I would pull the dist and have 20 put in it on a machine, pull the valve covers and see if you have adjustable rockers, are they too tight, if not adjustable are the valves actually closing? Don't laugh, I have seen tons of engines with big cams and your complaints have this problem, I take it the engine builder was a non Mopar shop so check it. I can't see you needing more than a 65 jet in the middle carb and a .040 idle feed in the rears, rear main jetting should be good stock. Fix the idle first, always. In a nutshell, make sure the valves are closing, get the timing right, THEN work on, blame the carbs.

Quote:

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Well I pulled the intake tonight and what do you know the two ports that seemed like a leak when I sprayed it were missing about 3/4 of an inch of rtv at the top of the gasket so it was sucking air through both of them so that is probably the cause of the low vaccum and the reason we would get the run on when we shut it off and could not lower the idle rpm enough. Sucks when you have an engine assembled by the machine shop only to have to rip the top of it off!
But since I have it apart I thougt I would make sure I get all the carb settings the way you guys think would be best for the combo.
I went to a 4.5 pv, the jets in it are 63's and the squirter in the center carb is a 32(this is my first six pack so still learning it over the 4 barrels I have done in the past, do the outbords have squirters? I did not see any and I would assume there are jets in the outboards too?) But what should I run for the jets to be safe but not too fat? some guys have said 70's on the jets and 33-35 on the squirters. What color springs in the secondaries? I will set the timing at 14 intial and go for 36 total. I will see how it runs and if it pings at all and move the timing up until it talks to me a little and then back it off. Should I plug the vaccum advance or run it?

Just want to get it close while it is on the bench as I don't really want to tear it apart again on the car as those fuel lines are kind of a pain to get a wrench onto as it seems like there is always a vaccum line in the way.

Plus one thing

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Another thing that I can't stop thinking of, is to make sure the vac advance is not on a full vacuum source. Will cause many drivability issues if not set up properly. Make sure the line goes to the side of the center carb metering block. Not a base plate.

It's really a disappointment the way several folks on here behave badly. It isn't just this thread it's many others.

With that said...to the OP

Read this document and follow it, then come back and ask for help as there is way too much mud slinging at the wall and at others.

If there was a real tech archives on here this document should be at the top. Many folks have contributed to this document and it works. If anyone finds a mistake or typo please pm me so the document can be corrected.

This is a guide to tune six packs for street engines.
Revised 10-2012
Stroker or non stroker, big block or small block.
Never the final word, but close enough for now, it gets updated from time to time.

WARNING

Gasoline is flammable and will burn you

Carbon monoxide is produced from running cars
Esp. improperly tuned six pak cars.

USE A CO ALARM IN THE WORK AREA!!!!!!!!



This is not for the faint of heart. If you wondered why people shy away from six paks just read on.

When tuned properly Six pak cars turn on! faster & run far better than single 4 barrel cars exc a thermoquad. If you want your six pak car to run like it should do the dance and have the right tools to make it happen. Patience must be used throughout the process. Much of the information here can be used on a 4 barrel as well.

Some theory of operation:

Things to Remember:

Six pak engines run AND idle on all three carbs at all times.

The outboard are always contributing fuel…always

Only the center carb has an acceleration pump

The car must idle and run/drive like a normal car before attempting any secondary action or wide open throttle passes.

Whacking the throttle in neutral to see if the outboards open is not a legitimate test!!!

Over jetting will not allow you to get the idle mixture correct as the jet size does contribute to what happens in the idle circuit. Please review the theory of operation in the Mopar Performance Engine book.

Tools needed: A good vacuum gage, quality tach in the car and dial back timing light/digital tach [snap on timing light with numeric readout].

A good ignition system.

MSD, Mallory chrome mopar box, NO orange boxes unless you know for sure it is early 80’s vintage. Anything made after 1988 is questionable.

Quality distributor cap & rotor
Firecore spark plug wires
Spark plugs of the proper heat range. Clean and gapped
0.040 mopar box
0.050 msd cd type ignition
Engine well grounded to the body & battery.
Vacuum adv distributor with heavy enough springs to hold advance until 1200 rpm.
The distributor phasing has been checked and corrected as necessary IMPORTANT
Distributor vacuum port on carb disconnected and plugged at carb


ATTENTION -195 degree high flow thermostat- ATTENTION
THIS IS IMPORTANT

60%water-40% coolant with a bottle of water wetter
Stewart components has the best thermostats

Pay attention here: If you run a lower temp thermostat, raw fuel will collect in the intake. That fuel burns off in the cruise mode and the air-fuel mixture goes lean.
This is transparent unless the a-f ratio is being monitored with a wideband a-f meter
There will be problems getting it to idle and drivability.

Make sure the timing is 15 - 18 deg btdc [advance] at idle. THIS IS IMPORTANT
Set the timing marks at 15 btdc and align the leading edge of the rotor with the LEADING EDGE of the cap contact-this is one reason the phasing was checked.
Car in neutral-auto or 4 sp, emergency brake set.
A good quality vacuum gage is required
Connect vacuum gauge to direct manifold vacuum source.

The heat crossover should be blocked on big & small blocks
Note: in temps below 40 degree it will take a good while to get the car warmed up. Block heaters will eliminate the long warm ups.

Automatic cars: be sure there is enough stall in the torque converter or the car may be a real pig idling in gear and have poor get-up & go.

Beware of mopar orange ignition control boxes that retard the timing etc. Orange boxes built after 1988 tend to have issues.

Preparation: on the work bench
Outboards: Remove the lead plugs
Set the outboards idle adj screws out 1/8 turn ccw THIS IS IMPORTANT
Be careful when seating the idle screws to set them before the 1/8 setting. Gently is the word. If you look inside the carb bore you will see the needles poking in ever-so-slightly. They should be equal.

Install the BLACK springs – Just do it, ignore everything else you have read.
Install the BLACK springs – Just do it, ignore everything else you have read.
Yes I repeated that, explained way below

If you have the jetable metering plates, If so read their instructions and follow them.

Center carb
Set the center carb idle adjustment screws at 1.5 turns out [ccw] THIS IS IMPORTANT
Be sure to adjust the idle screw until the throttle blades are closed and the transfer slot is exposed no larger than a square. [Carb will have to be off the car to see this] You only want about .040" of the transfer slots exposed below the throttle plates. If the idle screw is adjusted too high, you will be into the transition circuit, exposing too much of the vertical rectangular slot. Many times the idle screw is adjusted incorrectly to compensate for other issues. This puts the carb into the transition circuit and at that point you have no mixture control on the center carb.

If you have new carbs (untouched) they will have 62 jets in the center carb & a 6.5hg power valve. Starting point jetting stock 340 use 62’s, highly modified or stroker use 64’s, big blocks start with 64, stroker 65.

You must know what power valve is in the center carb. Typically a 6.5

Reminder 195 degree thermostat required.

Temporarily change out the brass sight plug on the fuel bowls (all 3) with clear sight plugs, to see the float level without any gas spills. See thru sight plugs deteriorate quickly so use only as a tuning aid. Do not leave them installed on the the carbs.

Do not use an idle solenoid to set idle rpm.
A properly tuned car will have no “run on” issues

Factory style linkage, no progressive/ mechanical linkages!
Installation: use the gaskets made by oh company spec p/n
Do not over torque bolts.
Make sure the linkage is set properly. The rods should fall into the hole on the carb lever at the idle setting position.
Check the linkage for any binding, manually open the center carb to wot and see if the secondaries will rotate open.
Have an assistant floor the gas pedal and check for wide open throttle

Fuel pump: Carter street pump only.
Factory style fuel lines only.
Use rubber hose only for tuning purposes, typically on the front carb as this is the carb you remove to rejet the ctr. .
Fuel filter should be in the stock location.

Ready set go

Start car & allow engine to reach operating temp. Set idle to 1000 rpm

Fuel level adjustment THIS IS IMPORTANT, this is best done idling at 900 - 1100 rpm
The slotted screw on top of the needle n seat is just a lock screw.
To adj the float level loosen the lock screw to rotate the seat nut.
Turning the adjuster nut counter clockwise will RAISE fuel level in the bowl,
Clockwise will LOWER it
Make only small 1/2 turns and wait 3 or more minutes so the fuel levels off before rechecking level. Patience is a must!!

FUEL LEVELS
Center carb the fuel level is at the bottom of the sight plug hole
Secondaries just starting to come over the bottom of the sight plug hole
This is critical so get it right.

Set idle for 900 rpm
If the car won’t idle:
Is engine vacuum reading at least 2 hg higher than the power valve rating? If ok proceed, if not correct power valve issue and proceed.
Note some engines only pull 5 hg of vacuum so use a 2.5 power valve.
Advance the initial timing a bit to see if it helps idle.
Be sure operating temp is 195-210
Be sure there are not light springs in the distributor.

Now set the initial timing to where it wants to be. Somewhere between 10-20 degrees BTDC. The engine will tell you by increasing vacuum and rpm at this point. In some applications the engine does not care, so set it to 12-14 degrees BTDC.


Rule of Thumb Chart:
Cams with 106-degree ctrlines seem to like initial timing set at 16-22 BTDC
Cams with 108-degree ctrlines seem to like initial timing set at 12-18 BTDC
Cams with 110-114 degree ctrlines seem to like initial timing set at 8-14 BTDC

Re-Set the idle rpm for 8-900-See if you have "control" over the idle mixture screws on the ctr carb.

Using a good vacuum gage adj center carb mixture to highest reading of vacuum.
This is where the digital [numeric readout] tach is better than the vacuum gage as you can see the instantaneous rpm. If you do not have control over the idle mixture between 1-2 turns out ccw of the mixture screws there are issues that need to be taken care of before proceeding. Over jetting contributes to this problem.

Typically if you have the center carb idle mixture screws between 1 to 2 turns ccw and the idle mixture/rpm properly set you may not have to adjust the outboard idle mixture any further.

If you are 2 turns out on the ctr carb idle mixture screws and the idle is still too lean - the outboards need to contribute more fuel to the idle. Open the idle mixture screws on the outboard carbs another 1/8 turn ccw. Now they will be out a total of ¼ of a turn ccw. Now go back and reset the idle mixture and rpm.
If you need richen the idle mixture-set the idle mix to 1.0 turns out ccw

Starting with the front carb, adj the mixture screws one at a time 1/8 turn ccw, after turning each screw wait and see what the engine vacuum and rpm do. Obviously if you have a wideband a-f gauge you will see what is happening. It’s a balancing act, just remember about the ctr carb and it’s proper settings. Also remember you have ½ turn ccw left in the ctr carb to richen the overall mixture. The end spark plugs will indicate of the out boards are to lean #s 1&7 / 2&8.

If the idle is too rich no matter what you do…Most times you are over jetted or you have other issues. Over jetted carbs will have poor idle control. At idle fuel flows from the float chamber thru the main jet then into a the small angular but horizontal passage that leads across to a vertical passage and onto the idle feed restriction where it is mixed with the air coming in from the idle bleed. Remember this. Do not over jet!

Beware of other issues such as poor intake sealing, carb gaskets backwards, the wrong pcv valve, a vacuum leak from the brake booster or other places, wrong pwr valve, wrong thermostat etc.

Recheck idle rpm and set to 8-900

Drive car like a normal person, no wide open throttle. Is the car rich? Jet down 2 steps until you find the min jet size. You will know when you are lean as you will have no power.

Now reset the initial timing again. Somewhere between 10-20 degrees BTDC. The engine will tell you by increasing vacuum and rpm some point and then falling off. In some applications the engine does not care, so see chart.

Re-Set the rpm for 900-See if you have "control" over the idle mixture screws. Using a good vacuum gage adj each mixture screw to highest reading of vacuum. If you have a wideband afr meter set to 14.7. If you don’t like this number set it at your number reading. See how close you are between the vac gauge and af meter and digital tach.

Recheck idle rpm and set to 800-950 depending on engine build, hook up vac adv and make sure car still runs/drives properly.

How do you know when you are "there”?
If the car gets up and goes seamlessly you are there
The engine when hot soaked restarts immediately without touching the throttle
The car will idle at 700-900 rpm in neutral and the response is crisp.
There is no smell of raw gas in the exhaust.
The bottom of the intake is not soaked with fuel. Open a carb and look in
The spark plugs are clean and white.
The engine when cold starts easily runs and drives smoothly from the get go.
When the engine is rev’d and the throttle released it immediately returns to idle.
The vacuum advance is hooked up and the car drives well.

OK if you made it this far it’s time for the Secondaries

The reason you put the black spring is to delay the opening of the secondaries until the engine is ready for it. The engine will run fine on just the center carb till at least 3000 rpm. The air fuel mixture spikes lean when the secondaries open, but at higher rpms this is transparent and has no affect on performance. The opening of the secondaries should be seamless, but very apparent and usually scary to the uninitiated.
Some cars may enjoy a lighter spring.

The secondaries rods should be disconnected and removed and the vac signal blocked.

Please do this safely and with regard for others….
Go out and drive the car on the center carb and determine what rpm the car starts to fall off in power. Take note.
The car should have a ton of power just with the center carb.
Be sure to several wot runs.
Please do this safely and with regard for others…

Reconnect carb linkage and vac lines; be sure to set the length of the rods properly.
Now go for a drive and see what rpm the six pak hits.
Please do this safely and with regard for others….
Hold first gear or 2nd gear, run up to 2500 rpm, and floor it. What should happen is the secondaries open without any hesitation and the cars gets up and really goes.

The long vacuum hoses for the outboard carbs need to be exactly the same length.

Pulling a vacuum on the hose should make the vacuum pod open the throttle blade and hold a vacuum

The best way to dial in the secondary air fuel ratio is with a wide band air fuel meter.
A fine tuned seatofthepantsometer and spark plug reading will work for the more experienced.

If you made it this far and the car is bogging when the six pak opens you need to go back and recheck starting at the top. Bogs are usually from the secondaries opening too soon!!

Notes:
Automatic cars with too tight of a converter will cause significant idle rpm drops when in drive, the car will not run at it’s full potential so be sure to use the correct converter for the application.

Some cars like staggered jetting.

Reminder 195 degree thermostat required.

If car spits fuel out of the vent[s] it means the o ring on the needle seat is bad.

It’s always easier to remove the front carb for rejetting.
Tape over intake and make sure there is never any unaccounted for hardware.

If you are using a wideband O2 meter you will see a lean spike when the secondaries open. It should be small and you should not feel it.

Do not use Teflon tape or any other sealers on the flare fittings. A drop of light oil on the threads is a good ides



If the initial timing exceeds 12 degrees BTDC with a MP distributor typically the advance curve will need to be modified so the total timing is not more than 34 degrees BTDC.

Chart to shorten the slots if you have a non adjustable mopar distributor.
Distributor degrees X 2 + initial= total
18 initial plus 14
32-36 total advance typically, every car is different.
There should be no advance until 1200 rpm
Then the advance should increase slowly until it is “all in” at 2400rpm for lighter cars - 2800 rpm - heavier cars

Dist. degrees / slot size
6.............. .340
7............... .355
8............... .375
9............... .390
10.............. .405
11.5 ........... .420
12.............. .435
13.............. .445
14.............. .460
15.............. .475
16.............. .490
17.............. .505
18.............. .520


There are 2 basic plates in the distributor one that has 11deg advance and one that is 17. The slot length on all is .480.

We really need to know which list # your carbs are, the list number is stamped on the passenger side rear on the center carb and maybe in the same place on the outboards There are a bunch of different lists number carbs, 340, 440, CA clean air carbs, stick shift, automatic carbs and different carb. numbers for each year and trans as well as the newer Holley replacemnet carbs. None of them are the same on the jetting and stock set up Post those numbers up and I will look in the Holley master guide for the original jetting, squirters and so on, most of the carbs where set up lean, especially the outboards carbs. Take the fuel bowls off the outboard carbs. and look at the part number stamp into the metering plates and post those The vacume springs on the outboard carbs. are kind of which ones do you like, a trial and error testing method, I have used the fast (weak ones)ones, they bog and the stock ones(thicker wires), they open slower and don't bog

Tom Quad has some inciteful information. I have a question on the following:

Chart to shorten the slots if you have a non adjustable mopar distributor.
Distributor degrees X 2 + initial= total
18 initial plus 14
32-36 total advance typically, every car is different.
There should be no advance until 1200 rpm
Then the advance should increase slowly until it is “all in” at 2400rpm for lighter cars - 2800 rpm - heavier cars

Should the advance be faster if the compression ratio is lower for today's gas?

I am not trying to contradict Tom Quad as he is always helpful, but Mr Six Pack, Bob Karakashian uses a 160 degree thermostat in his pure stock 6 pack Super Bee, and does not think the 195 is required...

He also recommends 38 -40 degrees total timing and no vacuum advance for performance use. Granted he does run real race gas and has 11 to 1 compression which is allowed in pure stock.

Good luck with it!

Arnie

Michael,after two pages,you should be totally confused by now !!!

As I was working on the carbs(put in a 4.5 pv, 68 jets and 34 squirters) I was trying to adjust the linkage on the center carb that looks like a vent and it broke. What is that? it goes from the top of the center carb over to the linkage and the throttle hits it when it is all the way forward to push a check valve down on the top of the bowl that vents out the side of the bowl. I have been looking all over online to get abother one and I can not find it anywhere

Bowl vent arm,you'll get it here for less than from Holley, http://www.chicagocorvette.net/ Ask for Robert,he will know what you need.Just be sure you tell him which bowl,with or without vent tube.

Well I finally got time to get it all put back together and took it out for a test drive. On a 15 mph roll when I stomp on it it bogs for a split second and then leaves a strip of black marks and finally pulls almost like it should. Not quite there but much much better. I think it needs a little more timing but my problem that I can not fix is a very very fast idle when I advance the timing.

But I can not get this motor to idle under 1200-1300 rpm even with the throttle screw backed all the way out. Even when I had the carbs off working on them the center carb throttle plate is always open a little bit, you can not even get it close all the way if you push it. Is this normal?? I always thought the plates closed all? would a heavier spring help? I have an orange spring on it and when I have it running and pull it as far forward as I can it will drop a tiny bit but still is way too high. How can I slow this thing down as it needs the timing but then that makes it idle too fast and when I go to shut it off if it is not in gear it will have the motor run on. Any more help??

Do any of the throttle plates have a small (1/8") hole drilled in them ?

They are supposed to be rebuilt 1971 date carbs I bought from a company that remans the carbs. I just took the car up to have a new exhaust put on it so it is not here right now to get the part #'s. But what could I use to seal up those holes? do you put some tape on the back side of it and put some jb weld in it from the top and then remove the tape when dry? or will rtv work? I would be worried about the fuel with that? Thanks