5" exhaust system with Flowmasters and tailpipes. NO H or X pipe. I've thought of stepping up to a 3" system.

I did see a bit of oil laying in the valley pan. I had some there at times with the 509 cam in place. I never thought that could be a problem sine I don't see any oil smoke coming from the car. I used Permatex on the intake bolts as usual, so I'm unsure of where it is getting there. Maybe I should pull the intake and valley pan to reseal it?




Check the carb base plate. This could be from the carb to PCV vacuum line pulling oil mist. I get a couple of drops from my carb of oily slurry once in a while which drips on my intake. I know it's coming from the carb so this is all I can think off.

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! [Re: cjskotni] #1492953
09/06/13 02:23 PM
09/06/13 02:23 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline OP
Striving for excellence
Kern Dog  Offline OP
Striving for excellence

Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
My PCV hose was a bit of a loose fit to the nipple on the base of the carb. I cut about an inch from it and it fits tight now. I thought it may have contributed to a vacuum leak.

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! [Re: Kern Dog] #1492954
09/06/13 06:34 PM
09/06/13 06:34 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,746
Ontario, Canada
Dodgem Offline
master
Dodgem  Offline
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Posts: 5,746
Ontario, Canada
You have a Breather on the other valve cover i take it?

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! [Re: Dodgem] #1492955
09/06/13 06:57 PM
09/06/13 06:57 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline OP
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Kern Dog  Offline OP
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Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Quote:

You have a Breather on the other valve cover i take it?





The RH valve cover has a breather that is open air. The LH has a PCV valve ran to the base of the carb. I made an elaborate baffle that sits under the PCV valve to stop oil from splashing up and into it.

I rigged up a long 5/16" fuel hose to test the fuel pressure. I ran it forward through the core support and grille, then along the passenger fender. I ziptied it to the antenna and RH wiper arm, then taped the guage to the windshield. It sorta looked like something from "Back to the Future."
It reads 7-8 at idle. About the same at cruise. It drops a little at part throttle, maybe to a steady 7. At WOT it drops to about 5 but hasn't gone below that.
I was able to make 2 WOT runs without detonation, then it started in again. I ran it maybe 5 rimes @ WOT, but when it started pinging, I lifted a bit. I was able to go beyond 3/4 throttle without the knock. maybe I'm getting close. It was encouraging to have those 2 WOT runs without knocking. Maybe the cooler engine was more tolerant, or......
When I first went out to the car, I saw more oil laying in the valley pan. There is also a thin film on each head between the valve covers and the intake. I'm curious if the valve covers are leaking at the top or if oil is pushing UP from between the intake, valley tin and heads. The sides of the valve covers that face the intake are also a bit wet in the middle. There still has been no visible oil smoke from the exhaust, but I suspect that all it takes is a few drops of oil to make the engine ping. That much may not even be detectable in the exhaust stream.

First thing today, I checked the intake bolts ro see if they were tight enough. I was able to turn them 1/4 turn MORE. The FSM calls for 12 lbs, but I've always figured that a little more is better. It was directly after tightening them that I took the road test. The manifold vacuum at idle was up to 11.0, compared to 10.0 before.

I'm going to replace the valve cover gaskets since they already had a tiny leak at the back corners on each side. I'll check for any signs of additional leakage. I'm also going to replace the valley pan. I have 2 more new ones here. If I see any traces of oil on the heads or valley pan, I'll at least have that info to build from.
It was a shock the first WOT run without knocking. I was hoping that I had fixed it!

Last edited by Frankenduster; 09/06/13 09:59 PM.
Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! [Re: Kern Dog] #1492956
09/06/13 09:10 PM
09/06/13 09:10 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,746
Ontario, Canada
Dodgem Offline
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Dodgem  Offline
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Posts: 5,746
Ontario, Canada
Good luck. use plenty of silicone on the intake gaskets around the ports snug wait an hour tighten good heat cycle tighten again and periodicaly


Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! [Re: 340SHORTY] #1492957
09/06/13 09:55 PM
09/06/13 09:55 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline OP
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Granite Bay CA
I am embarrassed to admit that when I pulled the intake, there was oil film around the ports on the intake and valley pan. The walls of the intake ports have oil on them too. I pulled the valley pan. It is oily on the back sides of the ports and the heads have a thin film of oil on them too. I'm surprised at this because I sprayed Brakleen around the ports and the RPMs didn't change at all. Maybe the oil was getting sucked up from the lifter valley, under the valley pan?
The valley pan was installed without the paper gaskets. THIS time I'll use them on both sides. I have the thin ones that come with the Fel Pro full gasket set. They are about half the thickness of the Mr Gasket ones.
Years ago, I checked the intake on the bare heads to look for a misalignment. It seemed to sit squarely to each head.

After all this, wouldn't it be wacky if it came down to a poor seal at the intake?

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! [Re: Kern Dog] #1492958
09/06/13 10:10 PM
09/06/13 10:10 PM
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 508
Cincinnati, Ohio
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superbeedave Offline
mopar
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mopar
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Joined: May 2009
Posts: 508
Cincinnati, Ohio
I noticed on your post earlier you said your intake bolts were loose and only torqued 12 lbs. If this is correct you should be torqueing these to 25 ft lbs. I felt like I needed to jump in with everyone else!

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! [Re: Kern Dog] #1492959
09/06/13 10:11 PM
09/06/13 10:11 PM
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 452
Monrovia, So-Cal, USA
racerhog Offline
mopar
racerhog  Offline
mopar

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Posts: 452
Monrovia, So-Cal, USA
Thats not a good sign.....


Bob(Cowboy)Hogan
Monrovia So-Cal
Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! [Re: Kern Dog] #1492960
09/06/13 10:25 PM
09/06/13 10:25 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,309
Prospect, PA
BSB67 Offline
master
BSB67  Offline
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Posts: 4,309
Prospect, PA
Quote:

I'm surprised at this because I sprayed Brakleen around the ports and the RPMs didn't change at all. Maybe the oil was getting sucked up from the lifter valley, under the valley pan




This is why you use the choke method.

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now its time to TUNE it. [Re: Kern Dog] #1492961
09/06/13 10:49 PM
09/06/13 10:49 PM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,177
ill
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dennismopar73 Offline
top fuel
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top fuel
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,177
ill
So many things at play that causing his issues,
timing , valves could be caulded in the guid causing valves not to seat at closing , intake leak, , has more compression than he thinks he has, jetting carbs close to what I run even on alcohol,
Way to much stuff out of any norm , something just not right,
As I posted before keep at it it will show sooner rather than later!

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! [Re: BSB67] #1492962
09/06/13 11:29 PM
09/06/13 11:29 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline OP
Striving for excellence
Kern Dog  Offline OP
Striving for excellence

Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Quote:



This is why you use the choke method.




By "choke" do you mean put my hands around the choke/primary area? I did that yesterday and was able to stall the engine at idle.


What do you think of my fuel pressure?

Re: Cam break in is done!....Now more questions! [Re: Kern Dog] #1492963
09/07/13 02:10 AM
09/07/13 02:10 AM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,007
Bend,OR USA
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Cab_Burge Offline
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Cab_Burge  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,007
Bend,OR USA
All the FSM I have call for 35 to 45 Ft Lbs torque on the BB intake bolts, I use a inch lb wrench with a offset Crows foot( that what I call them, box end 3/8 drive extender with a 1.500 inch from center to center) and do the math for adding the extension on the torque setting 12 lbs won't even fatten out the stock steel embossing on the stock valey pan Tighten that rascal up Let us know what you find don't we hate Mr MURPHY


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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