Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 2 of 2 1 2
Re: Roller rockers for the long term investment [Re: MoparforLife] #1449700
06/10/13 02:38 PM
06/10/13 02:38 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,376
D
dogdays Offline
I Live Here
dogdays  Offline
I Live Here
D

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,376
Those of us who have been reading you for years know of your dislike of roller rockers and 2.02 intake valves in smallblocks. All well and good, but if the bearing was PROPERLY SPECIFIED, it will last for a long long time.

R.

Re: Roller rockers for the long term investment [Re: MoparforLife] #1449701
06/10/13 02:49 PM
06/10/13 02:49 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 8,828
Ontario, Canada
S
Stanton Offline
Don't question me!
Stanton  Offline
Don't question me!
S

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 8,828
Ontario, Canada
Quote:

Trouble with the needle bearing whether on the tip or the felcrum is that the load is only on one side and they rock back and forth.




Oh, and a bushing is different because it rotates ?!?!? NOT !!!

Bushings or bearings on the fulcrum could be debated for years with no solid evidence that one is better than the other on a rocker of equal quality. However, a roller tip will absolutely have less friction and wear that a non-roller tip. In this case, Isky got it right with hardened inserts but I have seen many Cranes where the valve stem has worn a groove into the tip.

Re: Roller rockers for the long term investment [Re: Stanton] #1449702
06/10/13 03:42 PM
06/10/13 03:42 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 25,200
Upper Midwest
M
MoparforLife Offline
Too Many Posts
MoparforLife  Offline
Too Many Posts
M

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 25,200
Upper Midwest
Quote:

Quote:

Trouble with the needle bearing whether on the tip or the felcrum is that the load is only on one side and they rock back and forth.




Oh, and a bushing is different because it rotates ?!?!? NOT !!!

Bushings or bearings on the fulcrum could be debated for years with no solid evidence that one is better than the other on a rocker of equal quality. However, a roller tip will absolutely have less friction and wear that a non-roller tip. In this case, Isky got it right with hardened inserts but I have seen many Cranes where the valve stem has worn a groove into the tip.


did not mean to infer that but the needle wear leads to failure sooner than a bushing would fail. Ever chased a bunch of little needles around through an engine and seen the damage that they can do????


Clean it, if it's Dirty. Oil it, if it Squeaks. But: Don't fix it, if it Works!
Re: Roller rockers for the long term investment [Re: dogdays] #1449703
06/10/13 03:45 PM
06/10/13 03:45 PM
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,521
Tacoma, Washington USA
A
Adam71Charger Offline OP
pro stock
Adam71Charger  Offline OP
pro stock
A

Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,521
Tacoma, Washington USA
Quote:

Those of us who have been reading you for years know of your dislike of roller rockers and 2.02 intake valves in smallblocks. All well and good, but if the bearing was PROPERLY SPECIFIED, it will last for a long long time.

R.




What does properly specified mean?

Re: Roller rockers for the long term investment [Re: Adam71Charger] #1449704
06/10/13 04:19 PM
06/10/13 04:19 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 8,828
Ontario, Canada
S
Stanton Offline
Don't question me!
Stanton  Offline
Don't question me!
S

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 8,828
Ontario, Canada
Means its rated for the loads its going to handle - has the proper length and width and diameter - except in this case the diameter has been dictated by Chrysler

Re: Roller rockers for the long term investment [Re: ahy] #1449705
06/10/13 05:27 PM
06/10/13 05:27 PM
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,521
Tacoma, Washington USA
A
Adam71Charger Offline OP
pro stock
Adam71Charger  Offline OP
pro stock
A

Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,521
Tacoma, Washington USA
Quote:

Comp pro magnum are plain bearing rockers. No roller bearings on the shaft but roller tip. Geometry "over the tip" on my BB was excellent. there are no fatigue concerns with extended use as with aluminum rockers . The only drawback is a tendency to gall the shafts with high lifts and spring pressures. With lift under .6" shouldn't be a problem.




I just figured that out about the bearings being in the tip side of the rocker, not the shaft. I talked to comp cams, they say the rockers are bushed with a 'bronze like' materiel and can handle up to 650lbs open pressure. I really like the fact that they are steel.. and I thought the issue with galling was taken care of by having bushings in the rocker?

Re: Roller rockers for the long term investment [Re: Adam71Charger] #1449706
06/10/13 05:50 PM
06/10/13 05:50 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,444
So Cal
autoxcuda Offline
Too Many Posts
autoxcuda  Offline
Too Many Posts

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,444
So Cal
Quote:

Quote:

Comp pro magnum are plain bearing rockers. No roller bearings on the shaft but roller tip. Geometry "over the tip" on my BB was excellent. there are no fatigue concerns with extended use as with aluminum rockers . The only drawback is a tendency to gall the shafts with high lifts and spring pressures. With lift under .6" shouldn't be a problem.




I just figured that out about the bearings being in the tip side of the rocker, not the shaft. I talked to comp cams, they say the rockers are bushed with a 'bronze like' materiel and can handle up to 650lbs open pressure. I really like the fact that they are steel.. and I thought the issue with galling was taken care of by having bushings in the rocker?




The have lots of area for oil flow too.

7737852-1_16_11Sm02.JPG (54 downloads)
Re: Roller rockers for the long term investment [Re: Adam71Charger] #1449707
06/10/13 05:56 PM
06/10/13 05:56 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 8,828
Ontario, Canada
S
Stanton Offline
Don't question me!
Stanton  Offline
Don't question me!
S

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 8,828
Ontario, Canada
Just like any engine bearing, you want a material that is soft enough to absorb some debris rather than damage the mating surface. Bronze will do this and although aluminum is also soft and will absorb debris, the aluminum may be so soft that the debris stays loose enough to float around and cause the aluminum to gall. Its the only explanation I can think of.

Re: Roller rockers for the long term investment [Re: dogdays] #1449708
06/10/13 06:34 PM
06/10/13 06:34 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 25,200
Upper Midwest
M
MoparforLife Offline
Too Many Posts
MoparforLife  Offline
Too Many Posts
M

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 25,200
Upper Midwest
Quote:

Those of us who have been reading you for years know of your dislike of roller rockers and 2.02 intake valves in smallblocks. All well and good, but if the bearing was PROPERLY SPECIFIED, it will last for a long long time.

R.


Go to hughes sight if you don't believe me. http://www.hughesengines.com/TechArticles/3rockerarms282007.php
Here is an excerpt:The rockers only rock in a small arc of approximately 25 or 30. If the rocker or the shaft actually rotated the needles would live longer. Here again is a conundrum. The smaller needles spread the load over more needles, but they are more fragile you just cant win! Some of the roller rockers even have needle rollers in the roller at the tip of the rocker. The unit loading is very high with needle bearings. All these extra parts are just more points of potential failure.
It isn't fun and games looking for needles in an engine when one comes apart. Seen it happen more than once.
As for the 2.02 valves I have nothing against them in the right application. Personally 1.88's have fit me better and given me better ET's. Also friends have gone from 2.02's back to 1.88's for more torque out of the turns on thier dirt tracker. To each there own.

Re: Roller rockers for the long term investment [Re: MoparforLife] #1449709
06/10/13 06:54 PM
06/10/13 06:54 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,888
Athens, Greece
Pyper70 Offline
master
Pyper70  Offline
master

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,888
Athens, Greece
I had bought the infamous "needle bearing" type from 440 Source thinking it was a good purchase. I heard about meltdown due to those needle bearings and didn't want to be a statistic. I sold them and got my money back, put the money towards Harlands. I bought them from Todd at CompWedge (a member here on this board) I told him my setup (apparently the Eddy heads require some extra machine work which he provided) They bolted right on, no shimming, no guess work. FWIW, you do have to take them apart, just take a picture and put it back that same way. You have to let them soak in oil for a day or so then bolt on to the heads. I am honestly very happy with them but I only have about 1000 miles on the motor since the install....



Family owned 1969 Charger R/T DualQuad 440/727/GVO/3.55s
Re: Roller rockers for the long term investment [Re: Adam71Charger] #1449710
06/10/13 09:37 PM
06/10/13 09:37 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,664
IN
A
ahy Offline
master
ahy  Offline
master
A

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,664
IN
Quote:

Quote:

Comp pro magnum are plain bearing rockers. No roller bearings on the shaft but roller tip. Geometry "over the tip" on my BB was excellent. there are no fatigue concerns with extended use as with aluminum rockers . The only drawback is a tendency to gall the shafts with high lifts and spring pressures. With lift under .6" shouldn't be a problem.




I just figured that out about the bearings being in the tip side of the rocker, not the shaft. I talked to comp cams, they say the rockers are bushed with a 'bronze like' materiel and can handle up to 650lbs open pressure. I really like the fact that they are steel.. and I thought the issue with galling was taken care of by having bushings in the rocker?




Yep. Sounds like they made it better with the bushing. Great rocker.

Re: Roller rockers for the long term investment [Re: ahy] #1449711
06/10/13 10:45 PM
06/10/13 10:45 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 8,828
Ontario, Canada
S
Stanton Offline
Don't question me!
Stanton  Offline
Don't question me!
S

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 8,828
Ontario, Canada
I bought my Harland Sharps in 1993. They haven't changed a thing since. If there were problems with them don't you thick they'd have addressed the issue by now ?!?!?!

Re: Roller rockers for the long term investment [Re: Stanton] #1449712
06/10/13 11:02 PM
06/10/13 11:02 PM
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,521
Tacoma, Washington USA
A
Adam71Charger Offline OP
pro stock
Adam71Charger  Offline OP
pro stock
A

Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,521
Tacoma, Washington USA
Quote:

I bought my Harland Sharps in 1993. They haven't changed a thing since. If there were problems with them don't you thick they'd have addressed the issue by now ?!?!?!




Thats impressive.. is this a street motor?

Re: Roller rockers for the long term investment [Re: Adam71Charger] #1449713
06/11/13 09:54 AM
06/11/13 09:54 AM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 8,828
Ontario, Canada
S
Stanton Offline
Don't question me!
Stanton  Offline
Don't question me!
S

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 8,828
Ontario, Canada
Been on 3 street motors. All low milage mind you.

Re: Roller rockers for the long term investment [Re: Stanton] #1449714
06/28/13 05:21 AM
06/28/13 05:21 AM
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,521
Tacoma, Washington USA
A
Adam71Charger Offline OP
pro stock
Adam71Charger  Offline OP
pro stock
A

Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,521
Tacoma, Washington USA
I went with comp magnum rockers. They just arrived today. Im pretty happy with the rockers themselves, but Im wondering if I should send back the shafts.. are these scuffs normal? Are they going to cause problems? When i got the box, nothing was secured inside, everything was just banging around haphazardly like a lego set.


Re: Roller rockers for the long term investment [Re: Adam71Charger] #1449715
06/28/13 05:26 AM
06/28/13 05:26 AM
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,521
Tacoma, Washington USA
A
Adam71Charger Offline OP
pro stock
Adam71Charger  Offline OP
pro stock
A

Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,521
Tacoma, Washington USA
Rockers feel pretty solid. I can't tell what they are bushed with, the material is a lot thinner than I thought it would be, and it doesn't look like bronze.



Re: Roller rockers for the long term investment [Re: Adam71Charger] #1449716
06/28/13 04:52 PM
06/28/13 04:52 PM
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 3,544
Syracuse,NY
CompWedgeEngines Offline
master
CompWedgeEngines  Offline
master

Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 3,544
Syracuse,NY
The Comps are nice little rockers for street duty. Make sure the clearance is right bewteen shaft and bushings. My understanding was Comp was nitriding the shafts, hence the color. I had got some of their shafts when they first started, and I wouldnt call them the beefiest shaft out there, but absolutley fine for their intended useage. That little bit of flaking is nothing to worry about. Making sure they are sized or clearance well is whats important. The Comps are nice too because of the reverse cup style adjuster, which makes pushrod selection way way easier.

As far as the roller vs solid vs bushing debate, well, it all makes great topic of conversation, but in the end, real world results trump all. I have used and repaired every brand imaginable for Mopars especially, and they have all had success when used in the right application.I will say that again, the RIGHT application. Many times rockers are chosen by price point rather than reason. That will almost always result in unsatisfactory results. If a rocker is run dry, it will fail, If a roller is run dry, it will fail. If a spring pressure is too great, it will fail. If shafts are put on wrong, it will fail. It shafts are of the wrong hardness for the corresponding rocker material, it will fail. You get the idea.

I have run Harland Sharp rockers ( same sets) for over 20 years in race cars without failure. I have ran Crane Golds for over 15 years without failures ( other than screws being soft). I have ran Comp Pro Magnums on street engines with great results. I have just started trying the Hughes rockers on Stock Eliminator cars,and I am pleased with them . I think they are a good value, and geometry was good.
My opinion is there is some mis information in this post, and in the end, you need to determine what is important in your own build, and take action accordingly. My feeling, based on almost 30 years of this, is rockers are NOT a good place to take short cuts, and offshore rockers are not a wise investment. My


RIP Monte Smith

Your work is a reflection of yourself, autograph it with quality.

WD for Diamond Pistons,Sidewinder cylinder heads, Wiseco, K1 rods and cranks,BAM lifters, Morel lifters, Molnar Technologies, Harland Sharp, Pro Gear, Cometic, King Engine Bearings and many others.
Re: Roller rockers for the long term investment [Re: Adam71Charger] #1449717
06/28/13 05:07 PM
06/28/13 05:07 PM
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 30,253
Florida STAYcation
dIc dOc Deity ! Offline
The village idiot's idiot
dIc dOc Deity !  Offline
The village idiot's idiot

Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 30,253
Florida STAYcation


...what is the going rate on BUSHING(and correcting the ratio) of a set of iron adjustables ? ....I have 2 sets ... just wondering ...

Re: Roller rockers for the long term investment [Re: dIc dOc Deity !] #1449718
06/28/13 11:01 PM
06/28/13 11:01 PM
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,521
Tacoma, Washington USA
A
Adam71Charger Offline OP
pro stock
Adam71Charger  Offline OP
pro stock
A

Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,521
Tacoma, Washington USA
I think these will work perfectly for my application.

Page 2 of 2 1 2






Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1