|
Re: 440 Six Pack won't run for crap
[Re: lokalik]
#1443514
05/29/13 10:37 PM
05/29/13 10:37 PM
|
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,097
Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
|
I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,097
Bend,OR USA
|
Quote:
each motor is different. don't think just because everyone says to run 16 to 18 intial and 36 to 38 total is correct, this is abunch of b/s. my 383 6pk loves 22 inital and runs great with48 total. i run 70's with a 33 squrt, point is find out what works for your gig. standard usual b/s can be a baseline and thats all. i'm not saying that there aren't issues at play here however, there is a correct starting point and then work from there. i'll see if i can get you this tech archive but ANYONE on this site that has a 6pk has read this article, it helped me a bunch. can't figure out how to link the tuning info to you. get a hold of DAYCLONA, member here, he is the one who posted it, great tuning info, follow it step by step. hope this helps.
Are you running straight alcholol with 48 degrees total timing? If not and your running gasoline did you verify the TDC marks and the timing marks on your balancer on your motor? If no to either maybe you should  
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
|
|
|
Re: 440 Six Pack won't run for crap
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#1443515
05/29/13 10:45 PM
05/29/13 10:45 PM
|
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 2,537
PORT ALBERNI , BC., CANADA
superwrench
master
|
master
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 2,537
PORT ALBERNI , BC., CANADA
|
Quote:
Quote:
each motor is different. don't think just because everyone says to run 16 to 18 intial and 36 to 38 total is correct, this is abunch of b/s. my 383 6pk loves 22 inital and runs great with48 total. i run 70's with a 33 squrt, point is find out what works for your gig. standard usual b/s can be a baseline and thats all. i'm not saying that there aren't issues at play here however, there is a correct starting point and then work from there. i'll see if i can get you this tech archive but ANYONE on this site that has a 6pk has read this article, it helped me a bunch. can't figure out how to link the tuning info to you. get a hold of DAYCLONA, member here, he is the one who posted it, great tuning info, follow it step by step. hope this helps.
Are you running straight alcholol with 48 degrees total timing? If not and your running gasoline did you verify the TDC marks and the timing marks on your balancer on your motor? If no to either maybe you should
Sorta what I thought too Cab....wasn't getting pissy or anything...just couldn't see how that would work with a gas motor...but...every thing is different I guess... 
|
|
|
Re: 440 Six Pack won't run for crap
[Re: superwrench]
#1443516
05/29/13 11:34 PM
05/29/13 11:34 PM
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,159
CT
GTX MATT
master
|
master
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,159
CT
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
each motor is different. don't think just because everyone says to run 16 to 18 intial and 36 to 38 total is correct, this is abunch of b/s. my 383 6pk loves 22 inital and runs great with48 total. i run 70's with a 33 squrt, point is find out what works for your gig. standard usual b/s can be a baseline and thats all. i'm not saying that there aren't issues at play here however, there is a correct starting point and then work from there. i'll see if i can get you this tech archive but ANYONE on this site that has a 6pk has read this article, it helped me a bunch. can't figure out how to link the tuning info to you. get a hold of DAYCLONA, member here, he is the one who posted it, great tuning info, follow it step by step. hope this helps.
Are you running straight alcholol with 48 degrees total timing? If not and your running gasoline did you verify the TDC marks and the timing marks on your balancer on your motor? If no to either maybe you should
Sorta what I thought too Cab....wasn't getting pissy or anything...just couldn't see how that would work with a gas motor...but...every thing is different I guess...
Hes probably running 48 with the vacuum advance hooked up and pulling full advance
Now I need to pin those needles, got to feel that heat
Hear my motor screamin while I'm tearin up the street
|
|
|
Re: 440 Six Pack won't run for crap
[Re: GTX MATT]
#1443520
05/30/13 12:30 AM
05/30/13 12:30 AM
|
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 797
arizona, usa
lokalik
super stock
|
super stock
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 797
arizona, usa
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
each motor is different. don't think just because everyone says to run 16 to 18 intial and 36 to 38 total is correct, this is abunch of b/s. my 383 6pk loves 22 inital and runs great with48 total. i run 70's with a 33 squrt, point is find out what works for your gig. standard usual b/s can be a baseline and thats all. i'm not saying that there aren't issues at play here however, there is a correct starting point and then work from there. i'll see if i can get you this tech archive but ANYONE on this site that has a 6pk has read this article, it helped me a bunch. can't figure out how to link the tuning info to you. get a hold of DAYCLONA, member here, he is the one who posted it, great tuning info, follow it step by step. hope this helps.
Are you running straight alcholol with 48 degrees total timing? If not and your running gasoline did you verify the TDC marks and the timing marks on your balancer on your motor? If no to either maybe you should
Sorta what I thought too Cab....wasn't getting pissy or anything...just couldn't see how that would work with a gas motor...but...every thing is different I guess...
Hes probably running 48 with the vacuum advance hooked up and pulling full advance
total timing is just that. a total of all. what kind of time frame are you talking about on the mains and the metal transfer for a street motor? this info is new to me and probably others as well. can you help us out?
|
|
|
Re: 440 Six Pack won't run for crap
[Re: lokalik]
#1443522
05/30/13 12:41 AM
05/30/13 12:41 AM
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,159
CT
GTX MATT
master
|
master
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,159
CT
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
each motor is different. don't think just because everyone says to run 16 to 18 intial and 36 to 38 total is correct, this is abunch of b/s. my 383 6pk loves 22 inital and runs great with48 total. i run 70's with a 33 squrt, point is find out what works for your gig. standard usual b/s can be a baseline and thats all. i'm not saying that there aren't issues at play here however, there is a correct starting point and then work from there. i'll see if i can get you this tech archive but ANYONE on this site that has a 6pk has read this article, it helped me a bunch. can't figure out how to link the tuning info to you. get a hold of DAYCLONA, member here, he is the one who posted it, great tuning info, follow it step by step. hope this helps.
Are you running straight alcholol with 48 degrees total timing? If not and your running gasoline did you verify the TDC marks and the timing marks on your balancer on your motor? If no to either maybe you should
Sorta what I thought too Cab....wasn't getting pissy or anything...just couldn't see how that would work with a gas motor...but...every thing is different I guess...
Hes probably running 48 with the vacuum advance hooked up and pulling full advance
total timing is just that. a total of all. what kind of time frame are you talking about on the mains and the metal transfer for a street motor? this info is new to me and probably others as well. can you help us out?
When people refer to total timing they do not usually refer to what the vacuum advance has in it, as it does nothing at full throttle (because vacuum is 0). The phrase total timing usually refers to total mechanical timing, meaning your base/idle timing + whatever advance is in the distributor. You probably have 34 degrees total mechanical timing.
This is why people unplug vacuum advance when they set timing.
Last edited by GTX MATT; 05/30/13 12:43 AM.
Now I need to pin those needles, got to feel that heat
Hear my motor screamin while I'm tearin up the street
|
|
|
Re: 440 Six Pack won't run for crap
[Re: lokalik]
#1443525
05/30/13 03:41 AM
05/30/13 03:41 AM
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,159
CT
GTX MATT
master
|
master
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,159
CT
|
Quote:
you are assuming that people don't figure vac adv into total because of a full throttle condition. how many street cars are driven at full throttle? i know that vac adv has nothing to do with full throttle and there are street cars that don't run vac adv because of low vac and they don't run full throttle( all in by 2500 rpm, thats not full throttle on my car) however, that does not mean that the phrase total advance does not include vac adv even if you think that is the case USUALLY. don't say that vac adv is not part of total adv timing, it is. depending if you use vac adv or not because of YOUR motor set up is up to you, rewriting what total is, is not up to you. keep it straight and don't give wrong info. apply the correct info to your specific needs. still waiting for the info on the mains and metal transfer and why that happens.
I don't believe I specified anywhere that you should run X total timing, but either way it doesn't really matter. The first rule of setting timing is to disconnect the vacuum advance. This is probably also part of why its commonly accepted to not include vacuum advance in your total advance number, in addition to the fact that the vacuum advance really doesn't matter for full throttle performance. Also, I happen to like vacuum advance on a street car because it does make it feel much stronger part throttle, so I agree with you 100 percent there. But the way you phrased it, and you can tell by the reaction of other members, sounds like you are running 48 degrees of mechanical timing. I don't THINK this is the case, this IS the case, and why you telling people to run 48 degrees of timing sounds ridiculous. And I don't know why you're telling me anything when I'm the one who knew what you were talking about.
I haven't rewritten anything, this is what is commonly accepted. That's why you are constantly hearing people say to run 34-38 total. When they say this they mean MECHANICAL ADVANCE ONLY. If EVERYONE ELSE is wrong, its probably you who is actually wrong. That is why everyone quickly seemed appalled that you're running a claimed 48 total. Surely 24ish total mechanical timing that would come from running 34-38 degrees of total advance including vacuum would cause sluggish performance.
So what do you run for total mechanical timing? 
Now I need to pin those needles, got to feel that heat
Hear my motor screamin while I'm tearin up the street
|
|
|
Re: 440 Six Pack won't run for crap
[Re: screamindriver]
#1443527
05/30/13 05:21 PM
05/30/13 05:21 PM
|
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 2,537
PORT ALBERNI , BC., CANADA
superwrench
master
|
master
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 2,537
PORT ALBERNI , BC., CANADA
|
Quote:
Here's the usual six pack on here  ... 
Well....the "Argument" seems to be what and what is not total advance.....I think the OP has enough proper info to continue.....we don't know how it's going to run until he gets a couple of things resolved. As long as he doesn't figure the timing out the "other" way...
|
|
|
Re: 440 Six Pack won't run for crap
[Re: vette1986]
#1443528
05/30/13 11:11 PM
05/30/13 11:11 PM
|
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,347
Wahoo Nebr
vette1986
OP
pro stock
|
OP
pro stock
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,347
Wahoo Nebr
|
Well I pulled the intake tonight and what do you know the two ports that seemed like a leak when I sprayed it were missing about 3/4 of an inch of rtv at the top of the gasket so it was sucking air through both of them so that is probably the cause of the low vaccum and the reason we would get the run on when we shut it off and could not lower the idle rpm enough. Sucks when you have an engine assembled by the machine shop only to have to rip the top of it off!
But since I have it apart I thougt I would make sure I get all the carb settings the way you guys think would be best for the combo.
I went to a 4.5 pv, the jets in it are 63's and the squirter in the center carb is a 32(this is my first six pack so still learning it over the 4 barrels I have done in the past, do the outbords have squirters? I did not see any and I would assume there are jets in the outboards too?) But what should I run for the jets to be safe but not too fat? some guys have said 70's on the jets and 33-35 on the squirters. What color springs in the secondaries? I will set the timing at 14 intial and go for 36 total. I will see how it runs and if it pings at all and move the timing up until it talks to me a little and then back it off. Should I plug the vaccum advance or run it?
Just want to get it close while it is on the bench as I don't really want to tear it apart again on the car as those fuel lines are kind of a pain to get a wrench onto as it seems like there is always a vaccum line in the way.
Plus one thing
1969.5 A12 Bee EV2
1971 Charger RT
1973 Duster tubbed 500 low deck 10.90 monster
3 440 polara vert projects
|
|
|
Re: 440 Six Pack won't run for crap
[Re: vette1986]
#1443529
05/30/13 11:42 PM
05/30/13 11:42 PM
|
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
|
Circle Track
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
|
Progress  I'd get a new metal valley pan gasket & mock it up with the paper side gaskets on both sides & see if the ports/bolt holes line up. A member here "topside" iirc sells .015" thin paper gaskets for cheap & I use Permatex spray gasket cement #99MA "high tack" the red stuff on those gaskets. If using no paper gaskets then I use a LIGHT/EVEN coat of Permatex #1 around each of the 8 port openings in the valley pan on both sides. People have installed em dry/as is with no paper or cement & had no vacuum leaks (requires flat/parallel mating surfaces. Holler how it runs as you continue tuning
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
|
|
|
Re: 440 Six Pack won't run for crap
[Re: vette1986]
#1443530
05/30/13 11:47 PM
05/30/13 11:47 PM
|
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 581
Wisconsin
beecrazy69
mopar
|
mopar
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 581
Wisconsin
|
Vette1986, Sux you had a problem, but glad to see you found it! Think of the Six Pack as an expanded vacuum secondary 4 barrel carb. The front half of a Holley 4 barrel is the center carb of a 6pak, the rear half of a Holley 4 barrel is the end carbs. End carbs have metering plates, not metering blocks (similar to small Holley 4barrels) and NO squirters. The metering plates have jets but they are not replaceable stock, they are drilled orifices in the plate (aftermarket sells plates with replaceable jets...Promax) It idles on all 6 throttle plates. It runs on the center carb at lower throttle openings. Runs on all throttle plates at WOT. The end throttle plates open due to higher venturi vacuum (air moving fast through the center carb) in the center carb, the vacuum hose that Ts to all the carbs tranfers the vacuum. The vacuum must overcome the secondary springs, the firmer the spring, the later and slower the end carbs start to open. Hope my ramblings make sense 
|
|
|
|
|
