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Re: Keisler 5spd or Passon 4spd O/D opinions?
[Re: Ludington1]
#144685
11/03/08 08:29 AM
11/03/08 08:29 AM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,465
Answering the call of the wild
ThermoQuad
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,465
Answering the call of the wild
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I don't know if you have a clue or not, looks like you have a nice looking Plymouth and you made it to track day. Are you famous?
I'd consider myself just knowledgeable enough about my old car to be slightly dangerous when I start any project. I installed my TKO-600 from Keisler over about 3-4 days and it seems to me that it went in and works "as-advertised"... and I'll admit that I haven't a clue what I am doing, with old cars or just about anything for that matter.
Darren 
Thanks for making my day Darren!!! 
I have made it to road course track days many many times in the last 15 yrs with the AAR. I have owned it 28 yrs & it always had a 4 speed. Over the last 7 yrs I have run a Passon 4 speed. Quality goes in before the name goes on!!! 1st a 2.66 1st gear fine spline iron 4 sp for 3 yrs and and now a passon aluminum OD 4 sp. I have thousands of miles on the od unit now and thousands of smiles. I have put almost 100,000 miles on the AAR. The car runs low 12's with ease and hits 130 mph on the road course all day long. Just ask the guy in the WRX what happens....
The reason I commented "I have no clue what i am doing" is because as former snake charmer customer my car and credibility were viciously attacked when i came forward with legitimate engineering issues with the product which made it unsafe at any speed. Rather than be men and admit fault they tried to stick me with the product and that mopar tech guru who used to be a good friend of mine helped them do it. I prevailed eventually or rather the bank prevailed for me. I do know what I am doing as the car will outrun/drive most cars on the road and many on the road course. There are wayyyyyy too many problems still with the snake charmers product for the cost and heaven help you if you have a problem and need immediate parts and or assistance.
Infamous not famous...
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Re: Keisler 5spd or Passon 4spd O/D opinions?
[Re: ThermoQuad]
#144686
11/03/08 08:52 AM
11/03/08 08:52 AM
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Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 3,072
Farmland, IN
Ludington1
master
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master
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 3,072
Farmland, IN
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Good stuff Tom, glad I could help! Looks and sounds like a nice car, mine is just above beater status and I usually do everything twice... First time to learn how to NOT do it, and the second time I can get pretty close.
I don't have any doubts at all that the Passon trans is great, I can say that adding OD, regardless of what product, has made my car even more fun to drive. In my case the Keisler TKO went in with no problems, I was almost suspicious because I DIDN'T have to do it twice! Hopefully I have continued good luck with it and the Mopar world will have several vendors with constantly improving products to choose from when it comes to OD.
Keep kickin butt on the track, I haven't started chasing WRXs yet but I wasted a Civic hatchback and a diesel Silverado on the turnpike.
Darren
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Re: Keisler 5spd or Passon 4spd O/D opinions?
[Re: ThermoQuad]
#144687
11/03/08 09:04 AM
11/03/08 09:04 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,947
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,947
U.S.S.A.
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Quote:
Infamous not famous...
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Re: Keisler 5spd or Passon 4spd O/D opinions?
[Re: JohnRR]
#144688
11/03/08 11:57 AM
11/03/08 11:57 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 43,512
Round Lake Beach, Illinoisy
Rhinodart
Rhinotruck
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Rhinotruck
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 43,512
Round Lake Beach, Illinoisy
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I cannot comment on the Keisler, but I have driven 5 cars with the Passon and love it! Jamie is indeed a great guy with customer service second to none. The cars I have driven with his trans are a 68 Dart 5.7 Hemi, 2-68 Hemi Darts, one with 720 rear wheel horsepower, a 71 Cuda with a 6.1 Hemi, and a 71 Challenger with a 6.1 Hemi. I have driven plenty of cars with TKO's and enjoy the way they work though. It really depends alot on your skill level also, the Passon is truely a bolt-in if you already have a 4-speed, and uses all factory components if you don't. 
The funny thing about science is that if you change one miniscule parameter you change the entire outcome to the way you want it.
JB Rhinehart, Realist
A-Body's RULE!
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Re: Keisler 5spd or Passon 4spd O/D opinions?
[Re: ThermoQuad]
#144689
11/04/08 09:37 AM
11/04/08 09:37 AM
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 227
Tennessee
rj8806
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 227
Tennessee
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Tom: I cannot speak as to what you encountered back when you attemtped to use a Keisler 5 speed kit, I wasn't here. Obviously you had some issues and it didn't turn out well. On behalf of us, I apologise.  Things here are alot different these days as compared to what they were back when you tried the install. Since I started working here back in Jan. 2005, I am customer service/tech support and I have worked really hard to make us 100% customer service oriented. I bend over backwards everyday to help our customers and even those of you not our customers but still looking for tech help. I have given out my personal phone number for customers to call me at nights and on weekends when they need help the most. It is a never ending process here as we grow and learn from mistakes in the past. The bottom line is an overdrive will transform the car. Jamie Passon is a great option for those of you whose gearing is more suited to the ratios in his transmissions. He definitely makes a great product and it is based on the A833 so the install should be a slam dunk. He is definitely a knowledgeable, positive force in the Mopar world. The TKO kit will offer a little more overdrive and a little different gearing set. For some, the gearing is not a perfect fit for their needs, for others, it is a perfect way to go. Yes, the TKO swap will require some modification. We all know the TKO box is bigger in size than a A833. There's just no way around it. In most cases, the E-body cars(4 speed) don't have to cut anything and the TKO will fit in there perfectly. The A body cars will definitely have to modify the floor tunnel. The 4 speed B body guys ('66-'70) will only have to relocate the shifter opening in the floor for the TKO tower to come up thru it. Our shifter adapter piece will still allow the shifter handle to come up thru the orginal console where it was designed to be. All other Mopars, will require some modification in order to get a TKO up in the tunnel. Let's face it, Mopars were not designed to have a TKO but Keisler has made it possible. The main thing to remember is a 5 speed overdrive will transform the car and allow you to cruise in it like it was meant to be. Richard Tech Support
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Re: Keisler 5spd or Passon 4spd O/D opinions?
[Re: NV69B7RR]
#144691
11/07/08 09:28 PM
11/07/08 09:28 PM
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 869
Sugarloaf, PA. USA
JamiePasson
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 869
Sugarloaf, PA. USA
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First,
Let me say that I appreciate EVERYONE'S input. We are a firm believer that people should make an "EDUCATED" decision. Even if it is not our product. Money comes too hard these days. As for the statement that our transmission and the Keisler tremec kit costs about the same, I think I may have to disagree with you there. I have not spoken to ANYONE to date that has put a Tremec from Keisler in their car for less than $3800.00. Lets not talk about the "base kit." This does not matter what the base kit costs. What matters is the end cost. PERIOD. "How much are you going to have in the car when you put it in first gear and it moves."
We made the final drive .80:1 for a reason. STRENGTH. In order to get a deeper overdrive, the mainshaft gear would have needed to be smaller. This would have significantly weakened the unit. The way I looked at it was... Why put out another transmission that has a deeper overdrive, but can't handle the power? We were concerned with maintaining SUPERIOR strength in this unit. I feel that we have achieved that. As for too wide of a gear spread, one of our test cars is my '72 Barracuda. It is a BONE stock small block car. 340, stock manifolds, 2 1/4 inch exhaust, theroquad. It has F70-14 polyglas tires on it. The car is by no means a powerhouse. It will smoke the tires, all the way trhough first, second and into third with this unit in it. NOW, if the gear spread was too wide, I am fairly confident that it would show up in this car due to its lack of power. But, whatever the case. As for final drive. Keep one thing in mind. More overdrive is not always better for gas mileage. If you are lumbering along on the highway at 2000 rpm on the transition circuit of your carburetor, you are surely going to get worse mileage. So, choose carefully. If you have a 4.10 rear in your car. It drops it down to a 3.28 with our unit. If anyone needs any info, let me know.
Thanks,
Jamie
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Re: Keisler 5spd or Passon 4spd O/D opinions?
[Re: JamiePasson]
#144692
11/07/08 10:20 PM
11/07/08 10:20 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,402
Wichita,KS
Blakcharger440
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,402
Wichita,KS
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Quote:
First,
Let me say that I appreciate EVERYONE'S input. We are a firm believer that people should make an "EDUCATED" decision. Even if it is not our product. Money comes too hard these days. As for the statement that our transmission and the Keisler tremec kit costs about the same, I think I may have to disagree with you there. I have not spoken to ANYONE to date that has put a Tremec from Keisler in their car for less than $3800.00. Lets not talk about the "base kit." This does not matter what the base kit costs. What matters is the end cost. PERIOD. "How much are you going to have in the car when you put it in first gear and it moves."
We made the final drive .80:1 for a reason. STRENGTH. In order to get a deeper overdrive, the mainshaft gear would have needed to be smaller. This would have significantly weakened the unit. The way I looked at it was... Why put out another transmission that has a deeper overdrive, but can't handle the power? We were concerned with maintaining SUPERIOR strength in this unit. I feel that we have achieved that. As for too wide of a gear spread, one of our test cars is my '72 Barracuda. It is a BONE stock small block car. 340, stock manifolds, 2 1/4 inch exhaust, theroquad. It has F70-14 polyglas tires on it. The car is by no means a powerhouse. It will smoke the tires, all the way trhough first, second and into third with this unit in it. NOW, if the gear spread was too wide, I am fairly confident that it would show up in this car due to its lack of power. But, whatever the case. As for final drive. Keep one thing in mind. More overdrive is not always better for gas mileage. If you are lumbering along on the highway at 2000 rpm on the transition circuit of your carburetor, you are surely going to get worse mileage. So, choose carefully. If you have a 4.10 rear in your car. It drops it down to a 3.28 with our unit. If anyone needs any info, let me know.
Thanks,
Jamie
For some reason I cant find the 833 Hemi OD unit on your website. I would like to know how much one of these units cost and if you also sell it as a gear set only deal if someone wanted to go that route. Thanks.
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Re: Keisler 5spd or Passon 4spd O/D opinions?
[Re: JamiePasson]
#144694
11/07/08 11:52 PM
11/07/08 11:52 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,041
MD
RTSE4ME
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,041
MD
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Quote:
First,
Let me say that I appreciate EVERYONE'S input. We are a firm believer that people should make an "EDUCATED" decision. Even if it is not our product. Money comes too hard these days. As for the statement that our transmission and the Keisler tremec kit costs about the same, I think I may have to disagree with you there. I have not spoken to ANYONE to date that has put a Tremec from Keisler in their car for less than $3800.00. Lets not talk about the "base kit." This does not matter what the base kit costs. What matters is the end cost. PERIOD. "How much are you going to have in the car when you put it in first gear and it moves."
I put the Keisler kit in for $3450. The only additional items purchased was a disc and T/O bearing. If you really want an apples to apples comparison the costs you would need to compare are the cost of the Passon aluminum case 4sp with the Keisler kit.
In the end I don't think cost is the real factor in deciding between the 2. A few hundred either way is not going to make a difference to me when spending over 3 grand on a trans. I think the fitment issues and intended use is more critical in making a decision.
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Re: Keisler 5spd or Passon 4spd O/D opinions?
[Re: JamiePasson]
#144699
11/10/08 12:50 PM
11/10/08 12:50 PM
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Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 211
Tennessee
Keisler Sales
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Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 211
Tennessee
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Quote:
I disagee with the comparison of apples to apples being our aluminum unit to the Tremec. Have you checked the weight? Our CAST IRON trans weighs 120 lbs. The Tremec in ALUMINUM weighs like 118 lbs if I am not mistaken. Our ALUMINUM unit weighs 85 lbs. SO, if you want to compare aluminum to aluminum, we are WAY lighter than the Tremec.
Well I see we have a busy thread coming back from Sema had a great show and a good time.
Actually for your information the TKO with shifter only weighs 99 lbs.
I also want to note that I have done some comparison and quotes. I actually had a couple of customers that received quotes from you to do a auto to manual conversion and you were more money.
The biggest difference is the gear ratios and spacing of the gears.
Scott,
As far as the comment about strength I don't think there is a real difference.
Shifting the TKO is not sluggish. I am going to consider the source of that comment. There is a bit of a learning curve some of us haven't mastered when it comes to shifting a trans.
It's funny to me when you drove a couple of Matt Delany's cars with our product on Power tour and were selling our product a couple of years ago you were nothing but complimentary.
The TKO shifters have at the base at the most 1/4 to 1/2 throw which equates to about 3 to 4.5 inches depending on what handle you have. The shifters are positive and smooth. The trans does have a rpm shift limit typically around 6k rpm.
Keisler Engineering www.keislerauto.com#1 Choice of Overdrive Transmissions with Over 14,000 Sold
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Re: Keisler 5spd or Passon 4spd O/D opinions?
[Re: Keisler Sales]
#144700
11/10/08 02:25 PM
11/10/08 02:25 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 42,714
Spokane Washington
ScottSmith_Harms
Mr Wizzard
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Mr Wizzard
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 42,714
Spokane Washington
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Quote:
Scott,
As far as the comment about strength I don't think there is a real difference.
Shifting the TKO is not sluggish. I am going to consider the source of that comment. There is a bit of a learning curve some of us haven't mastered when it comes to shifting a trans.
It's funny to me when you drove a couple of Matt Delany's cars with our product on Power tour and were selling our product a couple of years ago you were nothing but complimentary.
Gene,
I think my comments were nothing but honest & fair, I didn't bash anyone, just compared based on my personal experience. I gave nothing but my (unbiased) opinions after driving the various transmission combos mentioned in my post.
Matt's were not the only cars I've driven with Kiesler installs, and I understand that at least one of those installs needed some adjustments in order for it to shift better, I gave those a "pass" based on that. Also, concerning my experience as a "shifter", I had plenty after spending several days driving those cars on the power Tour, it wasn't like a simple spin around the block. That being said, I noticed the same shifting experience with other Kiesler equipped cars which were well sorted combos, not to mention that nearly every car I've owned and driven for the past 30 years (drag and street use) were stick cars, I'd say I'm as good or better than most at rowing a manual trans car. Bottom line is that I have PLENTY of shifting experience, they simply don't shift as fast as an 833 IMO. My durability comparsions were based on the limits you guys suggest compared with the limits of an 833 which I've experienced.
And yes, although I have sold (a grand total of 2) of your units in the past, I do not currently sell yours or anyone else's products. I will be kind and skip the reasons why on this forum, but if you think back you'll probably be able to figure that out as you were my primary sales contact. Feel free to give me a call if you want to discuss any of this.
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Re: Keisler 5spd or Passon 4spd O/D opinions?
[Re: Keisler Sales]
#144701
11/10/08 06:59 PM
11/10/08 06:59 PM
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Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 10,551
Rittman Ohio
fourgearsavoy
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 10,551
Rittman Ohio
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Gene I will go on record as never installing one of your units,but to compare an internal rail type of shifter to an external Hurst or Long shifter is apples to oranges.You will never be able to shift an internal shifter as fast as an external shifter. It will always be more "slugish" than an 833 transmission. Gus 
64 Plymouth Savoy
493 Indy EZ's by Nick at Compu-Flow
5-Speed Richmond faceplate Liberty box
Dana 60
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Re: Keisler 5spd or Passon 4spd O/D opinions?
[Re: DAYCLONA]
#144702
11/10/08 07:32 PM
11/10/08 07:32 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,157
Mass
DAYCLONA
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,157
Mass
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Wheres the Whaaaaambulance when you need it! .....The Keisler vs who or whatever threads will go on forever here, and on other forums, Chevy Ford or Mopar.........regarding this thread, if you want your car to look original, go Passon, you don't like 5, or 6 gears, go Passon, you want to reuse your original componets, go Passon........simple However, you want a smoother shifting gear box,....run a Keisler, you want to run some really tall gears, and not be restricted to the streets,....run a Keisler, you want to see some phenomenal gas mileage....run a Keisler......as far as reliability, anything will break if abused, be it Factory, Keisler, Passon. Doug Nash, Lenco, CRT,...etc,etc All I know is, I've been dealing with Keisler for about a decade now,....and yet to have any issuse regarding service,parts, products, etc......any customer's car (smblks to HEMI's) that I've either assisted or completely installed a Keisler transmission into,....usually repeats the prior customers comment...."I'll never go back to a 4 spd".....my sentiments exactly,....I personally would never contemplate a Chrysler 4 spd ever again.....I started driving nothing but Chryslers 30+ yrs ago, (and still do) manuals and autos 64's-on up......but after a drive, about a decade ago in a Keisler equipped car,....there's been nothing in my opinion to equal it......... And no I don't work for Keisler, or get free "stuff", .......I just support Shafi, Gene, Richard,...and the team that builds and supports a great product!
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Re: Keisler 5spd or Passon 4spd O/D opinions?
[Re: fourgearsavoy]
#144703
11/10/08 07:50 PM
11/10/08 07:50 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,157
Mass
DAYCLONA
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,157
Mass
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Quote:
Gene I will go on record as never installing one of your units,but to compare an internal rail type of shifter to an external Hurst or Long shifter is apples to oranges.You will never be able to shift an internal shifter as fast as an external shifter.
It will always be more "slugish" than an 833 transmission.
Gus
I'd have to disagree with ya Gus,....I have a Keisler TKO .64OD 5 spd in my Tona' with a 70 B body pistol grip shifter, the throws with the Keisler, even with the 70 B body console pistol grip are akin to the throws in the shorty E body pistol grip,..... shifting an original 4spd 70 B body pistol grip is like rowing a boat!
I have had the opertunity to equip a lot of different Mopars with Keislers, the throw distance is remarkably less with the Keisler,......And once a driver has "broken" his old habits of trying to slam the shifter into gear, he/she soon learns how much faster they can shift,......trust me!, I can shift a Keisler faster than I could any of my other 4 spd equipped Mopars........it takes more than a few days to break you old habits,....esp 3rd gear! 
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Tremec weighs 95 lbs ,and the aluminum bell puts it well under alu A833 and iron bell . 
