Roller rockers for the long term investment
#1449680
06/09/13 04:14 AM
06/09/13 04:14 AM
|
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,521 Tacoma, Washington USA
Adam71Charger
OP
pro stock
|
OP
pro stock
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,521
Tacoma, Washington USA
|
I've read a lot of posts on this forum and others about roller rockers. I've also talked to my machine shop and hughes, harland sharp and mancini. My budget is about $800. My lift should stay at .600 or under. The car will be wide open throttle as much as possible but will be a street driven car. Im looking for the best, most durable, longest lasting rockers in my price range.
From what Ive heard and read, Im leaning towards the hughes aluminum and Im interested to know if the cryo freezing is just a gimmick or if it's all they say it is. I almost went with the comp ultra pro magnum steel rockers but I read on their site they are needle bearing type and Im shy to that type. My other option was the crane ductile aluminum, but I read the new ones are not built as well as the old style. Then, there is the Mancini labeled harland sharps, they are the best price out of all of these, but havent heard from anyone who's used them. Am I missing any? I have no experience with any of these setups, and havent seen any recent threads on them... anything new or changed with any of these rockers that I haven't read about already?
|
|
|
Re: Roller rockers for the long term investment
[Re: Stanton]
#1449685
06/09/13 06:58 PM
06/09/13 06:58 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,937 U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
|
I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,937
U.S.S.A.
|
Quote:
Personally I would never run a rocker that wasn't either bronze bushed or roller bearing. I don't like running aluminum on a steel shaft - seen too many cases of galling. I don't know what your concern would be with rollers bearings. As for cryo treatment ... it works. Whether its needed or worth the expense is entirely personal.
If you go with an alum body rocker bronze bushed is the best , get banana groove shafts also.
|
|
|
Re: Roller rockers for the long term investment
[Re: Adam71Charger]
#1449687
06/09/13 08:05 PM
06/09/13 08:05 PM
|
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,899 MYRTLE BEACH SOUTH CAROLINA
ek3
top fuel
|
top fuel
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,899
MYRTLE BEACH SOUTH CAROLINA
|
Quote:
I've read a lot of posts on this forum and others about roller rockers. I've also talked to my machine shop and hughes, harland sharp and mancini. My budget is about $800. My lift should stay at .600 or under. The car will be wide open throttle as much as possible but will be a street driven car. Im looking for the best, most durable, longest lasting rockers in my price range.
From what Ive heard and read, Im leaning towards the hughes aluminum and Im interested to know if the cryo freezing is just a gimmick or if it's all they say it is. I almost went with the comp ultra pro magnum steel rockers but I read on their site they are needle bearing type and Im shy to that type. My other option was the crane ductile aluminum, but I read the new ones are not built as well as the old style. Then, there is the Mancini labeled harland sharps, they are the best price out of all of these, but havent heard from anyone who's used them. Am I missing any? I have no experience with any of these setups, and havent seen any recent threads on them... anything new or changed with any of these rockers that I haven't read about already?
nothing beats stainless... I have run the same crower enduros on a gm engine for 10 years @ 1:65 and 1:7 ratios with no issues ever .7500 rpm oval track punishment at that. bent plenty of valves but never had a rocker failure.
|
|
|
Re: Roller rockers for the long term investment
[Re: RSNOMO]
#1449689
06/09/13 11:16 PM
06/09/13 11:16 PM
|
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,521 Tacoma, Washington USA
Adam71Charger
OP
pro stock
|
OP
pro stock
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,521
Tacoma, Washington USA
|
Quote:
After the 'customer service' I observed from Hughes several years ago, they wouldn't get a dime from me...
HS...
They wernt very friendly w/me when I called, and seemed pretty annoyed when I asked some technical question about their products. But I've never heard a bad thing about their rockers
|
|
|
Re: Roller rockers for the long term investment
[Re: Stanton]
#1449690
06/09/13 11:23 PM
06/09/13 11:23 PM
|
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,521 Tacoma, Washington USA
Adam71Charger
OP
pro stock
|
OP
pro stock
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,521
Tacoma, Washington USA
|
Quote:
Personally I would never run a rocker that wasn't either bronze bushed or roller bearing. I don't like running aluminum on a steel shaft - seen too many cases of galling. I don't know what your concern would be with rollers bearings. As for cryo treatment ... it works. Whether its needed or worth the expense is entirely personal.
My concern with roller bearings is longevity. It seems like most of the forces on the rocker arm would be concentrated on only some of the bearings and would wear them faster than the others. I was very interested in getting steel or iron rockers and getting them bushed, but I've only read about 1 place that does it, RAS, and I have no idea if they still do it or if its even the same company or owner
|
|
|
Re: Roller rockers for the long term investment
[Re: ahy]
#1449691
06/09/13 11:25 PM
06/09/13 11:25 PM
|
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,521 Tacoma, Washington USA
Adam71Charger
OP
pro stock
|
OP
pro stock
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,521
Tacoma, Washington USA
|
Quote:
The Comp cast alloy steel "pro magnum" rockers may be just right for your application. Durable and work well as shipped up to about .6" lift. Higher lifts and pressures benefit from a bushing. I'm running a set on a 496 with .55 lift and no problems.
See I thought these were solid rockers that could be bushed, but they are actually needle bearing rockers
|
|
|
Re: Roller rockers for the long term investment
[Re: Adam71Charger]
#1449693
06/09/13 11:35 PM
06/09/13 11:35 PM
|
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,943 San Angelo, Texas, U.S.A.
1968RR
top fuel
|
top fuel
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,943
San Angelo, Texas, U.S.A.
|
Quote:
Quote:
The Comp cast alloy steel "pro magnum" rockers may be just right for your application. Durable and work well as shipped up to about .6" lift. Higher lifts and pressures benefit from a bushing. I'm running a set on a 496 with .55 lift and no problems.
See I thought these were solid rockers that could be bushed, but they are actually needle bearing rockers
I was planning on buying Comp's Pro Magnum rockers a few years ago, but decided against them because (if I remember correctly) they're bushed and DON'T have needle bearings. I could be wrong, though... I ended up going with Harland Sharps. The guys on the race board swear by them and I haven't had any problems with them so far. But I would be sure to make sure clean and inspect any new rockers you buy for shavings (but especially the Harland Sharps).
"When I'm in a slump, I comfort myself by saying if I believe in dinosaurs, then somewhere, they must be believing in me. And if they believe in me, then I can believe in me." - Mookie Wilson
|
|
|
Re: Roller rockers for the long term investment
[Re: ek3]
#1449694
06/09/13 11:58 PM
06/09/13 11:58 PM
|
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 8,020 Pangaea
B5 Bee
master
|
master
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 8,020
Pangaea
|
Quote:
the neddle bearing rockers will never wear out . they will carry any load "you" plan to put on them. get a set like the crower enduro's in STAINLESS STEEL and never buy another set.
This advice won't help. He's looking for shaft rockers so he must have a SB or BB. The only rockers Crower makes for Mopars are for the stud mount V8 Magnum and V10.
|
|
|
Re: Roller rockers for the long term investment
[Re: Adam71Charger]
#1449696
06/10/13 03:42 AM
06/10/13 03:42 AM
|
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 216 E. Okla line
m88mark
enthusiast
|
enthusiast
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 216
E. Okla line
|
Quote:
Quote:
Personally I would never run a rocker that wasn't either bronze bushed or roller bearing. I don't like running aluminum on a steel shaft - seen too many cases of galling. I don't know what your concern would be with rollers bearings. As for cryo treatment ... it works. Whether its needed or worth the expense is entirely personal.
My concern with roller bearings is longevity. It seems like most of the forces on the rocker arm would be concentrated on only some of the bearings and would wear them faster than the others. I was very interested in getting steel or iron rockers and getting them bushed, but I've only read about 1 place that does it, RAS, and I have no idea if they still do it or if its even the same company or owner
I think RAS is Rocker Arms Unlimited now.
|
|
|
Re: Roller rockers for the long term investment
[Re: m88mark]
#1449697
06/10/13 12:28 PM
06/10/13 12:28 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 339 Gilroy,CA.
mopardude318
enthusiast
|
enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 339
Gilroy,CA.
|
I have 2 sets of Hughes Roller rockers. 1.5's on my hot street 318 for 2 years now, 4000 miles. No issues.
1.6's on my 408. They are a very good rocker. Hughes customer service has always been good to me...
408 Stroker 533 HP 520 FT LBS...........................1970 Dart RMS AlterKation
|
|
|
Re: Roller rockers for the long term investment
[Re: MoparforLife]
#1449701
06/10/13 02:49 PM
06/10/13 02:49 PM
|
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 8,852 Ontario, Canada
Stanton
Don't question me!
|
Don't question me!
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 8,852
Ontario, Canada
|
Quote:
Trouble with the needle bearing whether on the tip or the felcrum is that the load is only on one side and they rock back and forth.
Oh, and a bushing is different because it rotates ?!?!? NOT !!!
Bushings or bearings on the fulcrum could be debated for years with no solid evidence that one is better than the other on a rocker of equal quality. However, a roller tip will absolutely have less friction and wear that a non-roller tip. In this case, Isky got it right with hardened inserts but I have seen many Cranes where the valve stem has worn a groove into the tip.
|
|
|
Re: Roller rockers for the long term investment
[Re: dogdays]
#1449703
06/10/13 03:45 PM
06/10/13 03:45 PM
|
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,521 Tacoma, Washington USA
Adam71Charger
OP
pro stock
|
OP
pro stock
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,521
Tacoma, Washington USA
|
Quote:
Those of us who have been reading you for years know of your dislike of roller rockers and 2.02 intake valves in smallblocks. All well and good, but if the bearing was PROPERLY SPECIFIED, it will last for a long long time.
R.
What does properly specified mean?
|
|
|
Re: Roller rockers for the long term investment
[Re: ahy]
#1449705
06/10/13 05:27 PM
06/10/13 05:27 PM
|
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,521 Tacoma, Washington USA
Adam71Charger
OP
pro stock
|
OP
pro stock
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,521
Tacoma, Washington USA
|
Quote:
Comp pro magnum are plain bearing rockers. No roller bearings on the shaft but roller tip. Geometry "over the tip" on my BB was excellent. there are no fatigue concerns with extended use as with aluminum rockers . The only drawback is a tendency to gall the shafts with high lifts and spring pressures. With lift under .6" shouldn't be a problem.
I just figured that out about the bearings being in the tip side of the rocker, not the shaft. I talked to comp cams, they say the rockers are bushed with a 'bronze like' materiel and can handle up to 650lbs open pressure. I really like the fact that they are steel.. and I thought the issue with galling was taken care of by having bushings in the rocker?
|
|
|
Re: Roller rockers for the long term investment
[Re: Adam71Charger]
#1449706
06/10/13 05:50 PM
06/10/13 05:50 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,451 So Cal
autoxcuda
Too Many Posts
|
Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,451
So Cal
|
Quote:
Quote:
Comp pro magnum are plain bearing rockers. No roller bearings on the shaft but roller tip. Geometry "over the tip" on my BB was excellent. there are no fatigue concerns with extended use as with aluminum rockers . The only drawback is a tendency to gall the shafts with high lifts and spring pressures. With lift under .6" shouldn't be a problem.
I just figured that out about the bearings being in the tip side of the rocker, not the shaft. I talked to comp cams, they say the rockers are bushed with a 'bronze like' materiel and can handle up to 650lbs open pressure. I really like the fact that they are steel.. and I thought the issue with galling was taken care of by having bushings in the rocker?
The have lots of area for oil flow too.
|
|
|
Re: Roller rockers for the long term investment
[Re: dogdays]
#1449708
06/10/13 06:34 PM
06/10/13 06:34 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 25,200 Upper Midwest
MoparforLife
Too Many Posts
|
Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 25,200
Upper Midwest
|
Quote:
Those of us who have been reading you for years know of your dislike of roller rockers and 2.02 intake valves in smallblocks. All well and good, but if the bearing was PROPERLY SPECIFIED, it will last for a long long time.
R.
Go to hughes sight if you don't believe me. http://www.hughesengines.com/TechArticles/3rockerarms282007.php Here is an excerpt:The rockers only rock in a small arc of approximately 25 or 30. If the rocker or the shaft actually rotated the needles would live longer. Here again is a conundrum. The smaller needles spread the load over more needles, but they are more fragile you just cant win! Some of the roller rockers even have needle rollers in the roller at the tip of the rocker. The unit loading is very high with needle bearings. All these extra parts are just more points of potential failure. It isn't fun and games looking for needles in an engine when one comes apart. Seen it happen more than once. As for the 2.02 valves I have nothing against them in the right application. Personally 1.88's have fit me better and given me better ET's. Also friends have gone from 2.02's back to 1.88's for more torque out of the turns on thier dirt tracker. To each there own.
|
|
|
Re: Roller rockers for the long term investment
[Re: Adam71Charger]
#1449710
06/10/13 09:37 PM
06/10/13 09:37 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,664 IN
ahy
master
|
master
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,664
IN
|
Quote:
Quote:
Comp pro magnum are plain bearing rockers. No roller bearings on the shaft but roller tip. Geometry "over the tip" on my BB was excellent. there are no fatigue concerns with extended use as with aluminum rockers . The only drawback is a tendency to gall the shafts with high lifts and spring pressures. With lift under .6" shouldn't be a problem.
I just figured that out about the bearings being in the tip side of the rocker, not the shaft. I talked to comp cams, they say the rockers are bushed with a 'bronze like' materiel and can handle up to 650lbs open pressure. I really like the fact that they are steel.. and I thought the issue with galling was taken care of by having bushings in the rocker?
Yep. Sounds like they made it better with the bushing. Great rocker.
|
|
|
Re: Roller rockers for the long term investment
[Re: Stanton]
#1449712
06/10/13 11:02 PM
06/10/13 11:02 PM
|
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,521 Tacoma, Washington USA
Adam71Charger
OP
pro stock
|
OP
pro stock
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,521
Tacoma, Washington USA
|
Quote:
I bought my Harland Sharps in 1993. They haven't changed a thing since. If there were problems with them don't you thick they'd have addressed the issue by now ?!?!?!
Thats impressive.. is this a street motor?
|
|
|
Re: Roller rockers for the long term investment
[Re: Adam71Charger]
#1449716
06/28/13 04:52 PM
06/28/13 04:52 PM
|
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 3,544 Syracuse,NY
CompWedgeEngines
master
|
master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 3,544
Syracuse,NY
|
The Comps are nice little rockers for street duty. Make sure the clearance is right bewteen shaft and bushings. My understanding was Comp was nitriding the shafts, hence the color. I had got some of their shafts when they first started, and I wouldnt call them the beefiest shaft out there, but absolutley fine for their intended useage. That little bit of flaking is nothing to worry about. Making sure they are sized or clearance well is whats important. The Comps are nice too because of the reverse cup style adjuster, which makes pushrod selection way way easier. As far as the roller vs solid vs bushing debate, well, it all makes great topic of conversation, but in the end, real world results trump all. I have used and repaired every brand imaginable for Mopars especially, and they have all had success when used in the right application.I will say that again, the RIGHT application. Many times rockers are chosen by price point rather than reason. That will almost always result in unsatisfactory results. If a rocker is run dry, it will fail, If a roller is run dry, it will fail. If a spring pressure is too great, it will fail. If shafts are put on wrong, it will fail. It shafts are of the wrong hardness for the corresponding rocker material, it will fail. You get the idea. I have run Harland Sharp rockers ( same sets) for over 20 years in race cars without failure. I have ran Crane Golds for over 15 years without failures ( other than screws being soft). I have ran Comp Pro Magnums on street engines with great results. I have just started trying the Hughes rockers on Stock Eliminator cars,and I am pleased with them . I think they are a good value, and geometry was good. My opinion is there is some mis information in this post, and in the end, you need to determine what is important in your own build, and take action accordingly. My feeling, based on almost 30 years of this, is rockers are NOT a good place to take short cuts, and offshore rockers are not a wise investment. My
RIP Monte Smith
Your work is a reflection of yourself, autograph it with quality.
WD for Diamond Pistons,Sidewinder cylinder heads, Wiseco, K1 rods and cranks,BAM lifters, Morel lifters, Molnar Technologies, Harland Sharp, Pro Gear, Cometic, King Engine Bearings and many others.
|
|
|
|
|