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Re: Vibrating 360
[Re: RapidRobert]
#1490396
08/26/13 06:09 PM
08/26/13 06:09 PM
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Anonymous
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This is what the early version 360 damper looks like:
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Re: Vibrating 360
#1490397
08/26/13 06:11 PM
08/26/13 06:11 PM
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Anonymous
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Later version looks kinda like this (not sure if this is LA or Magnum, but it illustrates how the later ones have weight removed from one side instead of added to one side like the earlier ones):
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Re: Vibrating 360
[Re: dogdays]
#1490398
08/26/13 06:17 PM
08/26/13 06:17 PM
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Quote:
I, Carnak, will tell you your problem without even reading through RapidRobert's incredibly dense spewing wordforest.
Before you do anything else, find out what motor it is. Look at the front of the engine directly under the driver's side cylinderhead and find the engine ID number. Post that number here.
FORGET all talk of an internally balanced 360. If it had been done, someone would remember the $500+ balancing bill. It is NOT CHEAP to internally balance a 360 with stock internals. You need at least a couple slugs of Mallory and probably a lot more, and at $100 an inch it's EXPENSIVE! This is one case where it is definitely easier said than done.
Secondly, a 5.9Mag motor doesn't have a balance weight on the torque converter, it has the factory imbalance for the rear of the engine built into the flexplate.
Third, your picture shows a neutral balanced torque converter, never came behind a 360.
BUT, my "CHMSL third eye" tells me you have an LA 360. The "out-of-balance 360" post is probably the most common one in the whole history of Moparts.
It's possible that whatever doofus assembled the engine didn't know that the 318 damper and 360 damper were not the same. So check out that front damper and make sure it's for a 360. Clues are posted above. However, most engine shops don't have a pile of Mopar engine stuff lying around to mix up.
Once you have figured out that it's correct, and 2:1 it probably is, get an unbalanced flexplate (B&M is one source) for mounting a neutral balanced torque converter to an LA 360.
At this point your vibrating 360 problems should be over.
R. (Carnak)
OK, I edited my recent post and said my engine is a LA, see above.
I tried, using a mirror and a camera, look beyond the headers to get to see the ID stampings but I couldn't. The engine has 5 bolt valve covers (impossible to see the rockers through the oil filling hole) and the previous owner was pretty sure it is a LA engine so let's assume it is.
Just talked to the guy I got it from told me he got the TC from a 76 Volare.
I took the flexplate from a 75 or 76 LA 360. It had no visible weights and did look unbalanced in every way to me.
Hope my answer gets us closer!
70 W100 Power Wagon. 318 4-spd
70 Sport Fury 440 2dr HT
71 Duster 340
71 Charger Super Bee - 383/727
72 Charger "Sabotage" - 440/727 - Street/Strip
78 Warlock in beautiful patina
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Re: Vibrating 360
#1490399
08/26/13 06:19 PM
08/26/13 06:19 PM
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Quote:
Later version looks kinda like this (not sure if this is LA or Magnum, but it illustrates how the later ones have weight removed from one side instead of added to one side like the earlier ones):
413, my damper does not look like either one, it looks like the left on the picture that RapidRobert posted above.
Last edited by HP2; 08/26/13 06:21 PM.
70 W100 Power Wagon. 318 4-spd
70 Sport Fury 440 2dr HT
71 Duster 340
71 Charger Super Bee - 383/727
72 Charger "Sabotage" - 440/727 - Street/Strip
78 Warlock in beautiful patina
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Re: Vibrating 360
[Re: HP2]
#1490400
08/26/13 06:56 PM
08/26/13 06:56 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
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We have a neutral dampener up front. OE flexplates are neutral. You've spoken with the po/builder & did as much eng checking as you can. Unless you check further & find out if it is or is not a magnum then at this point in time I'd get another neutral (non 360) LA (non magnum) converter & try it.
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: Vibrating 360
[Re: HP2]
#1490401
08/26/13 07:03 PM
08/26/13 07:03 PM
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U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
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Quote:
Quote:
Later version looks kinda like this (not sure if this is LA or Magnum, but it illustrates how the later ones have weight removed from one side instead of added to one side like the earlier ones):
413, my damper does not look like either one, it looks like the left on the picture that RapidRobert posted above.
If that is the case then it has the wrong balancer on it .
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Re: Vibrating 360
[Re: RapidRobert]
#1490403
08/26/13 08:19 PM
08/26/13 08:19 PM
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Anonymous
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Quote:
Quote:
it looks like the left on the picture that RapidRobert posted above.
If that is the case then it has the wrong balancer on it .
That makes me wonder if an ext (360) dampener was supposed to be on up front & if the weights were left as is on the rear TC if all would have been good in the 'hood in other words if the front dampener was the only mistake but we had no way of knowing that (when the weights came off) & nobody in their right mind would sub in an ext dampener for an int dampener (or vice versa) on an eng that ain't going to be subjected to a complete teardown/weighing/balancing
I'd be checking now to make sure the motor is actually a 360. Might be a 318 or 340. If it is a 360, then maybe the last guy to actually run it just didn't notice the vibration. Hard to believe, I know, but some people really are oblivious.
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Re: Vibrating 360
[Re: HP2]
#1490405
08/27/13 06:53 AM
08/27/13 06:53 AM
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Finally I got to talk with Steve, the guy who had it in his Challanger for two years. He bought the car on ebay from someone who didn't know anything about the engine. Steve states it ran great with no vibes and nothing weird, he said it actually ran smoother than most of the cars he has owned. He is an experienced car guy with lots of different projects in the past such as turbo and supercharged engines both for street and track so I guess we can trust what he says.
I got to check my engine closer today and there is no longer any question, it is a LA 360.
Since the flywheel Steve used was unbalanced the engine should not vibrate with an unbalanced TC but it does, so I guess something is wrong with the TC.
I was wondering because I'm planning to replace my 904 with a 46RH and I need to gather parts for the swap.
70 W100 Power Wagon. 318 4-spd
70 Sport Fury 440 2dr HT
71 Duster 340
71 Charger Super Bee - 383/727
72 Charger "Sabotage" - 440/727 - Street/Strip
78 Warlock in beautiful patina
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Re: Vibrating 360
[Re: dogdays]
#1490407
08/27/13 04:53 PM
08/27/13 04:53 PM
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Quote:
SO WHAT IS THE ENGINE ID NUMBER? Yes, I'm yelling. "Steve" didn't build the engine, I do not conclude that he knows exactly what it is. So get the freakin' number!
THE TORQUE CONVERTER YOU SHOWED US IS FOR AN INTERNALLY BALANCED ENGINE!
Again, yes, I'm yelling. You don't seem to be paying a lot of attention to what people are saying.
The engine ID number will confirm that it's a mid-70's 360 or whatever it is.
If that's the case it needs the harmonic damper/balancer from a 360 (not 5.9 Mag) hanging off the front of the engine, and an externally balanced torque converter assembly hanging off the back.
The converter assembly can either be a neutral balanced converter with an unbalanced flexplate, or an externally balanced converter with neutral flexplate.
R.
I'm very sorry, the car is not at my house and then I had a hard time to get to see the numbers, but with a camera and my wifes make up mirror I think the freaking number is: 3418496-7-360
I also took a closer look a my damper and I am convinced it is an unbalanced one I have, and it has not been replaced since Steve had the engine.
I repeat; it vibrated badly with the two heavy weights on either side of the drain plug (TC from a 75-76 Volare). I took the weights off and it got better, but it still vibrates. You can notice it when it idles if you pay attention, then, of course, it gets worse at higher revs.
Engine is pretty weak below 2,000 so I will need a higher stall converter but I had this one and wanted to get to drive the engine so I could find out what it's like before I order a new TC for my tranny 906 to 518 swap. And yes, in neutral and park also.
It has a RPM intake, a vacuum Holley and MSD 6AL and MSD distributor that's the only things I can tell.
70 W100 Power Wagon. 318 4-spd
70 Sport Fury 440 2dr HT
71 Duster 340
71 Charger Super Bee - 383/727
72 Charger "Sabotage" - 440/727 - Street/Strip
78 Warlock in beautiful patina
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Re: Vibrating 360
[Re: HP2]
#1490408
08/27/13 08:31 PM
08/27/13 08:31 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,376
dogdays
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The number your wife found is the block's casting number. It indicates that this block was from the first series of 360 blocks cast from 1971 to 1974. These blocks were cast using 340 cores so the cylinder walls are thicker and should be able to withstand a 4.070" bore, with sonic test up to 4.100".
So I don't think the engine is a '76.
You don't know what's in the engine unless you research the numbers or built it yourself.
Now you need to find the engine ID number. Stand at the front of the car, looking directly back in the direction of the steering wheel. You're on the driver's side, your knees are against the bumper.
Look at the valve cover, follow the surface down the front edge of the head until you get to the gap where the head gasket is clamped between head and block. Now go down about another half-inch. The Engine ID number is stamped here. The numbers aren't very big and may be obscured by paint.
Let's suppose the engine is a 1972 360 built on October 31, 1971. The engine ID number will be something like this:
HM360R1031xxxxE.
H = 1972 model year
M = Mounds Road engine plant
360 = guess what?
R = Regular gas, or P means Premium, or it may be missing entirely, I cannot remember.
1031 means Halloween
xxxx is the engine sequence number, for that day
E means it had a cast crank, all 360s have cast cranks.
So what does yours say?
R.
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Re: Vibrating 360
[Re: HP2]
#1490409
08/27/13 09:45 PM
08/27/13 09:45 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,974
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
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Quote:
Quote:
SO WHAT IS THE ENGINE ID NUMBER? Yes, I'm yelling. "Steve" didn't build the engine, I do not conclude that he knows exactly what it is. So get the freakin' number!
THE TORQUE CONVERTER YOU SHOWED US IS FOR AN INTERNALLY BALANCED ENGINE!
Again, yes, I'm yelling. You don't seem to be paying a lot of attention to what people are saying.
The engine ID number will confirm that it's a mid-70's 360 or whatever it is.
If that's the case it needs the harmonic damper/balancer from a 360 (not 5.9 Mag) hanging off the front of the engine, and an externally balanced torque converter assembly hanging off the back.
The converter assembly can either be a neutral balanced converter with an unbalanced flexplate, or an externally balanced converter with neutral flexplate.
R.
I'm very sorry, the car is not at my house and then I had a hard time to get to see the numbers, but with a camera and my wifes make up mirror I think the freaking number is: 3418496-7-360
I also took a closer look a my damper and I am convinced it is an unbalanced one I have, and it has not been replaced since Steve had the engine.
I repeat; it vibrated badly with the two heavy weights on either side of the drain plug (TC from a 75-76 Volare). I took the weights off and it got better, but it still vibrates. You can notice it when it idles if you pay attention, then, of course, it gets worse at higher revs.
Engine is pretty weak below 2,000 so I will need a higher stall converter but I had this one and wanted to get to drive the engine so I could find out what it's like before I order a new TC for my tranny 906 to 518 swap. And yes, in neutral and park also.
It has a RPM intake, a vacuum Holley and MSD 6AL and MSD distributor that's the only things I can tell.
How well do you know this STEVE ??? If it's a cast crank 360 then it should have a weighted balancer unless as was said above someone spent a lot of money to have it neutral balanced .
Since putting a neutral convertor on it didn't make it stop vibrating , even though it was less that it did wit hthe weighted convertor , you need to 2 one of 2 things ...
1 put a 360 balancer on it
OR
2 , pull the pan and look at the crank to see if it has mallory added , it will be very obvious . Other wise you risk damaging the engine by running it ...
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Re: Vibrating 360
[Re: dogdays]
#1490410
08/28/13 05:44 AM
08/28/13 05:44 AM
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 10,847
Oakdale CT
gdonovan
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Quote:
Secondly, a 5.9Mag motor doesn't have a balance weight on the torque converter, it has the factory imbalance for the rear of the engine built into the flexplate.
This is NOT true.
I have one sitting in my garage that came out of a van with a weighted torque converter.
Chrysler did at some point go to the flexplate with the weight on it but its a false statement to make indicating all 5.9 magnums came with it. Best thing to do is simply check the date on the block.
Looking at the heads will get you in trouble, you can run some LA heads on early magnum blocks.
Check the date and check to see if there is a crank trigger mounting pad on the back of the block.
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Re: Vibrating 360
[Re: dogdays]
#1490411
08/28/13 06:41 AM
08/28/13 06:41 AM
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 523
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HP2
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Quote:
The number your wife found is the block's casting number. It indicates that this block was from the first series of 360 blocks cast from 1971 to 1974. These blocks were cast using 340 cores so the cylinder walls are thicker and should be able to withstand a 4.070" bore, with sonic test up to 4.100".
So I don't think the engine is a '76.
You don't know what's in the engine unless you research the numbers or built it yourself.
Now you need to find the engine ID number. Stand at the front of the car, looking directly back in the direction of the steering wheel. You're on the driver's side, your knees are against the bumper.
Look at the valve cover, follow the surface down the front edge of the head until you get to the gap where the head gasket is clamped between head and block. Now go down about another half-inch. The Engine ID number is stamped here. The numbers aren't very big and may be obscured by paint.
Let's suppose the engine is a 1972 360 built on October 31, 1971. The engine ID number will be something like this:
HM360R1031xxxxE.
H = 1972 model year
M = Mounds Road engine plant
360 = guess what?
R = Regular gas, or P means Premium, or it may be missing entirely, I cannot remember.
1031 means Halloween
xxxx is the engine sequence number, for that day
E means it had a cast crank, all 360s have cast cranks.
So what does yours say?
R.
The camera is useful and with a scraper on my newly painted engine  I got this: The first letter is very vague but it could be a G, then W360R35270347. No letter after the last 7 though.
70 W100 Power Wagon. 318 4-spd
70 Sport Fury 440 2dr HT
71 Duster 340
71 Charger Super Bee - 383/727
72 Charger "Sabotage" - 440/727 - Street/Strip
78 Warlock in beautiful patina
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Re: Vibrating 360
[Re: JohnRR]
#1490412
08/29/13 06:43 AM
08/29/13 06:43 AM
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 523
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
SO WHAT IS THE ENGINE ID NUMBER? Yes, I'm yelling. "Steve" didn't build the engine, I do not conclude that he knows exactly what it is. So get the freakin' number!
THE TORQUE CONVERTER YOU SHOWED US IS FOR AN INTERNALLY BALANCED ENGINE!
Again, yes, I'm yelling. You don't seem to be paying a lot of attention to what people are saying.
The engine ID number will confirm that it's a mid-70's 360 or whatever it is.
If that's the case it needs the harmonic damper/balancer from a 360 (not 5.9 Mag) hanging off the front of the engine, and an externally balanced torque converter assembly hanging off the back.
The converter assembly can either be a neutral balanced converter with an unbalanced flexplate, or an externally balanced converter with neutral flexplate.
R.
I'm very sorry, the car is not at my house and then I had a hard time to get to see the numbers, but with a camera and my wifes make up mirror I think the freaking number is: 3418496-7-360
I also took a closer look a my damper and I am convinced it is an unbalanced one I have, and it has not been replaced since Steve had the engine.
I repeat; it vibrated badly with the two heavy weights on either side of the drain plug (TC from a 75-76 Volare). I took the weights off and it got better, but it still vibrates. You can notice it when it idles if you pay attention, then, of course, it gets worse at higher revs.
Engine is pretty weak below 2,000 so I will need a higher stall converter but I had this one and wanted to get to drive the engine so I could find out what it's like before I order a new TC for my tranny 906 to 518 swap. And yes, in neutral and park also.
It has a RPM intake, a vacuum Holley and MSD 6AL and MSD distributor that's the only things I can tell.
How well do you know this STEVE ??? If it's a cast crank 360 then it should have a weighted balancer unless as was said above someone spent a lot of money to have it neutral balanced .
Since putting a neutral convertor on it didn't make it stop vibrating , even though it was less that it did wit hthe weighted convertor , you need to 2 one of 2 things ...
1 put a 360 balancer on it
OR
2 , pull the pan and look at the crank to see if it has mallory added , it will be very obvious . Other wise you risk damaging the engine by running it ...
I know Steve much enough to believe what he says when he states that he drove his Challenger 2 years without vibrations. I will get to see the flywheel he used myself this weekend so I can check if is unbalanced or not.
So if the flywheel is for an internally balanced crank and since the balancer also seems to be for an internally balanced crank the conclusion must be that my crank is internally balanced, right? The only way to find out is to drop the pan and look but I don't have the time to do it now. When winter comes and I put it on my lift to do the tranny swap it will be easier to lift the engine and drop the pan, but I rather don't mess with it. Is there no other way to find out? Well maybe I could put the flywheel on and start it...
So, what do the ID number tell us?
70 W100 Power Wagon. 318 4-spd
70 Sport Fury 440 2dr HT
71 Duster 340
71 Charger Super Bee - 383/727
72 Charger "Sabotage" - 440/727 - Street/Strip
78 Warlock in beautiful patina
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Re: Vibrating 360
[Re: HP2]
#1490413
08/29/13 12:27 PM
08/29/13 12:27 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,376
dogdays
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GM360R
1971 model year
Mounds Road
360
regular gas (not a surprise, the 1971 360 was built as a larger version of the 318, only available as a regular fuel 2-barrel engine
I was wrong about the date, the next four digits (3527) are a Chrysler 10,000 day date code, commonly misnamed julian date. Anyway, your engine was built near the end of the 1971 model year.
"Day 3527 is Thursday, March 25, 1971"
Post a picture of the flywheel, both sides.
Has anyone out there used a borescope to look at a crankshaft through the oil drain hole? If the crankshaft has been neutral balanced, there WILL be slugs of mallory metal in the counterweights.
This is sounding like a very nice engine, at least the basis for one.
R.
Last edited by dogdays; 08/29/13 12:41 PM.
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Re: Vibrating 360
[Re: dogdays]
#1490414
06/23/14 10:28 AM
06/23/14 10:28 AM
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Hi folks, I thought I should tell you how this worked out, it's always good to get the end of the story  I put the flywheel on an old mechanical wheel balancing machine to find out how it's been balanced, and how much and also where. It turned out to be about 57 grams (2 oz) and IIRC that is about half of the 360" balance weight. It is also located differently, instead of being right where the drain plug is, it is located clockwise to the next hole where the flexplate bolts up. I fabbed two weights of 1 oz (one on each side of the bolt mount) and welded them in place. No vibrations!  I have no idea why it is like it is, but it works. The harmonic damper seems to be an "unbalanced" one. After this summer I will install an A518  and then I'll know what to weld on.
70 W100 Power Wagon. 318 4-spd
70 Sport Fury 440 2dr HT
71 Duster 340
71 Charger Super Bee - 383/727
72 Charger "Sabotage" - 440/727 - Street/Strip
78 Warlock in beautiful patina
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. Look at the top of the block deck on the front DR side just below the head gasket/head junction & the cid will be stamped there in real small numbers like on a trans pan rail but smaller yet & without the smoothed background that's on the trans. Wire brush it clean & you have to get you nose right in there close to see what it is
