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Hey Gene,

I've been going contemplating the conversion from 727 to tremec in my '70 Dart for a couple of years now. I think I may have finally gotten up the nerve (and the money), but I'm still troubled by the need to cut the torsion bar x-member. Any chance you could post a worm's eye view of how much cutting is necessary on the A-body? Have there been any changes in the kit (fit-wise) since the days of the Green Brick conversion?

Hoping to be soon.

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Hello Matt,

We have made some mods to the trans in the area for the torsion bar crossmember.This has reduced the need in many cars. We still see guys having to notch the torsion bar member but it is small. There is some differences in cars and condition also plays a part in this as well.

I think I just did a little dance around your question.

Unfortunately there is no rhyme or reason for this.

So with a little bit of this you will be able to do alot of this

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We have made some mods to the trans in the area for the torsion bar crossmember.This has reduced the need in many cars. We still see guys having to notch the torsion bar member but it is small. There is some differences in cars and condition also plays a part in this as well.

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Gene, I know every car is different but are you saying SOME A-body installs can now be accomplished without notching the x-member? Just wondering, I'm not asking you to predict either way on my particular car.

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Gene,
Thanks for the invite. I do appreciate it. However, the last time I did that it only got me into a HUGE "discussion" on this board that ended up getting the post locked and started a whole bunch of hard feelings. So, that being said, thank you, but I thought it better to not bother you guys. If I remember, wasn't there a guy there anyway? I didn't want to interrupt you.

Now to some math:

Here is my biggest problem with you guys saying that the ratios in our trans are so wide.

1st to 2nd gear change is 1.07 in our unit. It is 1.00 in yours. Maybe I am out in left field, but I really don't call that tremendously different.

2nd to third gear change is .59 in our unit. It is .61 in your unit. So, you are actually wider there. Again, I am not going to say that you are tremendously wide either. But in fairness, I never claimed that you were.

3rd to 4th is .20 in our unit and .28 in yours. AGAIN, WIDER!!!!!!

Yes, you have a 4th to 5th gear shift. However, when talking ratios, that is not relevant.

In my opinion, the ONLY thing that you guys have over us is a taller OD. Which is fine, however, it seems to me that strength might be compromised by doing this. That is why we didn't make a steeper OD. We were concerned about making the stongest unit we could. Regardless, I have not personally had ANYONE call me complaining that the OD was not enough.

Now, I know the story of the transmission fixture breaking at 1400 lb/ft of torque, but lets be serious, if this were the case, a tremec trans would be virtually IMPOSSIBLE to break. I think that we both know that his isn't the case. I find it wierd that if they can take 1400 lb/ft of torque, then why are they rated at LESS THAN HALF of that number???? I know this, If my unit could take 1400 lb/ft of torque, I sure as heck would not rate it at less than half of its capabilites.

By the same token, I am not saying that one of our units is unbreakable. BUT, I am quite confident that it will take more than 600 lb of torque.


Lets look at another aspect here.

Howabout how steep your 1st gear is?

The final drive ratio in each gear is calculated by multiplying the transmission gear ratio by the rear end ratio. I picked a generic ratio that is a good rear ratio in a car that is a candidate for an overdrive. So, lets do some more math.

Your first gear: 2.89 X 4.10 = 11.84 final drive
Our first gear: 2.66 X 4.10 = 10.90 final drive

That is a .94 difference. The way that you guys talk about how crappy our ratios are, this is a MONUMENTAL difference in gear ratios. No wonder why no one mentions it. So, why isn't anyone pointing this out??????? It seems like a relevant point to me.

Let me also say, there is not personal attack here at all. It is simple math. I am just amazed at how you guys "gloss over" the tremec's shortcomings and point out that our unit has such a horribly wide gear spread. The fact is: IT DOESN'T.




Jamie

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Better watch out guys!....the waaambulance is just around the corner


Seriously, Keisler and Passon make GREAT products and offer GREAT service!.......and it's different strokes for different fokes.....the about gear spreads is rather ......I personally enjoy the Keisler gear ratios, esp the .64 OD.....there's nothing out there to compare with this!....nothing!


Of course Keisler gets my "Kudos" all day!.....but if I was building a totaly stock appearing 4spd car.....I'd go with a Passon box, for the ability of an OD in a stock case.......but again, it comes down to what the owner has in store for his/her car.......a forum pissing match really isn't going to sway a customers finial decision

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a forum pissing match really isn't going to sway a customers finial decision

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From situations I've seen in the past between vendors, this is relatively pretty civil.

But worse than a pissing contest is teasing and namecalling. I don't think either position/party in this thread needs to result to that yet. It just turns off customers from making any decision.

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Better watch out guys!....the waaambulance is just around the corner

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Why don't the snake charmers come out with a customer service policy of satisfaction guaranteed or your money back?? It is supposed to be a perfect fit product so why not?? The truth is the product is not a perfect fit and they are snakes. Snakes slither last I checked...

For over 6 yrs now we have talked constantly about the lack of customer service and fitment problems, along with no reasonable return policy whatsoever. Threads have been locked, people have gone to swap meets and confronted the snake charmers Nothing has changed except for some paid promotion from some blind customers.





Tom,.....I've seen your posts for many years, and while I can't speak on Keisler's behalf, I can only expound my experiences with them,...regarding their Customer service, I've never had any problems getting assistance when needed, wether it be verbal assistance or a part replaced, or exchanged,......I don't know what you mean by a "resasonable" return policy,....perhaps you should elaborate?.......and I'm neither paid nor compensated by Keisler for any "promotion",....and last I checked, my vision was 20/20 both eyes, hindsight not included!


Overheard at a swap meat at the snake charmer school swap spot...

They sent him the wrong flywheel(he has a cast crank).



Tom, I had this same problem with Keisler, Hays, and Summit, and PAW as well......guess what, a simple call, it was returned and replaced

The master cyl for hydraulic clutch was bad.


I've had this problem ONCE with Keisler, in their "defense", they don't make the master, merely offer it,.....but guess what, a phone call later, a replacement was on the way

The trans was jambed and had to be 'broken in' before street driving,


Not too sure what your trying to convey here?....but if your refereing to the intial break in period, yes the Keisler TKO 5 spd is "balky" in 1st and reverse gear for about the first 2-300 miles, after that shifting is no longer a problem,......I take it, you had to crawl before walking also

The sheet metal supplied for conversion was a poor attempt


Yes!,...in full agreement with you Tom, a factory style hump should be supplied with the kit, if not the customer should be made aware of the need for one

The shifter sucked and buzzed(subsequently fixed by having to replace the shifter mechanism),



On some applications, many years ago, the first generation shifter tower would exhibit a "buzzsaw" vibration at certain speeds/ RPM's.....The issuse has been eliminated with the Keisler 3rd generation shift tower, if I recall in some past threads, Richard at Keisler went out of his way to replace any readers/posters on Moparts who had old shift towers with new 3rd generation shifters if they requested for no charge

The adapter for shifter supplied was poor quality.


Yes, some of the early adapters were aluminum, and would not hold up to prolonged use, I've experienced that myself, and conveyed my concerns to Keisler, guess what.....a steel/ improved replacement(s) were issued, no charge

The customer berated the head snake to death calling him derogatory names and commenting on his ineptness when it comes to PROPERLY engineering product...




Well Tom,....I've VOLUNTEERED (meaning no pay or compensation Tom) my time/ effort at manning a quite a few Keisler venues around the east/mid coast shows, Mopar, and multi-make, also displaying my products, equipped with Keislers TKO and plus4 Auto applications,........never once experienced any "distraught" customers,....I'm not saying it didn't happen, but I would think the old saying,...."You can get more with honey, than ".....goes a long way for either one involved, anyone who runs any business has had to deal with an irate customer, regards of who's right or wrong

And once thought only unique to unrestored purple AAR cuda's...drumroll please...The driveline angles were way off...


Well....Tom, if your installing any item into a vehicle, that it wasn't intended for, regardless of wether it's promoted as "bolt in",...."perfect fit", etc. etc.....I myself would be very diligent in making sure that the installation was proper, and if the driveline needed to be "re-phased",....so be it, there's a lot of variables between applications, that can't be addressed, or known about, until the part(s) are in the field,.....regarding driveline angles, I often find, it's the owner who is addimantly against modifing the crossmember, or floor to properly phase a driveline if needed,.....granted most people are ill-equipped for fabrication, they lack the tools/ and/or knowledge,....I've corrected a few ill attempts of some of my customers "home" Keisler installs that were the direct result of installtion errors, or not having a "working" knowledge of a driveline, it's componets, and proper installation,.....they were always quick to blame Keisler, but blind to their own shortcomings

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I've run all three overdrive tranys, I feel the Passon one is by far the best. Gearvenders is a force to recon with if you have a heavy car that makes unreal power they are the only way to go. Now if you want to collect a bunch of broken ford mustang tranys, by a Keisler. A Keisler is fine behind a gutless small block. As far as service, Jamie is the man, and with Keisler, a stop at your local junkyard should beable to hook you up with parts. So yes I will run a Passon trany again, and I will run gearvenders again, got one in my moterhome.

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Your comment dosen't hold much "water"